Hey everyone,

My GM said he was going to do this, but he's been ill, so I'm taking it on myself to pose the question. As usual, if this has been answered in another post, please let me know and this topic can die slowly into DSF history.

Anyway, what are the rules regarding the use of garrote/strangling wires in SR? I looked in the cannon companion and the main rule book, but there is nothing on this. Is it just an opposed strength test? How quiet is it? Etc.

I know some people may just say to use a monofilament wire and chop the head right off, but that's a little gruesome, not to mention messy.

Thanks in advance for any info you can give.

The problems with the monofilament wire may be be some gurgling noises as the body might not know it's dead yet, the body flops around, the lung might do one last exhale as it gurgles out of the stump of the neck as the blood still flows out...

Plus, the cleanup of the blood... if you don't want anyone to discover the body till later, the large splatter of blood from the monofilament wires might not help in stealth.

And there's the matter of having two pieces to pick up, the body and then the head... though it might be easier in sticking it a smaller than container than previously. Still, it's probably easier to drag the body without having to worry about the head rolling away into some sensors or something...

hehe, ok, sorry, gruesome thoughts there...

Incapacitation can occur quite quickly, 1-10 seconds, if the blood flow to the brain is cut off completely. Think "Sleeper" hold from pro wrestling. And yes, they really do work when applied correctly.

So I would treat the inital attack as garrote skill versus strength or dex (whichever is higher) with stealth checks for positioning, and ambush/surprise per canon, then staging stun damage as normal. The power of the attack should be strength+2S with no impact armor allowed for reduction unless the character description includes neck protection, etc. (Trolls dermal armor does work).

After the character is incapacitated the kill can be a coup de grace.

You could also adapt the "subduing combat" stuff, which I think is now in cannon companion.

So basically you would be doing subduing combat preventing the person from calling out, then you can apply damage to them with a strength test or something.

The Garrot would then be like brass knuckles: an unarmed combat weapon.

I would say to use the rules for Subduing on pg 86 of CC...it specifically mentions strangling your opponent...for using a garrotte, you might want to give a +1 Strength - although it is not a "one handed" weapon, it is only effective when using both hands pulling together, etc...different than just thrusting a knife...

as for how quiet, that would be just an opposed Stealth test, IMO...

as always, YMMV

EDIT: didn't type fast enough!

I would base the ability to keep the target silent on the number of net successes you get. Perhaps each net successs on the attack applies a +1 modifier to preception tests to hear what's going on.

I'd require a successful Stealth test just to get to use a garrote properly in the first place. Using one properly on an aware opponent is not an easy task.

Yeah, definitely that. A well-trained person (at least in the movies) will hear you sneaking up and put their hand in the way. OF course, if you're using barbed wire that will hurt like hell, but its preferable to choking to death.

The gurgle when people's throats are cut is the reason the OSS devised the Smatchett for it's operatives during WWII. It has enough mass to klonk someone atop the head and knock 'em out, yet still serves as a usefull bladed weapon.

You could just pistol whip or butt-stroke them too.

Mmmmm.... Butt-stroke....

Must ... not ... comment!

This thread, Rules for strangling a character?, Where are they?, had some interesting ideas.

IIRC, the original garrotte, used by the ancient Thuggee cult (pronouced "Tuggee", I believe; that's the plural--the singular form is "Thug", pronounced "Tug") in India, was an ordinary silk scarf with a coin in the middle of it.

The coin was held in place by a knot on either side, I think.

The idea was not only to cut off the oxygen supply to the victim's brain, but to crush the larynx as well, in order to stifle any outcry.

In the classic World War II film Von Ryan's Express (1965), starring Frank Sinatra as "Colonel Joseph 'Von' Ryan", and Trevor Howard as "Major Eric Fincham" , Howard's character makes a simple version of that style of garrotte by taking a length of (approximately) one-inch-diameter manila rope, doubling it back on itself, and tying a knot in the middle of it. He then demonstrates on another soldier (fortunately without killing him ), by placing the knot against the man's Adam's Apple, then putting his left knee in the "victim" 's lower back, against the spine, while pantomiming forcing his knee forward while simultaneously pulling up and back on the garrotte.

He finishes the demonstration by saying:

"The knot crushes the larynx, stifling any outcry; the knee breaks his back. Do it right, and he's dead in fifteen seconds. Thug garrotte, India."

(I'm not certain that I have the quote exactly right, but that was the gist of it. )

I'm not certain that it would work in SR but, theoretically at least, it would be quieter than the piano-wire versions so often shown in films (not to mention the monowire variety ), and a lot less messy.


Another possibility, as Jrayjoker suggested, would be to use a wrestling-style Sleeper hold (also known, I believe, to law-enforcement officers as the "carotid stranglehold"), to render the victim unconscious, then break his/her neck once he/she stops resisting.

As always, YMMV.

--Foreigner

kevyn668:

Gotcha. Thanks.

--Foreigner

I live to serve.

Please don't make me launch into my rant about "monowire garrottes". It's been almost a year, IIRC.

~J

no matter how weird or outlandish the topic, someone on this board is always an expert.

We need to get lives, don't we?

What? I have a life. I just spend it here. There's nothing wrong with spending your nights on a RPG BB...even if that night is New Year's Eve...And you spend it in a flame war...About demons ruling the world.

Err...yep, you're right.

Well, if it's between humans and horrors, then demons win either way. As the case may be

Clever fellow.

Hell with it...GO HUMANS!!

True! We're the demons ... they are the Horrors.

There would have been had you not pulled it to the top.

HORRORS RULE!

6 billion humans with nukes... I ain't betting on the Horrors on this one...

Six billion humans with nukes is exactly the reason the Horrors have this one in the bag.

~J

I wonder how long before we work out how to get a nuke through a spirit's Astral Gateway... "Express delivery for the Horror dimension!"

Snow_Fox:

You could be right. I hadn't considered that.

OTOH, another possibility could be that depicting the use of a piano-wire garrotte realistically was too much for the censorship laws of the era. The film was rated "PG", and in 1965, "PG" usually meant nothing was allowed except unrealistic violence and some mild swearing.

--Foreigner

You don't get people to pass out from crushing their larynx, you make then pass out by cutting off the bloodflow to your brain. If you cut it off well enough, they'll drop within 10 seconds, usually closer to 5. You can do that without even touching the larynx (with a choke, not with a garrotte). A 'sleeper hold' or any of the other names doesn't touch the larynx if you do it right. the end of one forearm, near your wrist cuts off one of their arteries, and your bicep cuts the other one off from the other side. The point of your elbow sticks out in front of their chin, and you don't hurt their larynx at all. The bonus to this is most people don't realize you've gotten them in an incapacitating choke until they notice their vision start dropping, and by then, its too late.

As far as garrotte wires, small thin and strong is what you want, but not thin enough to cut.

Don't forget flexible....

And I never even had the chance to notice the vision going when it was applied to me.

Thats why its too late, when you blackout, your vision drops dark, usually its at the same time you're losing conciousness, so its not really noticed.

When I was doing judo, I was working out with a friend who was very large. He had never been choked out and wanted to know what it was like. He trusted me to do it. He got on his knees so he wouldn't have far to fall and i stood in front of him. Grabbed a lapel of his gie in each hands and jambed my knuckles into the sides of his neck.

He turned red. Huis face got puffy, but, htinking he was giving directions he startedsaying , through clenched teeth, "I can still breath, I can still breath I can still breath...." then he toppled over. When he came too a little later he looked at me and said "What happened? I could still breath"
I just smiled and said "Sure, I couldn't get my arm around your neck, I just cut off the blood flow to your brain."
"Oh"

Sensei was very amused by it all because of what I chose to do, how I did it and the fact the big man didn't realize what the threat from lil' ol' me was. He was pleased.