[SoA2064] Adept Focus - Dumpshock Forums

[SoA2064] Adept Focus, Can someone splain this to me

Options

Crimson Jack

Nov 21 2004, 08:30 PM

Post #1

Running Target

Group: Members
Posts: 1,129
Joined: 11-June 03
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 4,712

QUOTE

It increases the bonded adept's effective Magic attribute by its Force. This does not grant adepts additional power points, but does affect the amount they can have active at a time, as well as... blah blah blah

Huh? Color me stupid, but I'm not sure exactly what this means. :-?

edit: Is the *only* point of the Adept Focus to affect tests, drain resistance and ranges that use the Magic attribute?

Kanada Ten View Member Profile	Nov 21 2004, 08:32 PM Post #2
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826	One can only have active a number of Power Points in adpet powers equal to the Magic Attribute (plus the Adept Focus rating). [edit] Beyond use with the Infusion Focus, the Adept Focus also counters Magic Loss and allows one to use powers purchased without initiation (1 PP per 20 Karma).

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Nov 21 2004, 08:36 PM Post #3
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	That doesn't mean a whole lot of anything anymore. It did back when Bioware created a "virtual" Magic Loss, but now it doesn't amount to anything since any Magic you lose also results in the loss of Adept Powers. The only other use of the hideously overpriced focus is that it allows you to have a power with a rating higher than your normal Magic Attribute. For instance, you can have Improved Ability 10 when using a rating 4 focus even if your Magic Attribute is normally only 6. But beyond that, it affects so few powers in any significant way that it's a total waste. You're way better off investing the Karma in a grade of initiation or something.

mfb View Member Profile	Nov 21 2004, 08:37 PM Post #4
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	not quite. the maximum levels of any power cannot exceed your Magic attribute. the craziness in SR3 about not being able to have more power points than you have Magic is full of weasles, since the very next sentence talks about buying more power points (which doesn't raise your Magic score). and, yeah. that's pretty much the point of the adept focus. edit: alas, beaten by funk.

Kanada Ten

Nov 21 2004, 08:42 PM

Post #5

Beetle Eater

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826

QUOTE

That doesn't mean a whole lot of anything anymore. It did back when Bioware created a "virtual" Magic Loss, but now it doesn't amount to anything since any Magic you lose also results in the loss of Adept Powers.

I think that is a rules mistake since one can buy tons of powers not connected to the Magic Attribute, so it doesn't make any kind of sense to lose the actual Adept Powers or tie them further to it. IMO, obviously, but really one just loses the ability to use them.

QUOTE

the craziness in SR3 about not being able to have more power points than you have Magic is full of weasles, since the very next sentence talks about buying more power points (which doesn't raise your Magic score).

Active power points. I can have 6 point of powers active even if I have 7 points of powers total. I good example is Delay Damage at 1 point and Tracelss Walk and Gliding, also 1 point. I turn off Delay Damage and keep on the other two until I need Delay Damage at which point I switch the active ones out until I've released the delay damage.

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Nov 21 2004, 08:49 PM Post #6
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	I suppose if you're using the buying-with-Karma rules, it'll help out. From what I understand, you use either those rules or the initiation rules. The karma rules were just put in there so adepts could have some growth potential using nothing but the SR3 corebook.

Silver-Fang View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 05:25 AM Post #7
Target Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 8-February 05 Member No.: 7,069	Ok i havent got the book so i might be off base here , but what about Physical magicians ie adepts with spellcasting powers that cant go astral ? does it give them more spell casting power ?

Patrick Goodman

Feb 9 2005, 01:48 PM

Post #8

Tilting at Windmills

Group: Members
Posts: 1,636
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Amarillo, TX, CAS
Member No.: 388

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

I suppose if you're using the buying-with-Karma rules, it'll help out. From what I understand, you use either those rules or the initiation rules. The karma rules were just put in there so adepts could have some growth potential using nothing but the SR3 corebook.

This ruling never made sense to me, since it is strongly implied, if not outright specifically stated, in MITS that the Karma-for-power-points rule was meant to be used with the advanced rules from MITS. If they weren't, why would the Magician's Way adept's inability to buy power points with Karma be a big deal at all?

I've run my game with both rules in effect, and it hasn't been a problem. I fail to see why not using the Karma rules from the core book in addition to Initiation rules from MITS would be a problem. YMMV.

Fortune View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 04:46 PM Post #9
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	And I totally disallow the buying of Power Points rule from SR3 in my games. I like the Initiation rules, and think they stand just fine on their own.

Lindt View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 05:01 PM Post #10
Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105	Aye, its cheeper to init for a number of grades anyhow. And with that you get extra benifits.

Cochise View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 05:22 PM Post #11
Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376	That's only true when you commonly allow groups and / or ordeals ... with group and ordeals on every initiation it goes up to grade 8 or 9 IIRC, but self-initiation without ordeal (at least IMHO the most common way for a runner mage) the second initiation already is at 21 Karma ...

mfb

Feb 9 2005, 10:50 PM

Post #12

Immortal Elf

Group: Members
Posts: 11,410
Joined: 1-October 03
From: Pittsburgh
Member No.: 5,670

QUOTE (Silver-Fang)

Ok i havent got the book so i might be off base here , but what about Physical magicians ie adepts with spellcasting powers that cant go astral ? does it give them more spell casting power ?

no, it doesn't. a magician's way adept's effective Magic rating for the purposes of spellcasting/conjuring/etcetera is based on the number of power points he's sunk into Magical Power. the adept focus doesn't give you more levels of Magical Power, it gives you more points of actual Magic.

GentlemanLoser View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 11:03 PM Post #13
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 28-January 05 Member No.: 7,029	I agree with Patrick Goodman on the buying of power points. All I could find in MITS was that Migical way adepts are prohibited from doing this. The biggest drawback to the 'Do Everything' Class. Consider it another way. Mages can purchase additional powers (spells) with Karma without the need ot initiate. Why shouldn't Adpets? Initiation just provides other benefits.

Fortune

Feb 9 2005, 11:31 PM

Post #14

Immoral Elf

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486

From the Shadowrun FAQ ...

QUOTE

Question: SR3 allows adepts to purchase additional power points at a cost of 20 Good Karma points each. Does this mean that an adept can have more power points than his Magic attribute? Or does the purchased power point increase the adept's Magic? Can purchased power points be lost due to Magic loss? What happens if the adept's Magic is reduced to 0, but he still has powers left?

Response: Adepts who purchase power points with Karma do not get an extra Magic point with that power point. You only get that with initiation.
The power point for Karma rule was specifically included for players who do not use the advanced magic (initiation) rules. It is recommended that this rule be ignored if the initation rules in Magic in the Shadows are also being used. Any extra power points purchased with Karma do not count against the character's limit of (Magic attribute) number of power points.
When an adept loses Magic, he chooses which powers are lost; powers bought with Karma can be chosen instead of others. If an adept's Magic reaches 0, the adept loses all magical ability, period.

The 20-Karma rule was only introduced because the Initiation rules are not included in the SR3 core book, so that those people that only had access to that book could still viably play Adepts. In my opinion (and obviously not only mine), the two rules do not mix well when used in conjunction.

Patrick Goodman View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 12:12 AM Post #15
Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388	It may be in the FAQ, but that doesn't automatically make it right. I've sent a note to them regarding this; as soon as I get an answer, I'll post it.

Fortune View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 01:06 AM Post #16
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	I didn't say it was 'right'. I said that the FAQ ruling coincided with my own thinking on the subject. I provided the quoted ruling for the benefit of those people that may not as yet seen it.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 01:08 AM Post #17
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	i'm curious. why do you have a problem with mixing karma-buy and initiation? what problems have you run into, or forsee?

Patrick Goodman

Feb 10 2005, 03:15 AM

Post #18

Tilting at Windmills

Group: Members
Posts: 1,636
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Amarillo, TX, CAS
Member No.: 388

Here's the text of the email I sent to info@shadowrunrpg.com regarding the Karma rule in SR3.

QUOTE

I've come across what I believe to be an incorrect interpretation of certain rules regarding adept power points and the increase of same. First, I'll include the relevent entry from the FAQ for ease of reference. After that, I'll quote a small portion of the relevent sections of rules from SR3 and MITS, after which I'll state my rationale for my disagreement with this particular ruling.

QUOTE (Shadowrun FAQ)

SR3 allows adepts to purchase additional power points at a cost of 20 Good Karma points each. Does this mean that an adept can have more power points than his Magic attribute? Or does the purchased power point increase the adept's Magic? Can purchased power points be lost due to Magic loss? What happens if the adept's Magic is reduced to 0, but he still has powers left?

Adepts who purchase power points with Karma do not get an extra Magic point with that power point. You only get that with initiation.

The power point for Karma rule was specifically included for players who do not use the advanced magic (initiation) rules. It is recommended that this rule be ignored if the initation rules in Magic in the Shadows are also being used. Any extra power points purchased with Karma do not count against the character's limit of (Magic attribute) number of power points.

When an adept loses Magic, he chooses which powers are lost; powers bought with Karma can be chosen instead of others. If an adept's Magic reaches 0, the adept loses all magical ability, period.

QUOTE (Shadowrun 3rd Edition @ p. 168)

During game play, adepts may purchase additional Power Points at a cost of 20 Good Karma Points per Power Point.

QUOTE (Magic in the Shadows @ p. 24)

Magician adepts may not purchase Power Points with Karma, as other adepts can (p. 168, SR3).

It's my contention, and that of several others out there, that this single line in MITS indicates that the two rules are meant to co-exist peacefully, side-by-side in the game world. Power points bought with Karma are functionally equivalent to a mage spending Karma on new spells. Like the mage increasing his number of spells, the adept would still be limited by his Magic Rating, which has not increased. A mage/shaman doesn't need to initiate to buy more spells; an adept shouldn't have to initiate to gain more adept powers.

Even if they buy additional power points, the adept spending Karma that way gains none of the other advantages of initiation. No metamagic, no additional Magic rating...none of that. Without the increase in their Magic rating, they can still only have 6 points worth of powers going at a time, though they might have a wider selection of powers to rotate through. This, again, is analogous to a mage who doesn't initiate. Yeah, he's got more spells, but he's still limited to a Force of 6 before he risks harsh, physical Drain.

In short, I think that you should at least reconsider this FAQ item, and I would go so far as to suggest reversing it. While the reason you mention might have been the original rationale for the rule in SR3, I think that the reference rule from MITS shows that it wasn't the final intent.

Yours truly,
Patrick Goodman

As soon as I get a reply, I'll post it. (Should have made this its own thread, I'm thinking....)

{EDIT: Unfuxxored thanks to the much-appreciated advice of Cochise, who showed me the error of my coding ways.}

Patrick Goodman View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 03:18 AM Post #19
Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388	Okay, that's fugly. What's up with quote tags lately? I've had this problem, and so has Paul that I know of. Funky....

Cochise

Feb 10 2005, 03:46 AM

Post #20

Mr. Quote-function

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,316
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Somewhere in Germany
Member No.: 1,376

On this board you don't need quotation marks nor "who" to insert a name into the quote. It's

CODE

[quote=Name]text[/quote]

to get

QUOTE (Name)

Text

And one error in a quote tag pretty much f*cks up the whole posts, since the processor seems to ignore any other quote tag from that point on

And I'm not sure whether or not one or more quote-tags are missing ...

GentlemanLoser View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 08:22 AM Post #21
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 28-January 05 Member No.: 7,029	Morning! My thoughts on why that FAQ entry is wrong. 1) Why limit Adepts like that? Lets assume your GM says he uses the initiation rules and Adepts can only gain more powers by initiating. Mages don't need to inititate to gain more spells, just spend Karma. Inititating just porvides additional benefits. As mentioned above, if an Adept just buys more powers they lose out on rasing thier max power levels and access to a meta magic skill. Not to mention that a Mage can increase their spell casting potention by just bonding a power focus. Or that thier spell levels aren't limited by their magic score, they just take physical drain... 2) There is no rational reason to inforce this. Coupled with Adept powers having a fixed and not scaling cost. What sense does it make to have a Higher initiated Adept have to pay 10/100/1000 times the karma to learn improved Stealth: 2 compared to the first level initiate? Isn't the higher grade initiate supposed to have a better understanding and stronger connection to magic? Yet it's easier and quicker for lower level initiates to learn new powers... That's just bad... 3) It railroads all Adepts to become Magicians Way Adepts. If you've got to initiate multiple times to get more powers, you might as well be able to take more than 5 metamagic skills. And gain Spell Defense, spells, access to all foci, etc... Only for 5 more BPs... >_< Ugh. Speaking of number 3, you might just as well sink all your points into Magical Power, be a spell caster and use some of your Spell points to bond a couple of Adept focus to learn the powers you really want. And take Infusion as your first Metamagic. All the Adept powers you want... >_< Ugh.

Cochise

Feb 10 2005, 01:16 PM

Post #22

Mr. Quote-function

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,316
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Somewhere in Germany
Member No.: 1,376

QUOTE (GentlemanLoser)

3) It railroads all Adepts to become Magicians Way Adepts. If you've got to initiate multiple times to get more powers, you might as well be able to take more than 5 metamagic skills. And gain Spell Defense, spells, access to all foci, etc... Only for 5 more BPs... >_< Ugh.

Not with the "common" (and FAQ installed) interpretation that Magician Way Adpet can either get a power point or a metamagical skil ...

*No, I'm not going into the debate why this interpretation still doesn't appear to go with the rules as written to me => Don't ask, just use the search engine*

Patrick Goodman

Feb 10 2005, 01:34 PM

Post #23

Tilting at Windmills

Group: Members
Posts: 1,636
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Amarillo, TX, CAS
Member No.: 388

QUOTE (Cochise)

*No, I'm not going into the debate why this interpretation still doesn't appear to go with the rules as written to me => Don't ask, just use the search engine*

I've tried several searches on "adept power karma" on the entire forum, filtered both with and without your username, and come up with nothing. I'll try a Google later, unless you want to point me to the right thread. I am, obviously, interested.

Cochise View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 02:09 PM Post #24
Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376	Take a look here That's the last incarnation of that discussion that I remember to portray all sides on that issue ...

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 06:05 PM Post #25
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	So, when you use the rule of 20 karma for an extra power point known, that does not allow you to increase the number of powers you have active and thus you have to start switching some on and off, correct?

« Next Oldest · Shadowrun · Next Newest »