 The Emperor's New Bullets?, Even Emperors gotta shoot people... |
  |
 Mar 9 2005, 07:01 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701  |
As the thread title implies, this was inspired from the make clothing thread, along with a comment about a "permanent six-shooter" here.
OK, it's canon that Physical Manips can make relatively permanent items. There are spells that create Food and Water. The previous thread discussed options for making permanent clothing. How about taking that one step further? How about making Bullets? Before jumping up and down and tossing animal droppings at me, hear me out. The basic FMJ bullet, after all, is basically a shaped lump of metal with gunpowder in a sealed case, right? So it's hardly a complicated machine or anything like that. So would it be possible to make a spell that would be darned useful for a team that was cut-off from its regular supply chain (ie, in hostile territory), but not be overtly unbalancing to the point where sammies start ignoring their armsdealers and regularly hit up the beleaguered mage for their weekly stash? As an example, making the spells target number equal to the Avail of the bullets; that way, the more powerful shells are still just as hard to get as they should be. Have the spell make, what, 10 bullets, per success, up to the spell's Force. Too outlandish? |
 |
 
|
|
Mar 9 2005, 07:15 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I'd make the TN equal to OR and have extra successes count to making better bullets - something like a Power equal to the number of successes up to Force and the Drain equal to the damage level (both limited by weapon). One bullet at a time (or a success threshold equal to the number of bullets) and with a long sustaining period, it might be balanced.
Not that I'd actually allow it. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2005, 07:23 PM
Post
#3
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The current RL armed forces standard, cased rifle cartridge is basically a metal cylinder open on one end with a chemical propellant inside and a shaped lump made of (possibly several separate) metal composite(s) inside a metal jacket (hence FMJ). In the other end there is a thin metal "cup" with more some more volatile chemical inside. A caseless cartridge gets rid of the first metal cylinder and the metal cup in its bottom, and replaces the propellant with a more complex one with a specific kind of coating. On a molecular level, though, it's probably a hell of a lot simpler than foodstuffs, which a spell can (in canon) create. I wouldn't allow it in my games, because I flat out decided that spells cannot create significant amounts of mass for an extended period of time, but I guess it's a worthwhile idea. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 9 2005, 07:30 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Wouldn't it just be easier to buy a box of ammo? Besides, if you're gun clicks empty and you have magical powers, why not just use them to heave a powerball or stunball?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2005, 07:33 PM
Post
#5
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701 |
Yes it would. And if we were in the city, I'm still wanting the sammies to buy them. This spell idea is for support your gun-bunny teammates when your team is cut off from external resources (ie, remote locations in the wilderness) and needs some bullets to complete the mission. For example, the spell "Create Food/Water" doesn't mean that the person never eats at Stuffer Shacks or gets a reduced lifestyle cost. It's just to fill in for unusual circumstances. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 9 2005, 08:02 PM
Post
#6
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 190 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,787 |
The bullet only has to last until it goes through it's target. After that, who cares except the doctors. (OK, It's got to be in here, I'll just fish around some more...) I can see making bullets. Sucky bullets, and the mage needing a high [Gun] B/R skill, and a LOT of sucesses, and not expecting them to last more than a couple minutes, for a lot of drain. But still, bullets. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 9 2005, 08:23 PM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I eliminated the create food and water spell and outlawed any spell that permanently created anything. The canon examples of those spells cause damn near anything to break down taken to their logical extensions, create ammo being a perfect example. Horribly horribly broken.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2005, 08:27 PM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Yeah, talk to the GM before picking up a spell like that. If he's a whiner like BitBasher here, skip it and take Detect GM Whim instead. If the GM has no problem with it, start asking about Create Honda.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2005, 08:39 PM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
One suggestion we had for our games was that every subsequent casting of any "permanent spells" like Fashion, Create Water, and Create Food, would have a +2 target number modifier (cumulative), so people can't spam water or food spells for stockpiles or constantly reknit their clothes. This never actually came up, because everyone in our group thinks the spells are too cheesy to do something like that, but it does explain why NPCs aren't doing that.
EDIT: Oh, *smacks forehead* I meant a +2 modifier (cumulative) per 12 hour period of time (sunrise/sunset). |
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2005, 08:51 PM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
The way I'd have it is to allow the create bullets, but turn it into a transmutation spell, similar to Fashion, and less like Create Food/Water. I could see how Create Water would work, but create food baffles me. Fashion does not, so I'd apply similar principles. You can't just magic a bullet up from nowhere, you have to have the proper raw materials present and know what it is you're trying to create (a ballistics background knowledge skill would be enough, rolled appropriately for the desired bullet type), then you cast the spell on the materials, sustain until permanent, and voila! say, 10 bullets for every 2 successes, min 10 bullets. Tgt # would be the OR of the bullet. Downside: Each bullet would carry the magician's signature, as they were created via his magic.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2005, 08:52 PM
Post
#11
|
|||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
*psst* It's actually transmuted excrement from the spellcaster's colon, magically enhanced to taste like chicken. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 9 2005, 08:56 PM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Except that it tastes almost exactly like soy-loaf according to the spell description.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:05 PM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
And you Sir, are a poo poo head ;) Seriously. Create ammo is fundamentally no different than Create AV ammo, or Create APDS, or Create Panther Canon or Create Briefcase Atomic Weapon. Assuming your players are not retarded, and you keep your game internally consistent, it'll cause problems likely sooner than later. :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:06 PM
Post
#14
|
|||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
What do you think soy-loaf tastes like? No one actually eats chicken in SR anymore... they are probably all extinct or Awakened. :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:12 PM
Post
#15
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701 |
Wait a minute...a couple of people have suggested making Gun (B/R) (or similar skills like KN: Ballistics) a component of making this spell work. That doesn't make sense. A caster doesn't need KN: Fashion to cast the "Fashion" spell. A caster doesn't need an actifve skill Cooking to cast "Create Food". For that matter, a caster sure as heck doesn't need Molecular Biology, or SubAtomic Physics to cast "Transmutation". And I object to the statement that one can't create bullets out of nothing, or that spells can't create simple items with a permanent duration; the canon spell "Create Food" directly contradicts them both. Let me make it clear; I don't object to people's suggestions with regard to the balance (or lack of) for the idea, or why the canon rules would or wouldn't allow it. But several here are twisting, changing, or just flat out fiat declaring it impossible w/o explaining why the spell would be illegal in SR3/MITS canon spell creation rules.
If you read my original idea, I was proposing linking the Availability code as the target number (with the half-baked idea that the advanced stuff was more complex and thus harder to create). The ammo you list here would all have double-digit target numbers, which would theoretically severely limit how much got created (just as trying to find this ammo on the streets is just as hard). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:07 PM
Post
#16
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Maybe. I remember this basic discussion before. Since I have no objections to the spirit power "Wealth" I also have no objections with Create ____ spells. I just make the TN difficult the less familiar the concept is to an untrained sentient being. So create food is easy, create Honda Viking is somewhat tough but doable, and the famed create antimatter is functionally impossible unless the character has been to an anti-reality before. Really, if you can't figure out consequences for PC mages trying to sell off thousands of :nuyen: worth of materials with their astral signature all over them, you should spend more time thinking about options than bashing the rules already present. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:08 PM
Post
#17
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
ah, but the caster DOES need to know what he wants to make. Food created with Make Food tastes like soyloaf because the caster has no bloody idea how to put the created molocules together in the right way to make anything with taste to it (If he gets enough successes he succeeds in adding a few flavors). Fashion just rearranges and recolours fabric to the caster's tastes. The caster needs to know what the end product will be, and if you want to make a useable bullet, and not something that just LOOKS like a bullet, you're going to need to know and fix in your mind exactly how one is put together.
Also towards making something out of nothing, sure a spell can do that, it's just energy transferrence, like every other spell. I just wouldn't allow it in my game, that's all. I have my 'make bullets' spell work on the same principles as fashion instead of create food. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:20 PM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
Don't worry Lina - you ain't getting the spell. So sayeth your GM. :vegm:
Feel free to discuss away tho... Frankly, Create Ammo would cause problems because if I allow that, then the variants logically become possible. And then I *know* you guys wouldn't be searching for APDS and AV ammo every game session...you'd create your own cottage industry. That reminds me - If this spell would exist in SR Canon, I would think the Ammo buisness union would ruthlessly hunt down any mages who knew that spell. :) |
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:21 PM
Post
#19
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
hahnsoo: Why do you have such a problem with the Fashion spell? So what if the PCs can alter the appearance of their clothes? It still takes a relatively high Force spell to alter significant amounts of armoring.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:21 PM
Post
#20
|
|||
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
The catch is that this isn't DnD, the casters astral signature vanishes after a number of hours. The real abuse in this spell has nothing to do with selling, it has to do with players gaining supplies of whatever the heck they want while being able to totally ignore availability., It's an entire set of problems that's entered into when this becomes an option. Incidentally I've never actually used the wealth power in my games, it's never come up.
Except that the spell doesn't take like anythign better regardless of any extra skills he has, there's nothing canon to support your point. The caster doesn't assemble any molecules, nor does he even have to know what a molecule is for the spell to work.
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:25 PM
Post
#21
|
|||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I have a problem with it? No, we just put the "create permanent" restrictions into place as a house rule just to prevent silly things from happening... more importantly, to prevent NPCs from doing said silly things, or at least explain why it wouldn't be prudent to cast multiple Force 1 Create Water spells instead of 1 Force 6 Create Water spell (aside from drain). I love the permanent spells. We just put an artificial limit to ease our minds about them. It prevents any permanent spell from becoming too cheesy. EDIT: Oh, *smacks forehead* I meant a +2 modifier (cumulative) per 12 hour period of time (sunrise/sunset). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:17 PM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
Heh - I have in my game a Force 12 Free spirit that has wealth amongst his powers - he actually has become an independent Johnson that hunts down bug hives and uses the wealth power to fund hiring mercenaries to help him.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:19 PM
Post
#23
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701 |
This is up to you, but as I said above, using this spell for AV/APDS is no easier than buying them conventionally; I use the Avail tgt # as the spell tgt #.
Well then, for that matter, what's stopping a character from learning "Guns B/R" or "Ballistics B/R" skills, buying a Ammo Shop (100K, right?) and making their own APDS or AV ammo? In RL, there are already gun enthusiasts who make their own shells, so this is hardly out of bounds. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:30 PM
Post
#24
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701 |
Sigh... for the 3rd time, read the original idea again. Availability of the desired shell is the spell's target number. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 9 2005, 09:34 PM
Post
#25
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
Eh, you'd still be making it for free. And there's nothing to stop you from stockpiling a million shells by repeatedly trying the spell recovering from drain each time. You are stopped from stockpiling by money thru the normal way. And if you keep asking for it people start wondering why.
Besides...what would the extension Create Jackrabbit have for it's TN? 3? It does make for a great superpower... (It's Pinto Man! He causes Pintos to appear and explode on demand!) |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 7th September 2025 - 05:44 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.