How to kill a doberman - Dumpshock Forums

How to kill a doberman, drone that is

Nikoli View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 02:26 PM Post #101
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	Well, given the fact it was a brick veneers, I'd say single layer normal bricks

Tarantula View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 02:52 PM Post #102
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	Dual charge double offensive grenade anyone? Huck one it, gangers are done, and either they liquify from chunky salsa effect, or eventually one of the walls gives up and the building lands on them. More practical than 7,000 rounds of ammo (but its not that hard to make a medium drone (size of a small car) hold that much).

toturi

Jan 26 2005, 03:09 PM

Post #103

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QUOTE (hobgoblin)

and what makes concrete strong is the metal reinforcements. without those it would not be able to carry its own weight. its only with cheap massproduced metal supports that concrete have become the material of choice. before that it was only the glue that holds the blicks together. the concrete stops the metal from bending under pressure, the metal binds the concrete together. take out one and the weight of the rest of the structure will crush it all to dust.

and the hardness of the concrete allso depends on the blend. mix it cheap and it may be able to stand up but will not withstand much punishment. and there is allso the question of the thickness.

again to many factors...

I do not where you got that from. You can have a concrete structure that is perfectly immune to small arms fire with or without steel reinfrcement. As long as that part of the structure is under compression, you can simply use pure concrete for all I care. But yes, to be safe, engineers put in steel reinforcements. Sometimes, the steel reinforcement isn't there to provide structural support, but simply there for cosmetic reasons. And trust me, if concrete was so weak, the colosseum would have crumbled to dust a long time ago.

And if you know what you are doing, it doesn't matter what "blend" it is. And do not be fooled: while in a static situation, the concrete might be able to take only a certain force, in a dynamic situation such as small arms fire or grenade/bomb attacks, it can take up to 50 times the equivalent force without failure.

Austere Emancipa...

Jan 26 2005, 03:18 PM

Post #104

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QUOTE (Tarantula)

[...] or eventually one of the walls gives up and the building lands on them.

Well, in all fairness, any building that a hand grenade can collapse (very light wooden structures) is going to be riddled pretty nicely with any machine gun. You might need as many hand grenades (even if they're dual-charge IPE...) as you'd need HMG rounds to make a concrete structure collapse, especially if there is a lot of empty space (large rooms) in the building.

QUOTE (Tarantula)

(but its not that hard to make a medium drone (size of a small car) hold that much)

True, 7000 rounds of HMG ammo "only" weigh 350kg in SR. On the other hand, it'll take you almost 12 minutes to go through all those with a HMG assuming 3 actions per CT. Good thing SR doesn't handle overheating weapons, too. ;)

Tarantula View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 03:28 PM Post #105
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	I meant in shadowrun rules Austere, each time the blast from the nade hits a barrier, it bounced, but also damages the barrier. Chunky salsa on all the people, and depending on the size of the room, walls will be coming down as well.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 03:38 PM Post #106
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	For those that care, here is the answer from the FAQ guys about drones and stairs: >Hi James, >The books don't say, as far as I know, except for the drones that >are described as having a stair-climbing mode. > >Since some drones are described that way, I figure that all the rest >can't make it up stairs, regardless of piloting roll. > >That's just my impression -- as one Shadowrun GM to another -- since >the books don't give a precise answer. > >Good luck! >--ShadowFaq > >----- Original Message ----- From: "James McMurray" ><jt_mcmurray at hotmail.com> >To: info at shadowrunrpg.com >Subject: Driving drones up stairs >Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:35:33 -0600 > >What would be the target number for driving a wheeled or tracked >drone up >stairs?

Austere Emancipa...

Jan 26 2005, 03:55 PM

Post #107

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QUOTE (Tarantula)

I meant in shadowrun rules Austere, each time the blast from the nade hits a barrier, it bounced, but also damages the barrier. Chunky salsa on all the people, and depending on the size of the room, walls will be coming down as well.

Yeah, I forgot to add the SR aspect to this discussion.

The BR will be effectively doubled against bullets and blasts to see if they break. Plasterboard walls probably count as Cheap Material (BR 3), which will blown to bits by just about any attack. A brick veneer would count as Average Material (BR 4) and could stand up to some punishment from Light Pistols and some SMGs, but anything heavier (including hand grenades) would blow it up. A double brick wall would count as (at least) Heavy Material (BR 6), and could stand up to some AR or MG fire before being blown to bits. An IPE grenade within some meters of a wall would blow all of these apart in an instant.

The 10" reinforced concrete wall, though, being by definition Structural Materials with a BR of 12, would be invulnerable to anything up to and including shotguns, heavy pistols, sporting rifles, and burst fire from ARs, SMGs and LMGs. Fully automatic fire from any weapons could blow a 0.5-meter hole in the target after 40-60 or so rounds. However, IPE hand grenades would manage this in just a few blasts -- pretty silly, but one shouldn't expect RPG rules to handle things like this a decent manner anyway, I doubt anyone wants to see 10 pages of rules on effects of different weapon types on building materials.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jan 26 2005, 03:59 PM

Tarantula View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 03:58 PM Post #108
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	A dual charged IPE grenade would drop it in, well, the second wave to hit after the initial 2.

James McMurray

Jan 26 2005, 04:02 PM

Post #109

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QUOTE

The 10" reinforced concrete wall, though, being by definition Structural Materials with a BR of 12, would be invulnerable to anything up to and including shotguns, heavy pistols, sporting rifles, and burst fire from ARs, SMGs and LMGs. Fully automatic fire from any weapons could blow a 0.5-meter hole in the target after 40-60 or so rounds.

I don't have my book handy, but I believe that barrier ratings apply to the base power ofa weapon, before any modifiers for burst fire. That would mean that you need a weapon of power 25 or higher to penetrate a barrier rating of 12.

Tarantula View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 04:09 PM Post #110
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	I thought that if the power exceeded by at least half the barrier rating, it reduced the rating. So as long as they had a power of 6 or higher, they would drop the barrier to 11, then again to 10, 5 or higher to drop to 9/8, and so on.

Demosthenes View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 04:13 PM Post #111
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850	And in a small enough space, the chunky salsa effect might well damage the barrier causing the chunky salsa effect, if you see what I mean. Though that is a little silly.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 04:20 PM Post #112
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	I forgot about reducing the rating. Speaking of reducing the rating, what do people think about using that rule for drones? Vehicle armor has almost the same rules as barriers, except that you can't reduce the rating. Making it so that several shots from an assault rifle can eventually penetrate armor might make things more balanced. Perhaps give the +4 called shot modifier because you need to continually aim at the same general spot on the drone to have cumulative effects.

Austere Emancipa...

Jan 26 2005, 04:27 PM

Post #113

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QUOTE (James McMurray)

I don't have my book handy, but I believe that barrier ratings apply to the base power ofa weapon, before any modifiers for burst fire. That would mean that you need a weapon of power 25 or higher to penetrate a barrier rating of 12.

QUOTE (Tarantula)

I thought that if the power exceeded by at least half the barrier rating, it reduced the rating. So as long as they had a power of 6 or higher, they would drop the barrier to 11, then again to 10, 5 or higher to drop to 9/8, and so on.

You're both a bit off. First, the (effective) Barrier Rating is, in all cases that I'm aware of, compared to the Power of the attack, not the base Power. Thus a 10-round burst from a Machine Pistol can make short work of a brick wall.

Firing at or having an uncontrolled explosion against a barrier doubles the effective Barrier Rating, as per sr3.119 & sr3.125. This means you need a Power of 13 or higher with a grenade or regular ammunition with a small arm to damage a Barrier Rating of 12. That's why a BR 12 wall is invulnerable to burst fire from an AR, but burst fire from a HMG will eventually break it down.

Explosive ammunition gets completely ridiculous against Barriers, though: a literal reading of the related section on sr3.114 coupled with EX-Explosive ammunition and a FA capable Machine Pistol could reduce a BR 32 wall into rubble in seconds. Even with a more reasonable reading of that section, Explosive ammunition just eats up any barrier.

QUOTE (Demosthenes)

And in a small enough space, the chunky salsa effect might well damage the barrier causing the chunky salsa effect, if you see what I mean. Though that is a little silly.

Talking about silly...

James McMurray View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 04:34 PM Post #114
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	That's what happens when I reply without a book handy. :)

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 04:36 PM Post #115
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	No worries, that's why there's guys like me with the books in a stack next to the keyboard always hanging around the forums. ;)

Tarantula View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 04:38 PM Post #116
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	Err, right, I forgot its doubled against just regular fire too. So you need power 13 on your gun to start breaking down the barrier, other than that, my post was fine. :P

Bigity View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 04:49 PM Post #117
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024	So, how about an adept with Smashing Blow and Attribute Boost: Strength?

BitBasher

Jan 26 2005, 05:14 PM

Post #118

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QUOTE (Bigity)

So, how about an adept with Smashing Blow and Attribute Boost: Strength?

The barrier is much like Jenna Jameson in this instance. Screwed.

Botch

Jan 26 2005, 05:15 PM

Post #119

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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jan 26 2005, 02:08 PM)

.... and what makes concrete strong is the metal reinforcements. without those it would not be able to carry its own weight... .

2 words - Petronas Towers

Concrete is not strictly a material, it's more a fabrication type. Many modern concretes are strictly temporary (50 to 80 years before total failure) whilst others last for over 2,000 (Colliseum).

Botch

Jan 26 2005, 05:19 PM

Post #120

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QUOTE (Nikoli)

Also, a friend of mine lives in an area where the occaisonal report of small arms fire is not uncommon (Ocean Avenue in Virginia Beach), a 9 mm round penetrated through the brick facing and lodged in an interior structural wall. Brick is pretty rough stuff to penetrate. Also, I can't garuntee it was a 9mm but given that the calibre seems to be the round of choice for most criminals and it's incredibly available world wide, it's a safe bet.

Umm, did it shatter the brick or just hit the mortar join?

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 05:33 PM Post #121
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	With a decent Wallhacker-build you don't need Smashing Blow until you get to BRs over 14. A specialist wallbasher-specialist build would be possible, a Ghouled Cyclops with no real skills apart from Unarmed Combat and max AttrBoost and ImpAttr, or whatever allows for the highest STR. This might allow you to smack down walls of BRs up to ~25-28 or so, but the character won't be very useful for anything else. Dumpshock.Com is really acting up...

Jrayjoker

Jan 26 2005, 05:51 PM

Post #122

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

So, to reduce to rubble the face of a 10 meters wide by 2.5 meters tall building the outer wall of which is made of 25cm thick reinforced concrete, you need to blast it with at least ~7000 rounds from a heavy machine gun or more than 20000 rounds with a MMG. Sounds like a fun way to spend an afternoon... Admittedly I don't know enough about engineering to figure out if the face of the building might collapse some time before that.

Truth be told, if the concrete building is sufficiently complicated (interior load bearing walls, not designed to absolute capacity, etc.) it may only suffer local failures of the surrounding structure with an entire wall gone, and if the wall is infill only and does not contribute to the structural capacity of the beams and columns nothing may happen except some sagging in isolated areas. Add to that the fact that the building is probably designed for loads in exccess of what actually occurs, and the loss of the wall not occuring during the storm of the century or an earthquake, the great likelyhood is that nothing will happen immediately.

BitBasher

Jan 26 2005, 06:08 PM

Post #123

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

With a decent Wallhacker-build you don't need Smashing Blow until you get to BRs over 14. A specialist wallbasher-specialist build would be possible, a Ghouled Cyclops with no real skills apart from Unarmed Combat and max AttrBoost and ImpAttr, or whatever allows for the highest STR. This might allow you to smack down walls of BRs up to ~25-28 or so, but the character won't be very useful for anything else.

Dumpshock.Com is really acting up...

How does that work since I was pretty sure that without Smashing Blow barrier ratings were doubled against melee attacks?

Austere Emancipa...

Jan 26 2005, 06:25 PM

Post #124

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QUOTE (Jrayjoker)

Truth be told, if the concrete building is sufficiently complicated (interior load bearing walls, not designed to absolute capacity, etc.) it may only suffer local failures of the surrounding structure with an entire wall gone, and if the wall is infill only and does not contribute to the structural capacity of the beams and columns nothing may happen except some sagging in isolated areas.

Oh I wasn't really trying to say that'd be the end of that building or anything. I was just kiddingly trying to figure out how long you'd have to keep shooting at a single wall before you can reduce it to rubble. Although, after 7000 HMG rounds fired through there, most things not protected by another equally thick wall will be in a pretty bad condition.

QUOTE (BitBasher)

How does that work since I was pretty sure that without Smashing Blow barrier ratings were doubled against melee attacks?

Yep, they are. However, with a Power of 29, you'll still be blowing 0.5+ meter holes into any object with a BR of 14 or lower.

BitBasher View Member Profile	Jan 26 2005, 06:28 PM Post #125
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220	aaaaah, okay =)

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