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> Firearms Conversions, Your opinions please
lorthazar
post Nov 29 2004, 08:51 PM
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Ammo Conversion Tables

Okay I have tried an abstract way of adding the differences between calibers. This is for my game only and is an experiment influenced by Ray Gun. Any comments and ideas would be welcome, but please keep it civil and upbeat. As experiments go this is going to be a fun one.

I already have a player making a 9mmP Savalette for her Decker. Sure it's less powerful, but the added control during burst fire is worth it in her opinion :).

Of course I also have a player designing the guns from Equilibrium firing .440 Cor Bon Magnum :eek: which could also be fun 8) .



Okay, okay feel free to flame all you want

This post has been edited by lorthazar: Nov 29 2004, 09:08 PM
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lorthazar
post Nov 29 2004, 09:39 PM
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I can't believe 22 people have not come up with even one comment, whether kind or hypercritical. Some one call Guiness we have a World Record.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 29 2004, 09:43 PM
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It was interesting enough to read the blurb here, but I'm just not interested enough in a conversion to click the link (nor do I have enough experience to comment). Likely a decent chunk of the other viewers felt the same way or similarly.

Now that my sense of civic duty has gotten me to look at it, I think 10S is way too much for a pistol round. The high-end shells look a bit overpowered as well, though I'm having trouble visualizing their actual sizes. More on that once I can take a look at a meterstick.

~J
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lorthazar
post Nov 29 2004, 09:46 PM
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Well normally I would agree, but remember these are the high power, high weight big game pistol rounds designed to kill bears, elephants, and such beasties.

For those not in the know the caliber of a round is how many inches it is in diameter. Thus a .22LR is a little over 1/5 an inch across while a .50 BMG is half an inch across.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 29 2004, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE (lorthazar)
Well normally I would agree, but remember these are the high power, high weight big game pistol rounds designed to kill bears, elephants, and such beasties.

For those not in the know the caliber of a round is how many inches it is in diameter. Thus a .22LR is a little over 1/5 an inch across while a .50 BMG is half an inch across.

Which in the guise of game balance is good to leave well enough alone. :D
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lorthazar
post Nov 29 2004, 10:05 PM
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Balance. I have balance, trust me. Especially for the poor slot using the .440 CorBon Magnums. "Oh you ran out of ammo? Well, it still makes a good club...." meanwhile little miss decker girl just loots the Beretta's lying around for the 9mmP ammo for her modified Savalette.

The balance come from the fact that your modified gun can no longer use normal ammo unless it is one of the (0) cost ammos. Never can two modified guns share ammo unless they shoot the same type.


Besides I thought you'd all be more worried about the 24D assault cannon round, or the 9S Assault Rifle, or the 8S submachine gun.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 29 2004, 10:45 PM
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:eek:

That was a problem with my thoroughness of reading, not with my not having problems with them.

~J
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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 29 2004, 11:02 PM
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I notice you've been thinking about game balance, but it comes out a bit weird. For example, as written a .440 Cor-Bon does the same damage out of a Hold-Out and a SMG. I was going to say you should just slap any (non-troll) player who asks for a .440 Cor-Bon SMG instead of trying to balance it, but I remember your games are a bit different...

So, unless lorthazar wants me to, I won't comment on either game balance or RL logic. Except for this: I urge people who play in anything but extremely high-powered games not to use these rules as such.

This is the last topic I posted my list of Damage Codes in. It won't be of much use to you, I guess, because it makes so much use of the Penetration rating thing.
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Raygun
post Nov 29 2004, 11:06 PM
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I'd like to know why you've chosen to bump up .22 LR from 6L in an SMG to 6M in an assault/sport/sniper rifle platforms, then bump it again to 6S in LMG. Same goes for the 4.6x30mm HK (.22LR and 4.6mm LMGs... teehee!). Doesn't make much sense. If you want to be more realistic, you should fix that. A bump up to 6M is as far as you should take it, and even that is arguable.

The .30-30 Winchester and .303 British are both rimmed cartridges, thus they're not likely to work very well in the box-fed automatic actions that assault rifles use. They would work fine in belt-fed MMGs. As a replacement, you might want to add the 8x57mm Mauser to the "assault rifles" field, as it was used in an automatic rifle format during WWII, and could easily be used in the same action as any .30-06 automatic rifle.
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Diesel
post Nov 30 2004, 02:53 AM
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Actually, on all of your rifle cartridges, there probably shouldn't be much of an increase in power or wounding from assault rifle to LMG, if any. The only real difference between the two platforms is (maintainable) rate of fire and range, to a lesser extent. If there were a carbine category, differentiating would probably work, but as it is, it's quite a bit of a jump for something that shouldn't have much difference at all.
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Solstice
post Nov 30 2004, 04:31 AM
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I personally don't feel that the same caliber in a different action would produce any more/less power. For example: a .22 pistol doesn't produce much less power than a .22 rifle but there are other factors involved such as ammo capacity, ergonomics etc. There is a difference in power based on barrel length but it's neglagible and should not be represented in the rules.
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lorthazar
post Nov 30 2004, 05:16 AM
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Well as far as the .22LR and it's ever shifting damage I am of the assumption that it the round of choice for the Ingram Super Mach, Ares HVAR, and the Ares HVLMG. In each case the bump up in damage is becuase of weapon design and the ability top use heavier ammo loads.

As for people who worry over the .440 Cor Bon Magnum I do have another game balancing effort in the works: limited special ammo availability so far you can only get the .440 Cor Bon Magnum in Gel, Capsule, Hollow Point and Mercury. No APDS, Flechette, AV, Glaser, Explosives, or even Regular are available in that caliber. Sure you have stopping power out the yin and yang, but armor is a hinderance in a much bigger way that with other rounds. other rounds have similiar availability.
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Crusher Bob
post Nov 30 2004, 05:18 AM
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Until they start loading their own ammo, which is both cheap and easy...
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Toptomcat
post Nov 30 2004, 05:24 AM
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For Normal ammo, sure, but are specialty loads like Capsule, APDS, and Glaser easy to handmake?
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Crusher Bob
post Nov 30 2004, 05:29 AM
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Glaser rounds can be made (birdshot in epoxy), and AP rounds can be made at home, you can also probably make tungsten carbide APDS, starting with drillbits or something similar if you were trying hard enough.

For capsule rounds, idunno. I would guess that it woudn't be too hard, though you'd need to safely handle whatever you were putting in the capsule. (add chemical handling toolkit?)
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Arethusa
post Nov 30 2004, 05:30 AM
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QUOTE (lorthazar)
Well as far as the .22LR and it's ever shifting damage I am of the assumption that it the round of choice for the Ingram Super Mach, Ares HVAR, and the Ares HVLMG. In each case the bump up in damage is becuase of weapon design and the ability top use heavier ammo loads.

As for people who worry over the .440 Cor Bon Magnum I do have another game balancing effort in the works: limited special ammo availability so far you can only get the .440 Cor Bon Magnum in Gel, Capsule, Hollow Point and Mercury. No APDS, Flechette, AV, Glaser, Explosives, or even Regular are available in that caliber. Sure you have stopping power out the yin and yang, but armor is a hinderance in a much bigger way that with other rounds. other rounds have similiar availability.

You really shouldn't be relying on completely artificial constraints for your game balance.

And what's all this about the Equilibrium pistols being .440 Cor-Bon? They were just modified Beretta 92FSs, and they weren't even heavily modified. The disassembly levers were replaced with fake fire selectors, the extractor was modified to eject shells straight up, and a compensator/flash hider (shaper, really, for the cross shaped muzzle flashes) slapped on the front. 9x19mm all the way.
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Solstice
post Nov 30 2004, 05:43 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (lorthazar @ Nov 30 2004, 12:16 AM)
Well as far as the .22LR  and it's ever shifting damage I am of the assumption that it the round of choice for the Ingram Super Mach, Ares HVAR, and the Ares HVLMG. In each case the bump up in damage is becuase of weapon design and the ability top use heavier ammo loads.

As for people who worry over the .440 Cor Bon Magnum I do have another game balancing effort in the works: limited special ammo availability so far you can only get the .440 Cor Bon Magnum in Gel, Capsule, Hollow Point and Mercury. No APDS, Flechette, AV, Glaser, Explosives, or even Regular are available in that caliber. Sure you have stopping power out the yin and yang, but  armor is a hinderance in a much bigger way that with other rounds. other rounds have similiar availability.

You really shouldn't be relying on completely artificial constraints for your game balance.

And what's all this about the Equilibrium pistols being .440 Cor-Bon? They were just modified Beretta 92FSs, and they weren't even heavily modified. The disassembly levers were replaced with fake fire selectors, the extractor was modified to eject shells straight up, and a compensator/flash hider (shaper, really, for the cross shaped muzzle flashes) slapped on the front. 9x19mm all the way.

if your basing any realistic expectations on your rules than .22 has no buisness doing any more damage than Light regardless of rate of fire or firearm.
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lorthazar
post Nov 30 2004, 05:51 AM
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The guys wants the pistols to look like the ones in equilibrum completel with the cool restractable spike on the grip. He wants the gun recallibered for .440 Cor Bon magnum, not really a hard concept to fathom.

As for them making their own rounds dure they can try but all B/R rolls are done by me and trying for verboten rounds is always a failure. After all you knew the limits of the round when you chose it. Still I am debating allowing Regular and Steel Core as they are not game breaking even in that pistol.

Finally any game that has Great Dragons and Immortal elves has not claim to reality as we know it.
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Solstice
post Nov 30 2004, 05:55 AM
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Well if you don't know any better and it doesn't matter to you then go for it if it works! :D
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 30 2004, 05:55 AM
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It has plenty of claim in areas unrelated to GDs and IEs.

~J
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Solstice
post Nov 30 2004, 05:57 AM
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As an aside: The firearms rules are quite realistic IMO and I die inside when they are mangled thus...
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lorthazar
post Nov 30 2004, 06:23 AM
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okay realistic how? That every heavy pistol uses the same ammo? That about as realistic as surving a supernova.

All i wanted to do was add some spic to the game. There is no way a .44 Automag should be doing the dame damage as a .45 ACP. So insteadd of making umpteen million specialty guns i decided that you basic gun can be built to fire different calibers. Certainly some of them are horrendously more powerful, but that is reality speaking.
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Solstice
post Nov 30 2004, 06:37 AM
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QUOTE (lorthazar @ Nov 30 2004, 01:23 AM)
okay realistic how?  That every heavy pistol uses the same ammo?  That about as realistic as surving a supernova.

All i wanted to do was add some spic to the game. There is no way a .44 Automag should be doing the dame damage as a .45 ACP. So insteadd of making umpteen million specialty guns i decided that you basic gun can be built to fire different calibers. Certainly some of them are horrendously more powerful, but that is reality speaking.

I'm pretty certain not every pistol uses the same ammo. The rules are really more for convienience than anything. Having to deal with a seperate cost and avail of different kinds of ammo with the same damage code would be a nightmare and not nessesary. And they do all use the same TYPE of ammo and damage and that would still be reasonably realistic simply due to the fact that a certain firearm design such as semi auto pistol can only accomodate so much pressure and still be produced efficiently. So they would all be pretty close in terms of damage. Really when you look at pistol calibers it's pretty realistic they just don't put names on them in SR. .380 auto and 9mm would be light pistols. 10mm, .45, .40, and .357 Sig would be heavy pistols. I don't see the need for it frankly.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 30 2004, 06:38 AM
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Bullshit that is as realistic as surviving a supernova. I'll bet whatever you want that they'll have invented a way to have every heavy pistol use the same ammo (even if they haven't used it) before they'll begin to figure out how to survive a supernova (apart from "run").

~J
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Toptomcat
post Nov 30 2004, 06:39 AM
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Even the super-heavy calibers like the S&W .500 supermagnum I've heard tell of can be simulated with very-high-Conc slug-firing shotguns.
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