 Garrote Wires anyone?, Rules about choking someone silently |
  |
 Feb 2 2005, 09:36 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 1-December 03 From: Des Moines, IA Member No.: 5,866  |
Hey everyone,
My GM said he was going to do this, but he's been ill, so I'm taking it on myself to pose the question. As usual, if this has been answered in another post, please let me know and this topic can die slowly into DSF history. Anyway, what are the rules regarding the use of garrote/strangling wires in SR? I looked in the cannon companion and the main rule book, but there is nothing on this. Is it just an opposed strength test? How quiet is it? Etc. I know some people may just say to use a monofilament wire and chop the head right off, but that's a little gruesome, not to mention messy. Thanks in advance for any info you can give. |
 |
 
|
|
Feb 2 2005, 09:46 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
The problems with the monofilament wire may be be some gurgling noises as the body might not know it's dead yet, the body flops around, the lung might do one last exhale as it gurgles out of the stump of the neck as the blood still flows out...
Plus, the cleanup of the blood... if you don't want anyone to discover the body till later, the large splatter of blood from the monofilament wires might not help in stealth. And there's the matter of having two pieces to pick up, the body and then the head... though it might be easier in sticking it a smaller than container than previously. Still, it's probably easier to drag the body without having to worry about the head rolling away into some sensors or something... hehe, ok, sorry, gruesome thoughts there... :evil: |
|
|
|
|
Feb 2 2005, 09:49 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Incapacitation can occur quite quickly, 1-10 seconds, if the blood flow to the brain is cut off completely. Think "Sleeper" hold from pro wrestling. And yes, they really do work when applied correctly.
So I would treat the inital attack as garrote skill versus strength or dex (whichever is higher) with stealth checks for positioning, and ambush/surprise per canon, then staging stun damage as normal. The power of the attack should be strength+2S with no impact armor allowed for reduction unless the character description includes neck protection, etc. (Trolls dermal armor does work). After the character is incapacitated the kill can be a coup de grace. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 2 2005, 09:53 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
You could also adapt the "subduing combat" stuff, which I think is now in cannon companion.
So basically you would be doing subduing combat preventing the person from calling out, then you can apply damage to them with a strength test or something. The Garrot would then be like brass knuckles: an unarmed combat weapon. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 2 2005, 09:53 PM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 496 Joined: 28-June 02 From: Orlando FL Member No.: 2,915 |
I would say to use the rules for Subduing on pg 86 of CC...it specifically mentions strangling your opponent...for using a garrotte, you might want to give a +1 Strength - although it is not a "one handed" weapon, it is only effective when using both hands pulling together, etc...different than just thrusting a knife...
as for how quiet, that would be just an opposed Stealth test, IMO... as always, YMMV EDIT: didn't type fast enough! |
|
|
|
|
Feb 2 2005, 10:29 PM
Post
#6
|
|||
|
Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
What exactly do you mean? The usual (attacker Stealth vs perceiver Intelligence)? That doesn't leave any room for the victim to do anything about it, is that your intent? Or an opposed roll between the attacker and the victim, of some sort? I'm not sure if there's canon evidence for using Stealth to keep someone else quiet, but maybe there is. I don't know anything about garotting that doesn't come from Hitman. 8) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 2 2005, 10:51 PM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I would base the ability to keep the target silent on the number of net successes you get. Perhaps each net successs on the attack applies a +1 modifier to preception tests to hear what's going on.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 2 2005, 11:05 PM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'd require a successful Stealth test just to get to use a garrote properly in the first place. Using one properly on an aware opponent is not an easy task.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 2 2005, 11:10 PM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Yeah, definitely that. A well-trained person (at least in the movies) will hear you sneaking up and put their hand in the way. OF course, if you're using barbed wire that will hurt like hell, but its preferable to choking to death.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2005, 12:12 AM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
The gurgle when people's throats are cut is the reason the OSS devised the Smatchett for it's operatives during WWII. It has enough mass to klonk someone atop the head and knock 'em out, yet still serves as a usefull bladed weapon.
You could just pistol whip or butt-stroke them too. |
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2005, 12:51 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Mmmmm.... Butt-stroke....
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2005, 01:45 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Must ... not ... comment!
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2005, 02:03 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
This thread, Rules for strangling a character?, Where are they?, had some interesting ideas.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2005, 03:53 AM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630 |
IIRC, the original garrotte, used by the ancient Thuggee cult (pronouced "Tuggee", I believe; that's the plural--the singular form is "Thug", pronounced "Tug") in India, was an ordinary silk scarf with a coin in the middle of it.
The coin was held in place by a knot on either side, I think. The idea was not only to cut off the oxygen supply to the victim's brain, but to crush the larynx as well, in order to stifle any outcry. In the classic World War II film Von Ryan's Express (1965), starring Frank Sinatra as "Colonel Joseph 'Von' Ryan", and Trevor Howard as "Major Eric Fincham" , Howard's character makes a simple version of that style of garrotte by taking a length of (approximately) one-inch-diameter manila rope, doubling it back on itself, and tying a knot in the middle of it. He then demonstrates on another soldier (fortunately without killing him :) ), by placing the knot against the man's Adam's Apple, then putting his left knee in the "victim" 's lower back, against the spine, while pantomiming forcing his knee forward while simultaneously pulling up and back on the garrotte. He finishes the demonstration by saying: "The knot crushes the larynx, stifling any outcry; the knee breaks his back. Do it right, and he's dead in fifteen seconds. Thug garrotte, India." (I'm not certain that I have the quote exactly right, but that was the gist of it. ;) ) I'm not certain that it would work in SR but, theoretically at least, it would be quieter than the piano-wire versions so often shown in films (not to mention the monowire variety :) ), and a lot less messy. Another possibility, as Jrayjoker suggested, would be to use a wrestling-style Sleeper hold (also known, I believe, to law-enforcement officers as the "carotid stranglehold"), to render the victim unconscious, then break his/her neck once he/she stops resisting. As always, YMMV. --Foreigner |
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2005, 04:01 AM
Post
#15
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
You are correct. I don't think it was called a "garrotte," though. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 3 2005, 04:04 AM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630 |
kevyn668:
Gotcha. Thanks. :) --Foreigner |
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2005, 04:06 AM
Post
#17
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I live to serve.
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2005, 04:06 AM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Please don't make me launch into my rant about "monowire garrottes". It's been almost a year, IIRC.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2005, 04:14 AM
Post
#19
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 190 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,787 |
no matter how weird or outlandish the topic, someone on this board is always an expert.
We need to get lives, don't we? |
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2005, 04:25 AM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
What? I have a life. I just spend it here. There's nothing wrong with spending your nights on a RPG BB...even if that night is New Year's Eve...And you spend it in a flame war...About demons ruling the world.
Err...yep, you're right. :D |
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2005, 04:36 AM
Post
#21
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Or failing to, as the case may be. :P |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Feb 3 2005, 04:37 AM
Post
#22
|
|||||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Or not failing to, as the case may be :P ~J |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Feb 3 2005, 04:40 AM
Post
#23
|
|||||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Or failing to. As the case is. :P [ Spoiler ]
|
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Feb 3 2005, 04:40 AM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Well, if it's between humans and horrors, then demons win either way. As the case may be :D
|
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2005, 04:43 AM
Post
#25
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Clever fellow. :)
Hell with it...GO HUMANS!! :D |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 5th February 2025 - 11:52 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.