As the thread title implies, this was inspired from the make clothing thread, along with a comment about a "permanent six-shooter" here.

OK, it's canon that Physical Manips can make relatively permanent items. There are spells that create Food and Water. The previous thread discussed options for making permanent clothing. How about taking that one step further?

How about making Bullets? Before jumping up and down and tossing animal droppings at me, hear me out. The basic FMJ bullet, after all, is basically a shaped lump of metal with gunpowder in a sealed case, right? So it's hardly a complicated machine or anything like that. So would it be possible to make a spell that would be darned useful for a team that was cut-off from its regular supply chain (ie, in hostile territory), but not be overtly unbalancing to the point where sammies start ignoring their armsdealers and regularly hit up the beleaguered mage for their weekly stash?

As an example, making the spells target number equal to the Avail of the bullets; that way, the more powerful shells are still just as hard to get as they should be. Have the spell make, what, 10 bullets, per success, up to the spell's Force.

Too outlandish?

I'd make the TN equal to OR and have extra successes count to making better bullets - something like a Power equal to the number of successes up to Force and the Drain equal to the damage level (both limited by weapon). One bullet at a time (or a success threshold equal to the number of bullets) and with a long sustaining period, it might be balanced.

Not that I'd actually allow it.

Wouldn't it just be easier to buy a box of ammo? Besides, if you're gun clicks empty and you have magical powers, why not just use them to heave a powerball or stunball?

I eliminated the create food and water spell and outlawed any spell that permanently created anything. The canon examples of those spells cause damn near anything to break down taken to their logical extensions, create ammo being a perfect example. Horribly horribly broken.

Yeah, talk to the GM before picking up a spell like that. If he's a whiner like BitBasher here, skip it and take Detect GM Whim instead. If the GM has no problem with it, start asking about Create Honda.

One suggestion we had for our games was that every subsequent casting of any "permanent spells" like Fashion, Create Water, and Create Food, would have a +2 target number modifier (cumulative), so people can't spam water or food spells for stockpiles or constantly reknit their clothes. This never actually came up, because everyone in our group thinks the spells are too cheesy to do something like that, but it does explain why NPCs aren't doing that.

EDIT: Oh, *smacks forehead* I meant a +2 modifier (cumulative) per 12 hour period of time (sunrise/sunset).

The way I'd have it is to allow the create bullets, but turn it into a transmutation spell, similar to Fashion, and less like Create Food/Water. I could see how Create Water would work, but create food baffles me. Fashion does not, so I'd apply similar principles. You can't just magic a bullet up from nowhere, you have to have the proper raw materials present and know what it is you're trying to create (a ballistics background knowledge skill would be enough, rolled appropriately for the desired bullet type), then you cast the spell on the materials, sustain until permanent, and voila! say, 10 bullets for every 2 successes, min 10 bullets. Tgt # would be the OR of the bullet. Downside: Each bullet would carry the magician's signature, as they were created via his magic.

Except that it tastes almost exactly like soy-loaf according to the spell description.

Wait a minute...a couple of people have suggested making Gun (B/R) (or similar skills like KN: Ballistics) a component of making this spell work. That doesn't make sense. A caster doesn't need KN: Fashion to cast the "Fashion" spell. A caster doesn't need an actifve skill Cooking to cast "Create Food". For that matter, a caster sure as heck doesn't need Molecular Biology, or SubAtomic Physics to cast "Transmutation".

And I object to the statement that one can't create bullets out of nothing, or that spells can't create simple items with a permanent duration; the canon spell "Create Food" directly contradicts them both.

Let me make it clear; I don't object to people's suggestions with regard to the balance (or lack of) for the idea, or why the canon rules would or wouldn't allow it. But several here are twisting, changing, or just flat out fiat declaring it impossible w/o explaining why the spell would be illegal in SR3/MITS canon spell creation rules.

ah, but the caster DOES need to know what he wants to make. Food created with Make Food tastes like soyloaf because the caster has no bloody idea how to put the created molocules together in the right way to make anything with taste to it (If he gets enough successes he succeeds in adding a few flavors). Fashion just rearranges and recolours fabric to the caster's tastes. The caster needs to know what the end product will be, and if you want to make a useable bullet, and not something that just LOOKS like a bullet, you're going to need to know and fix in your mind exactly how one is put together.

Also towards making something out of nothing, sure a spell can do that, it's just energy transferrence, like every other spell. I just wouldn't allow it in my game, that's all. I have my 'make bullets' spell work on the same principles as fashion instead of create food.

Don't worry Lina - you ain't getting the spell. So sayeth your GM.

Feel free to discuss away tho...

Frankly, Create Ammo would cause problems because if I allow that, then the variants logically become possible. And then I *know* you guys wouldn't be searching for APDS and AV ammo every game session...you'd create your own cottage industry.

That reminds me - If this spell would exist in SR Canon, I would think the Ammo buisness union would ruthlessly hunt down any mages who knew that spell.

hahnsoo: Why do you have such a problem with the Fashion spell? So what if the PCs can alter the appearance of their clothes? It still takes a relatively high Force spell to alter significant amounts of armoring.

The catch is that this isn't DnD, the casters astral signature vanishes after a number of hours.

The real abuse in this spell has nothing to do with selling, it has to do with players gaining supplies of whatever the heck they want while being able to totally ignore availability.,

It's an entire set of problems that's entered into when this becomes an option.

Incidentally I've never actually used the wealth power in my games, it's never come up.

Heh - I have in my game a Force 12 Free spirit that has wealth amongst his powers - he actually has become an independent Johnson that hunts down bug hives and uses the wealth power to fund hiring mercenaries to help him.

Eh, you'd still be making it for free. And there's nothing to stop you from stockpiling a million shells by repeatedly trying the spell recovering from drain each time. You are stopped from stockpiling by money thru the normal way. And if you keep asking for it people start wondering why.

Besides...what would the extension Create Jackrabbit have for it's TN? 3? It does make for a great superpower... (It's Pinto Man! He causes Pintos to appear and explode on demand!)

This might be related

If you want a mage to be able to create a weapon or such, but you don't want him to turn into a factory, you could do what we did with my soul sword spell.

My elf mage wanted to be able to create a sword magicly. well, there is all sorts of problems with this, but this is the deal me and the GM worked out (roughly, it was a couple of years ago).

I could make the sword, but I made it out of my own essence. two essence made a normal sword, for each two beyound it, it receaved a bonus like a weapon focus. (in fact, I could use it when and agianst astral foes) When I was done with it, I could re absorbe the essence and my essence score and majic score went back to normal. Now casting wonce I made the sword was not a good thing, and If something were to happen to the sword I would want it back (it was made of my essence after all).

Perhaps a generic version of the spell, essence weapon. in which you could create any weapon and hand it to others (I would think bullets would dissapear after hitting the target and the essence would return) Also one essence would get you a quantity of bullets

I actually rather like the original idea, and with proper application wouldn't be too unbalanced. I can't remember what page has the OR table on it, but I like the idea of linking TN to availibility (it's one of the better mechanics I can think of, since Avail numbers in the book tend to remain pretty constant for a particular item), with number of rounds produced = number of successes (I think that 10 per success would defintely be too much). That means the target number for say, AV ammo is 14. So if you're team is pinned down by an armored limo with a MMG mounted on a pop-up turret, and you need some AV rounds bad, the mage might be able to scrape up one in a pinch. (Sammie: "Just one!?!" Mage: "You'd better make that shot count!").

I'm not really sure how to go about doing drain though, because although TN14 for making the bullet sounds about right, but then having to resist 14(etc) for the drain seems a little much.

Making the TN based of availability, now would that be the availability on the object in question in the region that you are casting the spell?or where the spell was made?or where you learned the spell?

Lets say that its based of the availability of the area that you are currently in. That would mean that the intended example of being cut off from your supply routes and needing this object pretty damn useless. availability is all supply and demand certain regions have higher or lower availability for the same object.

Then if its where the spell was made/learned then players would set off to find whatever object they want to magically create is easiest to get, and just make the spell there.

I see no problem with this spell. Nor do I see a problem with Fashion or Nourish. If a player is abusing it... I do this wierd thing as a GM... I STOP THEM. Ya know... I do that kind of thing as GM.

The problem is easily solved by using the avail in SR3 (or whatever book the item was first issues in). This avoids all questions of what happens when you travel to Aztlan, or a manufacter floods the market. Drain code will be based on OR. So in my aforementioned scenario, where you really need a AV round, that'll be a casting TN of 14, with a drain code of 5M (I'm calling bullets manufactured low tech because making it a TN 8 seems way too rough). A regular bullet will still be TN 2, Drain 5M which would make the spell useful, but especially for the hard to acquire bullets, it's not going to turn the mage into an ammo factory (if you can make one bullet per success).

I'm still wondering how regarding the internal consistency of game logic, IC, how you justify basing the TN based on the availability.

Create spells are inconsistant. If you can make something complex like food, then you can make something simple like gold, or orchalium. Badness ensues.

JaronK

I wouldn't call orichalcum simple.

It's made of four elements, with some magic to bond them together. Compare that to the sheer number of complex molecules in your average bit of food.

JaronK

Isn't it still normally described as a "metallurgist's nightmare" most of the time? I always thought there was a vague sort of should not be about it.

The "should not" is that it's inhearently magical. As a result, while I imagine it's very complex to try to create with chemistry, it's not so bad with magic.

But even if you debate the Orchalium, Gold is still far more simple than bread.

JaronK

Well, yeah. Gold, silver, platinum. In a way, you could argue any of the "noble" elements would be fairly easy to create (and those are generally the expensive ones, anyhow).

Why not apply a "sunset clause" to such spells, causing their product to fade into nonexistence after the next sunrise or sunset?

I know there's nothing in that that's necessarily in keeping with SR canon spell-creation mechanics...but it does fit with mythical ideas about food and magic, and fool's gold...(at least in terms of Celtic myth)

EG: In some Irish and British fairy stories magicians and similar "fey" things can conjure food from nothing...but it's not necessarily all that nourishing...and they can produce gold from the air, but it turns to dross or leaves when the sun next rises.

(BTW for an idea of the kind of fairy stories I'm talking about, have a look at the novel "Jonathan Strange & Mr Norell". These are not your Victorian pixies...)

Or "manna" from Heaven, in Biblical accounts or the Israelites wandering the desert. The only day that it can be stored for more than one day is the day before the Sabbath, which may have been a retcon, for all I know.

Indeed. (strokes chin knowingly.)
The only problem with having magically created stuff disappear is of course the magic bullet.

There it is folks. We know how the IEs managed to kill Kennedy.