Full Version: [SoA2064] Adept Focus
| QUOTE |
| It increases the bonded adept's effective Magic attribute by its Force. This does not grant adepts additional power points, but does affect the amount they can have active at a time, as well as... blah blah blah |
Huh? Color me stupid, but I'm not sure exactly what this means.
edit: Is the *only* point of the Adept Focus to affect tests, drain resistance and ranges that use the Magic attribute?
One can only have active a number of Power Points in adpet powers equal to the Magic Attribute (plus the Adept Focus rating).
[edit] Beyond use with the Infusion Focus, the Adept Focus also counters Magic Loss and allows one to use powers purchased without initiation (1 PP per 20 Karma).
[edit] Beyond use with the Infusion Focus, the Adept Focus also counters Magic Loss and allows one to use powers purchased without initiation (1 PP per 20 Karma).
That doesn't mean a whole lot of anything anymore. It did back when Bioware created a "virtual" Magic Loss, but now it doesn't amount to anything since any Magic you lose also results in the loss of Adept Powers.
The only other use of the hideously overpriced focus is that it allows you to have a power with a rating higher than your normal Magic Attribute. For instance, you can have Improved Ability 10 when using a rating 4 focus even if your Magic Attribute is normally only 6.
But beyond that, it affects so few powers in any significant way that it's a total waste. You're way better off investing the Karma in a grade of initiation or something.
The only other use of the hideously overpriced focus is that it allows you to have a power with a rating higher than your normal Magic Attribute. For instance, you can have Improved Ability 10 when using a rating 4 focus even if your Magic Attribute is normally only 6.
But beyond that, it affects so few powers in any significant way that it's a total waste. You're way better off investing the Karma in a grade of initiation or something.
not quite. the maximum levels of any power cannot exceed your Magic attribute. the craziness in SR3 about not being able to have more power points than you have Magic is full of weasles, since the very next sentence talks about buying more power points (which doesn't raise your Magic score).
and, yeah. that's pretty much the point of the adept focus.
edit: alas, beaten by funk.
and, yeah. that's pretty much the point of the adept focus.
edit: alas, beaten by funk.
| QUOTE |
| That doesn't mean a whole lot of anything anymore. It did back when Bioware created a "virtual" Magic Loss, but now it doesn't amount to anything since any Magic you lose also results in the loss of Adept Powers. |
I think that is a rules mistake since one can buy tons of powers not connected to the Magic Attribute, so it doesn't make any kind of sense to lose the actual Adept Powers or tie them further to it. IMO, obviously, but really one just loses the ability to use them.
| QUOTE |
| the craziness in SR3 about not being able to have more power points than you have Magic is full of weasles, since the very next sentence talks about buying more power points (which doesn't raise your Magic score). |
Active power points. I can have 6 point of powers active even if I have 7 points of powers total. I good example is Delay Damage at 1 point and Tracelss Walk and Gliding, also 1 point. I turn off Delay Damage and keep on the other two until I need Delay Damage at which point I switch the active ones out until I've released the delay damage.
I suppose if you're using the buying-with-Karma rules, it'll help out. From what I understand, you use either those rules or the initiation rules. The karma rules were just put in there so adepts could have some growth potential using nothing but the SR3 corebook.
Ok i havent got the book so i might be off base here , but what about Physical magicians ie adepts with spellcasting powers that cant go astral ? does it give them more spell casting power ?
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| I suppose if you're using the buying-with-Karma rules, it'll help out. From what I understand, you use either those rules or the initiation rules. The karma rules were just put in there so adepts could have some growth potential using nothing but the SR3 corebook. |
This ruling never made sense to me, since it is strongly implied, if not outright specifically stated, in MITS that the Karma-for-power-points rule was meant to be used with the advanced rules from MITS. If they weren't, why would the Magician's Way adept's inability to buy power points with Karma be a big deal at all?
I've run my game with both rules in effect, and it hasn't been a problem. I fail to see why not using the Karma rules from the core book in addition to Initiation rules from MITS would be a problem. YMMV.
And I totally disallow the buying of Power Points rule from SR3 in my games. I like the Initiation rules, and think they stand just fine on their own.
Aye, its cheeper to init for a number of grades anyhow. And with that you get extra benifits.
That's only true when you commonly allow groups and / or ordeals ... with group and ordeals on every initiation it goes up to grade 8 or 9 IIRC, but self-initiation without ordeal (at least IMHO the most common way for a runner mage) the second initiation already is at 21 Karma ...
| QUOTE (Silver-Fang) |
| Ok i havent got the book so i might be off base here , but what about Physical magicians ie adepts with spellcasting powers that cant go astral ? does it give them more spell casting power ? |
no, it doesn't. a magician's way adept's effective Magic rating for the purposes of spellcasting/conjuring/etcetera is based on the number of power points he's sunk into Magical Power. the adept focus doesn't give you more levels of Magical Power, it gives you more points of actual Magic.
I agree with Patrick Goodman on the buying of power points. All I could find in MITS was that Migical way adepts are prohibited from doing this. The biggest drawback to the 'Do Everything' Class.
Consider it another way. Mages can purchase additional powers (spells) with Karma without the need ot initiate. Why shouldn't Adpets? Initiation just provides other benefits.
Consider it another way. Mages can purchase additional powers (spells) with Karma without the need ot initiate. Why shouldn't Adpets? Initiation just provides other benefits.
| QUOTE |
| Question: SR3 allows adepts to purchase additional power points at a cost of 20 Good Karma points each. Does this mean that an adept can have more power points than his Magic attribute? Or does the purchased power point increase the adept's Magic? Can purchased power points be lost due to Magic loss? What happens if the adept's Magic is reduced to 0, but he still has powers left? Response: Adepts who purchase power points with Karma do not get an extra Magic point with that power point. You only get that with initiation. The power point for Karma rule was specifically included for players who do not use the advanced magic (initiation) rules. It is recommended that this rule be ignored if the initation rules in Magic in the Shadows are also being used. Any extra power points purchased with Karma do not count against the character's limit of (Magic attribute) number of power points. When an adept loses Magic, he chooses which powers are lost; powers bought with Karma can be chosen instead of others. If an adept's Magic reaches 0, the adept loses all magical ability, period. |
The 20-Karma rule was only introduced because the Initiation rules are not included in the SR3 core book, so that those people that only had access to that book could still viably play Adepts. In my opinion (and obviously not only mine), the two rules do not mix well when used in conjunction.
It may be in the FAQ, but that doesn't automatically make it right. I've sent a note to them regarding this; as soon as I get an answer, I'll post it.
I didn't say it was 'right'. I said that the FAQ ruling coincided with my own thinking on the subject. I provided the quoted ruling for the benefit of those people that may not as yet seen it.
i'm curious. why do you have a problem with mixing karma-buy and initiation? what problems have you run into, or forsee?
Here's the text of the email I sent to info@shadowrunrpg.com regarding the Karma rule in SR3.
| QUOTE | ||||||
I've come across what I believe to be an incorrect interpretation of certain rules regarding adept power points and the increase of same. First, I'll include the relevent entry from the FAQ for ease of reference. After that, I'll quote a small portion of the relevent sections of rules from SR3 and MITS, after which I'll state my rationale for my disagreement with this particular ruling.
It's my contention, and that of several others out there, that this single line in MITS indicates that the two rules are meant to co-exist peacefully, side-by-side in the game world. Power points bought with Karma are functionally equivalent to a mage spending Karma on new spells. Like the mage increasing his number of spells, the adept would still be limited by his Magic Rating, which has not increased. A mage/shaman doesn't need to initiate to buy more spells; an adept shouldn't have to initiate to gain more adept powers. Even if they buy additional power points, the adept spending Karma that way gains none of the other advantages of initiation. No metamagic, no additional Magic rating...none of that. Without the increase in their Magic rating, they can still only have 6 points worth of powers going at a time, though they might have a wider selection of powers to rotate through. This, again, is analogous to a mage who doesn't initiate. Yeah, he's got more spells, but he's still limited to a Force of 6 before he risks harsh, physical Drain. In short, I think that you should at least reconsider this FAQ item, and I would go so far as to suggest reversing it. While the reason you mention might have been the original rationale for the rule in SR3, I think that the reference rule from MITS shows that it wasn't the final intent. Yours truly, Patrick Goodman |
As soon as I get a reply, I'll post it. (Should have made this its own thread, I'm thinking....)
{EDIT: Unfuxxored thanks to the much-appreciated advice of Cochise, who showed me the error of my coding ways.}
Okay, that's fugly. What's up with quote tags lately? I've had this problem, and so has Paul that I know of. Funky....
On this board you don't need quotation marks nor "who" to insert a name into the quote. It's
| CODE |
[quote=Name]text[/quote] |
to get
| QUOTE (Name) |
| Text |
And one error in a quote tag pretty much f*cks up the whole posts, since the processor seems to ignore any other quote tag from that point on
And I'm not sure whether or not one or more quote-tags are missing ...
Morning!
My thoughts on why that FAQ entry is wrong.
1) Why limit Adepts like that? Lets assume your GM says he uses the initiation rules and Adepts can only gain more powers by initiating. Mages don't need to inititate to gain more spells, just spend Karma. Inititating just porvides additional benefits. As mentioned above, if an Adept just buys more powers they lose out on rasing thier max power levels and access to a meta magic skill. Not to mention that a Mage can increase their spell casting potention by just bonding a power focus. Or that thier spell levels aren't limited by their magic score, they just take physical drain...
2) There is no rational reason to inforce this. Coupled with Adept powers having a fixed and not scaling cost. What sense does it make to have a Higher initiated Adept have to pay 10/100/1000 times the karma to learn improved Stealth: 2 compared to the first level initiate? Isn't the higher grade initiate supposed to have a better understanding and stronger connection to magic? Yet it's easier and quicker for lower level initiates to learn new powers... That's just bad...
3) It railroads all Adepts to become Magicians Way Adepts. If you've got to initiate multiple times to get more powers, you might as well be able to take more than 5 metamagic skills. And gain Spell Defense, spells, access to all foci, etc... Only for 5 more BPs... >_< Ugh.
Speaking of number 3, you might just as well sink all your points into Magical Power, be a spell caster and use some of your Spell points to bond a couple of Adept focus to learn the powers you really want.
And take Infusion as your first Metamagic.
All the Adept powers you want...
>_<
Ugh.
My thoughts on why that FAQ entry is wrong.
1) Why limit Adepts like that? Lets assume your GM says he uses the initiation rules and Adepts can only gain more powers by initiating. Mages don't need to inititate to gain more spells, just spend Karma. Inititating just porvides additional benefits. As mentioned above, if an Adept just buys more powers they lose out on rasing thier max power levels and access to a meta magic skill. Not to mention that a Mage can increase their spell casting potention by just bonding a power focus. Or that thier spell levels aren't limited by their magic score, they just take physical drain...
2) There is no rational reason to inforce this. Coupled with Adept powers having a fixed and not scaling cost. What sense does it make to have a Higher initiated Adept have to pay 10/100/1000 times the karma to learn improved Stealth: 2 compared to the first level initiate? Isn't the higher grade initiate supposed to have a better understanding and stronger connection to magic? Yet it's easier and quicker for lower level initiates to learn new powers... That's just bad...
3) It railroads all Adepts to become Magicians Way Adepts. If you've got to initiate multiple times to get more powers, you might as well be able to take more than 5 metamagic skills. And gain Spell Defense, spells, access to all foci, etc... Only for 5 more BPs... >_< Ugh.
Speaking of number 3, you might just as well sink all your points into Magical Power, be a spell caster and use some of your Spell points to bond a couple of Adept focus to learn the powers you really want.
And take Infusion as your first Metamagic.
All the Adept powers you want...
>_<
Ugh.
| QUOTE (GentlemanLoser) |
| 3) It railroads all Adepts to become Magicians Way Adepts. If you've got to initiate multiple times to get more powers, you might as well be able to take more than 5 metamagic skills. And gain Spell Defense, spells, access to all foci, etc... Only for 5 more BPs... >_< Ugh. |
Not with the "common" (and FAQ installed) interpretation that Magician Way Adpet can either get a power point or a metamagical skil ...
*No, I'm not going into the debate why this interpretation still doesn't appear to go with the rules as written to me => Don't ask, just use the search engine*
| QUOTE (Cochise) |
| *No, I'm not going into the debate why this interpretation still doesn't appear to go with the rules as written to me => Don't ask, just use the search engine* |
I've tried several searches on "adept power karma" on the entire forum, filtered both with and without your username, and come up with nothing. I'll try a Google later, unless you want to point me to the right thread. I am, obviously, interested.
Take a look here
That's the last incarnation of that discussion that I remember to portray all sides on that issue ...
That's the last incarnation of that discussion that I remember to portray all sides on that issue ...
So, when you use the rule of 20 karma for an extra power point known, that does not allow you to increase the number of powers you have active and thus you have to start switching some on and off, correct?
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| So, when you use the rule of 20 karma for an extra power point known, that does not allow you to increase the number of powers you have active and thus you have to start switching some on and off, correct? |
Correct. You still have to use your Magic rating as the limit for the number of points you have active at any one time. Since your Magic doesn't increase with the new power point, you'll have to start picking and choosing what's active and what's not.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| So, when you use the rule of 20 karma for an extra power point known, that does not allow you to increase the number of powers you have active and thus you have to start switching some on and off, correct? |
Pretty much yes. At least that's the implication that the Adept Focus makes.
The core rules on the 20 Karma rule and general use of powers do not make the restriction that you cannot use powers with a power point cost greater than your magic rating
I gave my POV in this thread. Particularly in this post ...
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.