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lorthazar
Ammo Conversion Tables

Okay I have tried an abstract way of adding the differences between calibers. This is for my game only and is an experiment influenced by Ray Gun. Any comments and ideas would be welcome, but please keep it civil and upbeat. As experiments go this is going to be a fun one.

I already have a player making a 9mmP Savalette for her Decker. Sure it's less powerful, but the added control during burst fire is worth it in her opinion smile.gif.

Of course I also have a player designing the guns from Equilibrium firing .440 Cor Bon Magnum eek.gif which could also be fun cool.gif .



Okay, okay feel free to flame all you want
lorthazar
I can't believe 22 people have not come up with even one comment, whether kind or hypercritical. Some one call Guiness we have a World Record.
Kagetenshi
It was interesting enough to read the blurb here, but I'm just not interested enough in a conversion to click the link (nor do I have enough experience to comment). Likely a decent chunk of the other viewers felt the same way or similarly.

Now that my sense of civic duty has gotten me to look at it, I think 10S is way too much for a pistol round. The high-end shells look a bit overpowered as well, though I'm having trouble visualizing their actual sizes. More on that once I can take a look at a meterstick.

~J
lorthazar
Well normally I would agree, but remember these are the high power, high weight big game pistol rounds designed to kill bears, elephants, and such beasties.

For those not in the know the caliber of a round is how many inches it is in diameter. Thus a .22LR is a little over 1/5 an inch across while a .50 BMG is half an inch across.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Well normally I would agree, but remember these are the high power, high weight big game pistol rounds designed to kill bears, elephants, and such beasties.

For those not in the know the caliber of a round is how many inches it is in diameter. Thus a .22LR is a little over 1/5 an inch across while a .50 BMG is half an inch across.

Which in the guise of game balance is good to leave well enough alone. biggrin.gif
lorthazar
Balance. I have balance, trust me. Especially for the poor slot using the .440 CorBon Magnums. "Oh you ran out of ammo? Well, it still makes a good club...." meanwhile little miss decker girl just loots the Beretta's lying around for the 9mmP ammo for her modified Savalette.

The balance come from the fact that your modified gun can no longer use normal ammo unless it is one of the (0) cost ammos. Never can two modified guns share ammo unless they shoot the same type.


Besides I thought you'd all be more worried about the 24D assault cannon round, or the 9S Assault Rifle, or the 8S submachine gun.
Kagetenshi
eek.gif

That was a problem with my thoroughness of reading, not with my not having problems with them.

~J
Austere Emancipator
I notice you've been thinking about game balance, but it comes out a bit weird. For example, as written a .440 Cor-Bon does the same damage out of a Hold-Out and a SMG. I was going to say you should just slap any (non-troll) player who asks for a .440 Cor-Bon SMG instead of trying to balance it, but I remember your games are a bit different...

So, unless lorthazar wants me to, I won't comment on either game balance or RL logic. Except for this: I urge people who play in anything but extremely high-powered games not to use these rules as such.

This is the last topic I posted my list of Damage Codes in. It won't be of much use to you, I guess, because it makes so much use of the Penetration rating thing.
Raygun
I'd like to know why you've chosen to bump up .22 LR from 6L in an SMG to 6M in an assault/sport/sniper rifle platforms, then bump it again to 6S in LMG. Same goes for the 4.6x30mm HK (.22LR and 4.6mm LMGs... teehee!). Doesn't make much sense. If you want to be more realistic, you should fix that. A bump up to 6M is as far as you should take it, and even that is arguable.

The .30-30 Winchester and .303 British are both rimmed cartridges, thus they're not likely to work very well in the box-fed automatic actions that assault rifles use. They would work fine in belt-fed MMGs. As a replacement, you might want to add the 8x57mm Mauser to the "assault rifles" field, as it was used in an automatic rifle format during WWII, and could easily be used in the same action as any .30-06 automatic rifle.
Diesel
Actually, on all of your rifle cartridges, there probably shouldn't be much of an increase in power or wounding from assault rifle to LMG, if any. The only real difference between the two platforms is (maintainable) rate of fire and range, to a lesser extent. If there were a carbine category, differentiating would probably work, but as it is, it's quite a bit of a jump for something that shouldn't have much difference at all.
Solstice
I personally don't feel that the same caliber in a different action would produce any more/less power. For example: a .22 pistol doesn't produce much less power than a .22 rifle but there are other factors involved such as ammo capacity, ergonomics etc. There is a difference in power based on barrel length but it's neglagible and should not be represented in the rules.
lorthazar
Well as far as the .22LR and it's ever shifting damage I am of the assumption that it the round of choice for the Ingram Super Mach, Ares HVAR, and the Ares HVLMG. In each case the bump up in damage is becuase of weapon design and the ability top use heavier ammo loads.

As for people who worry over the .440 Cor Bon Magnum I do have another game balancing effort in the works: limited special ammo availability so far you can only get the .440 Cor Bon Magnum in Gel, Capsule, Hollow Point and Mercury. No APDS, Flechette, AV, Glaser, Explosives, or even Regular are available in that caliber. Sure you have stopping power out the yin and yang, but armor is a hinderance in a much bigger way that with other rounds. other rounds have similiar availability.
Crusher Bob
Until they start loading their own ammo, which is both cheap and easy...
Toptomcat
For Normal ammo, sure, but are specialty loads like Capsule, APDS, and Glaser easy to handmake?
Crusher Bob
Glaser rounds can be made (birdshot in epoxy), and AP rounds can be made at home, you can also probably make tungsten carbide APDS, starting with drillbits or something similar if you were trying hard enough.

For capsule rounds, idunno. I would guess that it woudn't be too hard, though you'd need to safely handle whatever you were putting in the capsule. (add chemical handling toolkit?)
Arethusa
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Well as far as the .22LR and it's ever shifting damage I am of the assumption that it the round of choice for the Ingram Super Mach, Ares HVAR, and the Ares HVLMG. In each case the bump up in damage is becuase of weapon design and the ability top use heavier ammo loads.

As for people who worry over the .440 Cor Bon Magnum I do have another game balancing effort in the works: limited special ammo availability so far you can only get the .440 Cor Bon Magnum in Gel, Capsule, Hollow Point and Mercury. No APDS, Flechette, AV, Glaser, Explosives, or even Regular are available in that caliber. Sure you have stopping power out the yin and yang, but armor is a hinderance in a much bigger way that with other rounds. other rounds have similiar availability.

You really shouldn't be relying on completely artificial constraints for your game balance.

And what's all this about the Equilibrium pistols being .440 Cor-Bon? They were just modified Beretta 92FSs, and they weren't even heavily modified. The disassembly levers were replaced with fake fire selectors, the extractor was modified to eject shells straight up, and a compensator/flash hider (shaper, really, for the cross shaped muzzle flashes) slapped on the front. 9x19mm all the way.
Solstice
QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (lorthazar @ Nov 30 2004, 12:16 AM)
Well as far as the .22LR  and it's ever shifting damage I am of the assumption that it the round of choice for the Ingram Super Mach, Ares HVAR, and the Ares HVLMG. In each case the bump up in damage is becuase of weapon design and the ability top use heavier ammo loads.

As for people who worry over the .440 Cor Bon Magnum I do have another game balancing effort in the works: limited special ammo availability so far you can only get the .440 Cor Bon Magnum in Gel, Capsule, Hollow Point and Mercury. No APDS, Flechette, AV, Glaser, Explosives, or even Regular are available in that caliber. Sure you have stopping power out the yin and yang, but  armor is a hinderance in a much bigger way that with other rounds. other rounds have similiar availability.

You really shouldn't be relying on completely artificial constraints for your game balance.

And what's all this about the Equilibrium pistols being .440 Cor-Bon? They were just modified Beretta 92FSs, and they weren't even heavily modified. The disassembly levers were replaced with fake fire selectors, the extractor was modified to eject shells straight up, and a compensator/flash hider (shaper, really, for the cross shaped muzzle flashes) slapped on the front. 9x19mm all the way.

if your basing any realistic expectations on your rules than .22 has no buisness doing any more damage than Light regardless of rate of fire or firearm.
lorthazar
The guys wants the pistols to look like the ones in equilibrum completel with the cool restractable spike on the grip. He wants the gun recallibered for .440 Cor Bon magnum, not really a hard concept to fathom.

As for them making their own rounds dure they can try but all B/R rolls are done by me and trying for verboten rounds is always a failure. After all you knew the limits of the round when you chose it. Still I am debating allowing Regular and Steel Core as they are not game breaking even in that pistol.

Finally any game that has Great Dragons and Immortal elves has not claim to reality as we know it.
Solstice
Well if you don't know any better and it doesn't matter to you then go for it if it works! biggrin.gif
Kagetenshi
It has plenty of claim in areas unrelated to GDs and IEs.

~J
Solstice
As an aside: The firearms rules are quite realistic IMO and I die inside when they are mangled thus...
lorthazar
okay realistic how? That every heavy pistol uses the same ammo? That about as realistic as surving a supernova.

All i wanted to do was add some spic to the game. There is no way a .44 Automag should be doing the dame damage as a .45 ACP. So insteadd of making umpteen million specialty guns i decided that you basic gun can be built to fire different calibers. Certainly some of them are horrendously more powerful, but that is reality speaking.
Solstice
QUOTE (lorthazar @ Nov 30 2004, 01:23 AM)
okay realistic how?  That every heavy pistol uses the same ammo?  That about as realistic as surving a supernova.

All i wanted to do was add some spic to the game. There is no way a .44 Automag should be doing the dame damage as a .45 ACP. So insteadd of making umpteen million specialty guns i decided that you basic gun can be built to fire different calibers. Certainly some of them are horrendously more powerful, but that is reality speaking.

I'm pretty certain not every pistol uses the same ammo. The rules are really more for convienience than anything. Having to deal with a seperate cost and avail of different kinds of ammo with the same damage code would be a nightmare and not nessesary. And they do all use the same TYPE of ammo and damage and that would still be reasonably realistic simply due to the fact that a certain firearm design such as semi auto pistol can only accomodate so much pressure and still be produced efficiently. So they would all be pretty close in terms of damage. Really when you look at pistol calibers it's pretty realistic they just don't put names on them in SR. .380 auto and 9mm would be light pistols. 10mm, .45, .40, and .357 Sig would be heavy pistols. I don't see the need for it frankly.
Kagetenshi
Bullshit that is as realistic as surviving a supernova. I'll bet whatever you want that they'll have invented a way to have every heavy pistol use the same ammo (even if they haven't used it) before they'll begin to figure out how to survive a supernova (apart from "run").

~J
Toptomcat
Even the super-heavy calibers like the S&W .500 supermagnum I've heard tell of can be simulated with very-high-Conc slug-firing shotguns.
lorthazar
I won't dignify Kagetenshi with a response.

As for the high conceal sslug gun. Sure it simulates it well, but that was not my aim . My aim was to make it easy to for players who like particualr calibers to play with them. I am not forcing my player to use this it is an option they can choose.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (lorthazar)
All i wanted to do was add some spic to the game. There is no way a .44 Automag should be doing the dame damage as a .45 ACP.

There's nothing wrong with adding such things into the game, if your group agrees with you. And I agree: all else being equal, a .44 Automag should probably be doing more damage than a .45 ACP. However, as written, your numbers include some things that make about as little sense as those two doing the same damage.

One Raygun already mentioned, the .22 LR 6L/6M/6S. The main reason why this doesn't make sense is that a 5.56x45mm LMG only does 7S by your number, and, no matter what you do with it, a .22 LR just won't get that close to a 5.56x45mm. You're still limited to a significantly lighter bullet because of total cartridge length limits, and there's no propellant in the world that will push that bullet from a .22 LR as fast as from a 5.56x45mm -- and if you tried, you'd net one busted weapon and lots of small, fast casing (and possibly weapon) fragments. There really is no reason to play up the rimfire .22 LR like this, even from a game balance point of view it's better if the HV AR and LMG have a lower Damage Code and Power than any other weapons of the same class (because that's then offset by the greater RoF).

And like Diesel said, there's really no reason why LMGs should do more damage than ARs of the same caliber. Barrel lengths tend to be the same, and several LMGs in fact have shorter barrels than ARs (508mm M16 vs 465mm M249). LMGs are not designed to fire loadings any more powerful than ARs. If you want LMGs to have some significant edge over ARs, go with greater ammo capacities, recoil reduction and increased long/extreme ranges -- the range increase doesn't necessarily make sense either, but at least it's a lot better than better Damage Code.

And then there's the Heavy Pistol -> SMG Power drop that I mentioned. The only reason I can figure for this is game balance, logic would dictate that SMGs (with their often longer barrels) do more damage than HPs in the same caliber. In my view, it's much better to enforce game balance by, for example, saying that you simply cannot get SMGs in most of these calibers. If you do, you end up with a ridiculously expensive, huge and heavy weapon that suffers from double recoil penalties, and has no chance of any Recoil Compensation. These are pretty much the reasons why such weapons don't exist IRL, and I always like to think of RL as an example of well-balanced gameplay, at least as far as ranged combat is concerned.

There are some other Damage Codes that I don't really agree with. For example, the lumping of .41 Magnum with all the other 9Ms (when a .41 Magnum gets 750+ ft-lbs with 210gr bullets at up to 1300fps while a .40 S&W gets around 500 ft-lbs with 155gr bullets at 1200fps) vs. the 6M -> 9M jump between 9x19mm and .357SIG Heavy Pistols (124gr @ 1250fps for 430 ft-lbs vs 125gr @ 1420fps for 560 ft-lbs).
DarkShade
doesnt this force you to, for game balance`s sake, also redesign sr armors, add armor penetration rules for armorx vs caliber y etc etc?

then again, could be you like your guns deadlier, I personally think SR is deadly enough as is without people shooting rhino ammo at you..

I dont really agree with .22 doing 6M damage though.. that makes it pretty deadly against an unarmored person, which it is not. if you want it doing M damage I would have it do 4 or at the utmost 5 m.. .22 does not penetrate armor of any kind.. sheesh, a .22 wont even reliably penetrate a good leather jacket.

nah calibers in weapons is just too much work to apply properly..
DS
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (lorthazar)
I won't dignify Kagetenshi with a response.

Then choose your similes better. There's a difference between making a point and sounding like a gibbering moron.

~J
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (DarkShade)
doesnt this force you to, for game balance`s sake, also redesign sr armors, add armor penetration rules for armorx vs caliber y etc etc?

If the Power ratings of often used weapons change significantly, then game balance would be best kept by doing some changes to armor as well. That doesn't really seem to be the case here, since if players make sane caliber choices the Damage Codes (or at least Power ratings) will stay close to the originals -- 6M and 9M pistols with a few more 10Ms, 7M-8M SMGs, 9M ARs, 9S Sport Rifles, 9S-14S Sniper Rifles. The calibers that have been assigned higher Damage Codes are exotic, and quite (or, in some cases, very) rarely used -- for reasons that don't really come up in those tables.

There is absolutely no need to draw up rules for how a specific kind of armor functions against specific types of ammunition. If Body Armor A is better against low-power pistol JHPs than Body Armor B, then it's a good bet Body Armor A is also better against high-power rifle FMJs than Body Armor B. (Of course it could be the case that neither is of any use against high-power rifle FMJs...)

QUOTE (DarkShade)
.22 does not penetrate armor of any kind.. sheesh, a .22 wont even reliably penetrate a good leather jacket.

Yep, .22s don't penetrate any ballistic armor at all (NIJ level I, lightest available, is proof against .22 LR HV lead rounds), and the same goes for .38 Special. But then any non-FMJ .44 Magnum loadings are completely defeated by a good flexible armored vest while any AR FMJ round would punch right through. This sort of thing is not portrayed well in SR -- in fact it's not portrayed at all.

Raygun corrects this discrepancy by giving high velocity rounds an armor modifier of 0.75x or 0.5x, while upping armor ratings. I don't think Raygun's complete armor listing is available anywhere, but you get the idea from his website that you can get very high-rating armor in his game to defeat the high-power pistols and shotguns and even many rifles (although with hit location rules you are hardly ever bulletproof).

I'm pretty sure a leather jacket capable of stopping most .22 LR loadings would be a bit too thick to actually wear... as in 4+ inches.

QUOTE (DarkShade)
nah calibers in weapons is just too much work to apply properly..

Well that depends completely on what you consider to be "too much work", now doesn't it?
Botch
You did all this work, but have a few flaws that you should give into and fix. The worst offense is the lack of BFTGs in your system - bad, bad boy! wink.gif
lorthazar
All right, point conceded on the .22LR and the charts will be changed as soon as I have time. maxing it out at 6L making some ridiculously cheap HV weapons avaialble.

I would make the SMG values fit the HP values, but that is a game balance issue. No heavy pistol does FA without major modification. That extra point or two can make all the difference.

As for the change from Assault Rifle to LMG. I am supposing everyone would agree the M16 and the M249 translate roughly to the Colt M23 and the Ingram Valiant LMG, respectfully. Both these weapons fire the 5.56 Nato round. In game the round is easier to slow down (lower power) but does more damage (higher damage level) from the Ingram Valiant LMG. i know this is not true in the scope of reality, but I did try to stay with game balance.

Finally I have gotten emails from people asking alternately why the DP's are so high or are so low. A slight redesign of that is coming up as well. maybe a more compelling game balance issue would be higher DP's for the rounds that seem to offend.


PS: I still have no comment for Kagetenshi other than: Quit talking about yourself that way. I'm quite positive you are an intelligent, reasonable and caring human being, despite any evidence to the contrary.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (lorthazar)
As for the change from Assault Rifle to LMG. I am supposing everyone would agree the M16 and the M249 translate roughly to the Colt M23 and the Ingram Valiant LMG, respectfully. Both these weapons fire the 5.56 Nato round. In game the round is easier to slow down (lower power) but does more damage (higher damage level) from the Ingram Valiant LMG. i know this is not true in the scope of reality, but I did try to stay with game balance.

This is not a good way to compromise between game balance and reality. You make a few assumptions about the guns already existing, and then you go through the issues and make a rather extreme either/or decision on every point. You won't get logical or balanced results that way.

I suggest you go the distance and use the RL performace of the particular round as the most important factor for every single caliber/weapon combination, and then use the same things to balance the guns in game as balance them IRL. Either that, or get rid of the more exotic calibers and caliber/weapon combinations, and pull of some tricks like introducing a variety of new, fictional calibers, some designed specifically for LMGs (to explain longer range and greater damage), some specifically for ARs, SMGs, HPs, etc.
lorthazar
Another try


Okay made some of the suggest changes. Also increased the DP of most of the rounds lpresent on a sliding scale. Cost can be a huge game balancer.
Arethusa
I'd give .22LR an additional point of power from an SMG/rifle length barrel. Still nothing incredible, but the longer barrel does have some impact.

Personally, I think you're overrating 5.7x28mm. Froma holdout, I'd give it 6L; at that barrel length, it's little more than a noisy, hard, glorified .22. I still personally feel that it has no right being Moderate anywhere, and always wrote up the PDW calibers with high power and Light damage codes. There are some differences in numerical performance between that and low power/Moderate damage. Suffice to say it's really easily and endlessly debatable, but at least worth throwing out there.

Considering the penetration potential of 7.62x25mm, you might want to up the power or treat it as a rifle round (assuming you adopt Rayguns .75 soft armor modifier as opposed to going the way of three part damage codes).

.400 Cor-Bon's a bit on the weak side, damage code wise, as are a number of the really heavy pistol cartridges.

Why you have some pistol cartidges doing less damage out of longer, SMG length barrels eludes me. That just makes zero sense whatsoever. In all but a few cases, SMGs have longer barrels, and faster bullets hurt more. This is the single most wrong thing with the chart.

Not sure what you mean by CAWS. In real life, they were just a longer 12g shell, and thus a separate cartidge. Not just a longer barrel length, or whatever.

4.6x30mm in no way deserves to hit for Serious damage. It's not a heavy weapon caliber, either. Really, I second everything Austere's said about barrel lengths and LMGs. There's no reason to up those damage codes, and it makes no goddamn sense.
lorthazar
First of all thank you for being honest. I appreciate it.

Some of the things you find 'wrong' are 'wrong' for a reason. First I went with an already prepared chart and extrapolated a little. the loer damage for heavy rounds from the SMG was due to the fact I have to keep the game balanced somewhat. that also accounts for the increase in LMG damage code or Assualt Rifles. I am trying to blend a little realism in with game balance. Some things had to be done.

While yes I real;ize what a CAWS is, I also added a sorta new weapon template, Fully Automatic Shotguns.
Raygun
Again, the .30-30 Win and .303 British do not belong in the Assault column. They are rimmed cases, which are about a bitch and a half to get to feed reliably from a box magazine in an automatic action. In other words, no one in his right mind would bother to make an assault rifle using either cartridge when there are about a shitload of other, more readily available cartridges that are better suited to the task.

Out of what you have listed, you should probably replace them with the .243 Win and .260 Rem. You could also add the 7mm-08 Rem; all are necked down from the 7.62x51mm/.308 Win case, requiring only a different barrel for caliber change. DSA makes FALs chambered for the above cartridges.

The .25-06 and .270 Win could also go in the Assault column. Both are based on the .30-06 case. If it's there, you might as well add the other two. Again, just a barrel change. Along with them should go the 8x57mm Mauser; shorter case, but same head diameter, comparable pressure. More tweaking would be needed, but it can be done. Conversion to/from 7x57mm would just need a new barrel.
lorthazar
Well, I guess I can make exactly none of the people happy all of the time. No this is not directed at the posters here, (well not most of you). I think I am going to go with Austere's suggestion of creating my own ammo calibers. Of course I would also have to decribe them, but that can be fun as well.
Raygun
Well dude, you ask for advice, you just might get more than you want to hear. Welcome to Dumpshock.
lorthazar
I'm sorry forgot to add in the laughter part of it. I expected a lot of flames and comments. While the work I put in was substatial, this just showed me that maybe I came from it from the wrong angle. Why should I use real world cartridges when they is nothing about SR that supports it? Making a few rounds for each class of weapon from scratch would be better. Then i could have some real fun and keep it realistic and game balance.


I still would have loved to see a troll fire a truly trollish SMG.
Crusher Bob
Shadowrun really does seem to lack 'borg guns' that CP2020 had in abundange, thing like 'SMGs' in 5.56 and 7.62 NATO, Battle Rifles in 300 win mag, etc.

If you really want to get ridiculous take a look at Underground, where some of the biggest genetic alterations could carry very cut down 75mm howitzers. And the standard issue assualt riles were in the 20 and 25mm range. grinbig.gif Of course, Underground didn't take itself to seriously . but then against, it had some of the best 'rules' about changing your environemnt/being an actual revolutionary than any other game I've seen.
otomik
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Why should I use real world cartridges when they is nothing about SR that supports it? Making a few rounds for each class of weapon from scratch would be better. Then i could have some real fun and keep it realistic and game balance.

This is debateable. In neo-anarchist guide to real life it suggests a GM might want to create SR versions of current day Glocks, and says that they still have a niche in the shadow community. There's a lot of gun models that are clearly based on current day models and there's a lot of stuff that suggests current day cartridges will be around for a long time (9mm Parabellum is now 100 years old).

Jeff Cooper theorized about a semi auto carbine firing a large caliber pistol cartridge, called this concept a "Thumper". If manufacturers made more of these I could imagine a troll modifying one of these to full-auto to make a troll SMG.
lorthazar
Well I was thinking that with the changes in material available as well as the chemistry older cartrides might be phased out entirely thanks to being truly ineffective. They might keep old calibers around for nostalgia but revamp them. I imagine things like the .45 Caseless Colt, with better stopping power than it's older cousin the .45 ACP.

Raygun
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Well I was thinking that with the changes in material available as well as the chemistry older cartrides might be phased out entirely thanks to being truly ineffective.

That, I gaurantee you, will never, ever happen. .45 ACP would work just as well on any human, dwarf or elf in Shadowrun as it has worked for the past 99 years and will therefore still be in demand. Other, more powerful cartridges would certainly be needed for the larger species (plenty of which are available today), but that does not mean that less powerful cartridges would be wholly supplanted by the need for more powerful cartridges.

QUOTE
They might keep old calibers around for nostalgia but revamp them. I imagine things like the .45 Caseless Colt, with better stopping power than it's older cousin the .45 ACP.

You mean kind of like the .45 Super? .45 Rowland? .45 Win Mag? It's been done. (Short of being caseless, because there is no practical benefit unless you're using a lot of it.)

What it all boils down to is how much M*V is needed and how much recoil can be tolerated by what is considered the average user to the market. While the materials and methods used to manufacture firearms have changed substantially over the last 100 years, the ammunition has changed very, very little. Some the cartridges that are still in very common use today, such as the 9mm Para, .45 ACP, .30-06, etc... are all older than or very close to 100 years old at this point. Why do you think it is that they've been around so long? Why would that change in the next 60 years? Why would it change in Shadowrun?

QUOTE
While the work I put in was substatial, this just showed me that maybe I came from it from the wrong angle. Why should I use real world cartridges when they is nothing about SR that supports it?

Why should you use cartridges at all when nothing about Shadowrun supports it? Because it interests you. Because it's fun. Why should you give up when people don't agree 100% with your ideas? You shouldn't. It's your game. Play it the way you want. The only approval you should be concerned with is that of the people you play with. But if you ask here, expect a debate or two. Especially when it comes to firearms.

QUOTE
Making a few rounds for each class of weapon from scratch would be better. Then i could have some real fun and keep it realistic and game balance.

You know, you're very likely to get just as many comments that way, if not more. The points you're referring to as "balance" that others are debating you about aren't going to change with the name of a cartridge. You can either be happy with what you have, or take other people's suggestions about changes. It's up to you. Again, it's your game. Play it the way you want. The only approval you should be concerned with is that of the people you play with.

QUOTE
I still would have loved to see a troll fire a truly trollish SMG.

Talk to Botch.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Raygun)
That, I gaurantee you, will never, ever happen. .45 ACP would work just as well on any human, dwarf or elf in Shadowrun as it has worked for the past 99 years and will therefore still be in demand. Other, more powerful cartridges would certainly be needed for the larger species (plenty of which are available today), but that does not mean that less powerful cartridges would be wholly supplanted by the need for more powerful cartridges.

Actually, I'd say it's worth pointing out that of all venerable calibers, .45ACP is probably the best candidate for marginalization. It's subsonic by default, performs miserably against armor, wouldn't have the penetration capability to do much to something big where all the squishy bits are in deep (trolls, etc), and runs rather cold as far as pressures are concerned. In a future where hot loadings are going to be far more viable due to materials advances and armor more efficient and way more accessible, it seems likely that .45ACP will be one of the first to fall by the wayside. I'm not sure I see this as particularly likely in reality, but in Shadowrun's terms, there's a strong case to be made that it would, at the very least, be used as a platform for hotter loads with thicker/stronger case walls and redesigned/necked down bullets.

QUOTE (otomik)
Jeff Cooper theorized about a semi auto carbine firing a large caliber pistol cartridge, called this concept a "Thumper". If manufacturers made more of these I could imagine a troll modifying one of these to full-auto to make a troll SMG.

You're probably aware, but it's been done and done at least a couple times.
Raygun
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Actually, I'd say it's worth pointing out that of all venerable calibers, .45ACP is probably the best candidate for marginalization. It's subsonic by default, performs miserably against armor, wouldn't have the penetration capability to do much to something big where all the squishy bits are in deep (trolls, etc), and runs rather cold as far as pressures are concerned.

It's also worth pointing out that some of these examples you list for a potential demise of the .45 ACP are also examples of why it would likely stay around.

.45 ACP is subsonic by default (can be suppressed easily), runs cold as far as pressures are concerned (guns can be made relatively lightweight). How it performs against body armor is completely irrelevant; no handgun cartridge performs well against body armor, nor will they ever compared to rifle cartridges. And the fact that it likely wouldn't perform well terminally against troll-sized beings enforces my point that some heavier cartridges would be needed some of the time. At the human scale, that basically translates to carrying a heavier caliber rifle than is common today. (From say, 5.56x45mm to 7.62x51mm, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf, etc...)

QUOTE
In a future where hot loadings are going to be far more viable due to materials advances and armor more efficient and way more accessible, it seems likely that .45ACP will be one of the first to fall by the wayside.

That's exactly what a whole lot of people were saying in the 1970s-1980s, too. And somehow, even with technology available that completely defeats it, the .45 ACP is more popular than ever. Funny that.

QUOTE
I'm not sure I see this as particularly likely in reality, but in Shadowrun's terms, there's a strong case to be made that it would, at the very least, be used as a platform for hotter loads with thicker/stronger case walls and redesigned/necked down bullets.

Of course there would be reason to make hotter loads for the .45 ACP platform in the world of SR. They've been made in reality already without much reason beyond "let's see what we can do" (.400 Cor-Bon, .40 Super, .45 Super, .45 Rowland, .45 Win Mag, etc...).

My point is that they won't wholly supplant the older, proven cartridges that work just fine the vast majority of the time. The cartridges we use today will still be in use 60 years from now (as they were 60 years ago), and would also continue to be used even in a world such as the one Shadowrun takes place in. They may be supplemented by more powerful cartridges, but will not be wholly supplanted. There's no reason for it when only a very small percentage of the population is more than marginally larger than human size, according to this.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Raygun)
It's also worth pointing out that some of these examples you list for a potential demise of the .45 ACP are also examples of why it would likely stay around.

.45 ACP is subsonic by default (can be suppressed easily), runs cold as far as pressures are concerned (guns can be made relatively lightweight). How it performs against body armor is completely irrelevant; no handgun cartridge performs well against body armor, nor will they ever compared to rifle cartridges. And the fact that it likely wouldn't perform well terminally against troll-sized beings enforces my point that some heavier cartridges would be needed some of the time. At the human scale, that basically translates to carrying a heavier caliber rifle than is common today. (From say, 5.56x45mm to 7.62x51mm, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf, etc...)

Thing is I'm not saying it's going to disappear; that, even in the context of Shadowrun, I cannot see happening. What I can see is .45ACP being marginalized. Sure, there'll still be gangsters doing gangster things and packing 1911s because they practically grow on trees, but beyond that, its performance is really sort of a niche thing.

Easy suppression is useful, but definitely something more suited for specific use. Assuming 60 years of material advances, it's reasonable to assume that higher pressures will be far more managable in lighter guns than they are today. I realize no pistol cartridge performs incredibly well against armor, but .45ACP is worse, and other cartridges have shown themselves more adaptable to armor penetration than .45ACP likely ever will. The Russian PBP rounds come to mind, and there's always 7.62x25mm. Trolls, specifically, may not matter, but the general greater availability of big nasties in the 2060s is arguable cause to move to something with a bit more penetration for general use.

QUOTE (Raygun)
That's exactly what a whole lot of people were saying in the 1970s-1980s, too. And somehow, even with technology available that completely defeats it, the .45 ACP is more popular than ever. Funny that.

There's a significant difference there, though, in that the ubiquity of armor was simply theorized 20 years ago; in terms of speculating on the 2060s, it's definitely more available and more accessible for everyday wear. That changes the dynamic quite a bit.

I'm not arguing that .45ACP's going to disappear, but a lot of Shadowrun's world seems to provide quite a bit of impetus to move away from it. This is problematic, at best, today, but in a world where megacorporations are in far better positions to standardize and saturate the market with new stuff, I think it's quite a bit more plausible.
lorthazar
I think I may have hit on a compromise that i really like.

A Redo the chart and bring all damage levels back down to average of the class. However this means substantial increases in power to effectively represent some harder hitting calibers. i will be removing some of the wildcats from the mix. I will also leave out the heavy weapons section. And introduce a new frame Close Assault Weapon System or CAWS which steals it name from it preferred cartridge

B add in some new high technology ammo types that literally do not exist yet. Some of these will be noble experiments that failed. zothers will be improvements of current rounds, and a few will be sci-fi in nature (needlers, gyrocs, and microminigrenades)

C: Some 'new' ammo types. KTW, Ceramic, Silver, Densiplast (replacing HI-C), Bugs, Tracers, RamJet, and a few others
Raygun
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Thing is I'm not saying it's going to disappear; that, even in the context of Shadowrun, I cannot see happening.  What I can see is .45ACP being  marginalized.

In short, I still think you're overstating the case. Here's the long version:

The problem I have is that there isn't much reason to single out the .45 ACP this way. What you should be seeing is every modern defensive handgun cartridge being marginalized to the point that no one cartridge significantly outperforms the other. Because that's what would happen. If the .45 ACP loses ground, so does the 9mm Para, .40 S&W, .380 Auto, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, etc... Certainly more powerful loads and cartridges would be (and have been) created to deal with that marginalization.

QUOTE
I realize no pistol cartridge performs incredibly well against armor, but .45ACP is worse, and other cartridges have shown themselves more adaptable to armor penetration than .45ACP likely ever will.  The Russian PBP rounds come to mind, and there's always 7.62x25mm.

The PBP load is a specialized, high-pressure load for the 9x19mm. It can't be fired from just any 9mm handgun, for the same reasons that not every .45 ACP handgun can fire .45 Super (though your assertion that new technology will allow similar-sized guns to handle higher pressure loads is reasonable, though with most users, recoil would still be objectionable). Stick a, say, 130 grain PBP-type bullet in a .45 Super case and I'll bet you it'll outperform the 9mm PBP load by a fair margin. However, a saboted 7.62x25mm load, like a .223 Timbs with an M995 bullet, would likely outperform both of the above loads, though not by much (say 200 fps).

But let's keep in mind that we're talking about specialized loads for all of these cartridges.

QUOTE
Trolls, specifically, may not matter, but the general greater availability of big nasties in the 2060s is arguable cause to move to something with a bit more penetration for general use.

Absolutely. It's called a rifle. wink.gif

QUOTE
There's a significant difference there, though, in that the ubiquity of armor was simply theorized 20 years ago; in terms of speculating on the 2060s, it's definitely more available and more accessible for everyday wear.  That changes the dynamic quite a bit.

It's just about the only thing that changes the dynamic at all, but I would have to disagree that there is anything definite about it. I personally don't think body armor would be any more prevalent in SR than it is today. But because we play Shadowrunners who wear armor constantly, it colors our impression of what the rest of the world does. The vast majority of the rest of the people on the planet would have absolutely no need to wear body armor, nor would they want to on a regular basis. I'm sure its popularity as fashion would increase with wearability, but the expense of it would keep it far out of the mainstream. This is not addressing at all any legislation that might limit body armor availability.

Also, while this doesn't have anywhere near the significance that it should in relation to SR, you can always shoot (or be shot) where there isn't any armor.

The only thing that would significantly change any of this is if body armor became, universally, much, much more prevalent. And I really don't see that happening, even in Shadowrun. I guess that means, once again, that it all depends on how you play the game.
Wounded Ronin
Firstly, I would point out that .45 ACP is still considered one of the best cartridges, in spite of the fact that a lot of scifi futuristic nutriders tend to nutride 9mm and 10mm as being more cool. A lot of people would rather load .45 ACP than 10mm. So I think that the whole idea of .45 ACP falling by the wayside in the future in favor of strafe-jumping 10mm is overstated from the start.

Secondly, in response to Raygun's last post: Armor Clothing. I thought everyone was supposed to walk around with Armor Clothing.
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