SR4 Firearms Options

[Arethusa]

Suffice it to say that most of the old timers around here know I think a lot of SR3 was crap(py), but primarily, that I saw combat and weaponry as the most easily fixed (and, to some degree, most necessary to fix). For a while, I actively pursued a revised ruleset, though due to real life and community lack of interest, I eventually left it on indefinite (and likely now permanent) hiatus. I also worked on new rules for dying and staying conscious that (hopefully) made a hell of a lot more sense, and a set of canon compatible new guns that never saw much of a response. Raygun obviously has his set of well known rules, though those mostly stay within SR3 as much as possible. Austere never got around to putting up a website (because he is a very bad person), but he uses three part damage codes (probably the first thing that occurred to me as missing and necessary when I started getting into SR3 a bit over a year and a half ago) and has really quite detailed rules.

So, really, primer over with, I'm wondering where the Dumpshock is on the issue of more realistic weapons rules now that SR4 is on the horizon. Personally, beyond wanting the rules to finally be sensible and internally consistent, I'd really appreciate rules consistent with real life. Even Spycraft, which deviates heavily from reality in its rules in order to create a specific effect (ie it's a game about James Bond and Cate Archer, not a realistic combat and espionage sim), has managed a very admirable amount of realism in its handling of combat and weapons. I would very much like SR to finally take note of this and stop beating everyone senseless with the Abstraction Stick. Of course, then there's melee, which is simultaneously worse off and harder to fix for a number of reasons.

And, since I've heard that developers will likely read this, get your opinions out.

And hire some of us as consultants! Self interest rocks! And I hear that Raygun guy is ok, too. Austere's kind of a jerk, though.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Frankly, I agree that it might be a very good idea to not hire but to simply ask some of the people with extended knowledge of things related to SR to help with those areas of the game, or perhaps even consult them in some cases. Outside of the gun nuts, people who could at least stop serious mistakes from happening include, for example, Cray74.

It's a good thing that the game designers still have a final word on all those matters, since no matter how well all our house rules suit our own games, I doubt the majority of people would be too thrilled about your or my house rule sets or even Raygun's rules being part of canon. Especially now if SR4 is indeed more streamlined.

Judging from the amount of very negative comments I received for just including one more variable into the Damage Code you'd think most SR players are really in love with the way damage works in SR -- although some of the comments about reintroducing the variable staging in SR4 I find rather ironic.

[Critias]

For the most part, I'm fine (in a "this is a really simple, fun, combat system") with Shadowrun's weapons and damage codes and combat rules. Really. I play "combat" sort of characters pretty much exclusively; sammies, adepts, mages who try to act like both. I like physical combat in an RPG, and I like the SR rules.

But please, please, make "light pistols" 6M instead of 6L. Make it less mandatory that any given pistol is a "heavy pistol," please. The gap between a 6L and a 9M damage is ridiculously huge, both in terms of realism and game worth. I'm not going to try and argue that light pistols are worthless -- I understand that they aren't, quite -- but they are very very close to worthless, when compared to a heavy pistol, for most situations. They are ridiculously non-lethal. Absurdly so. Someone with an armor jacket and an average Body score has little to fear unless the guy plugging him is truly skilled. That's ridiculous.

Please.

Just...bump that up. Or bump heavy pistols down. Or...something. Keep the Light damage code for holdouts (most of them), where it's reasonable and where the weapon is very clearly meant to not be anyone in the world's primary means of harming the opposition. Light pistols in Shadowrun are supposed to be the default, the median, the average. Heavy pistols are, in fluff, meant to be rare, intimidating, over the top killing machines.

Remedy this. Make light pistols worth taking. Keep heavy pistols horrifying engines of destruction (compared to more reasonable handguns), but make light pistols dangerous.

Also -- I'd love it if they just bumped assault rifle's base damage up to 9M, or lowered heavy pistols to 8M, or something. A single shot from most handguns compared to a single shot from most assault rifles should, well, end up with the rifle on top. It'd be cool to just nudge one of those two power codes one way or the other. Mostly, though, I just want a reason to carry a light pistol.

[Raygun]

Well, I hate to say it guys, but I think any requests we make at this point are pretty much going to land in a big fat pile of too late. I'm pretty sure they're set on what's going where and doing what within the 4th Edition system. At this point we can only hope that some of the writers have listened to us bitch and moan (I know at least a few with some influence couldn't possibly have avoided it!) about what we don't like and have taken some steps to do something about the more rediculous things, while at the same time keeping it all as simple as possible.

I'm well aware that my own rules are a bit too intense for most players, and honestly, I wouldn't want the majority of the things I've done showing up in canon, if for no other reason that it would likely turn a lot of potential players off (what's with all this gun crap?). But there are a few very simple things, particularly those that Critias mentioned, that there's really no reason not to bring more in line with how things are out here in the real world.

Anyway, if they've taken any of my advice over the years and plan to put it into effect now, it'll be as much of a suprise to me as it is to you guys.

[Smed]

They are likely to be very far along in the process for the new edition. I'm guessing that they have been playtesting for a while, and are editing the books.

[Catsnightmare]

Either way, I'm just hoping heavy pistols get bumped down a notch. They need it in my oppinion. The whole more powerful than assualt rifles thing is just crazy.

[Smed]

[mmu1]

One thing I'm hoping for is a revision of the way firearm skills are done - some sort of happy medium between having a lot of skills so that everyone doesn't know how to shoot most of the guns out there, and avoiding absurdities like Rifle and Assault Rifle being entirely separate skills.

I'd also like to see something done about the nearly binary nature of SR ranged combat - it seems like 90% of the time you're either armored well enough that the enemies might as well be spitting at you, or getting hit with something that forces soak TNs of 6 or more, and you're completely hosed. It might actually be a case of accidental realism, but there's little reason for that in a cinematic system where an unarmored unaugmented human can actually soak a gunshot wound down to nothing if he's tough and lucky enough.

[Zen Shooter01]

There are reasons for these weirdnesses. Whether you agree with them or not, that's another thing.

Heavy pistols have such a steroidal damage code in order to make them worthwhile and faintly realistic. If I shoot a man wearing a bullet-proof vest in the chest with my .45, the vest will save his life, but I'll still ruin his whole day. If you reduce HP damage to 7M or so, handguns will become almost pointless against body armor. But handguns are the most common weapons in the shadows for reasons of portability, affordability, and concealability. So if you reduce the damage code for heavy pistols, a lot of gunfights will be determined solely by who's got a shotgun installed in their cyberarm...or who's got a sorcerer on their team.

SMGs and rifles are so wimpy on single shot to keep them from being overpowering on burst and automatic. Yes, if a .45 does 9M, then a 5.56 mm rifle should probably do 8S, But then a burst would do 11D, and a lot of PCs would die awfully young.

And keep in mind that the relative effect of firearms has a lot to do with who you're shooting at. Don't forget that, allegedly, the average human has Body 3, Combat Pool 4. But how often are you shooting at him? Usually it's some ork street samurai with body 9, Combat Pool 9, Armor 7/5.

[Grinder]

Realism and rpg rules mostly aren't compatible. So your explanation makes sense and sounds very good to me. :)

[MYST1C]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[MYST1C]

[GrinderTheTroll]

I'm going to venture a guess that in the interesting of "streamlining" the rules, they opted for similar rules that are in SR3. You can't make things easier by bringing into account the bajillion variables of real combat. Realism breeds complexity. The very nature of keeping it simple will overwash the realism some people so desperately can't live without in this RPG.

[Kagetenshi]

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Critias]

[Pthgar]

I somewhat agree with Critias. The determinig factor for damage should be caliber and shot placement (skill). RoF should factor in there somewhere as should armor, of course. If they can make all of this streamlined, I will be very happy.
My fear is that they can't and I'll be forced to create house rules (or just wait for Raygun to come up with something.)

[Kagetenshi]

[mfb]

which is so stupid it makes me blind. the only thing more stupid is the "any weapon can be purchased in cased or caseless versions" insanity. replacing the damage code column with a calibre column would solve both problems.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[apple]

I always propose:

[with a caliber example]
light pistol / light submachine gun: 7M (9mm Para)
heavy pistol / heavy submachine gun: 8M (.40er S&W)
light rifle / assault rifle / hunting rifle / sniper rifle / LMG: 10M (5,56mm Nato)
medium rifle / assault rifle / hunting rifle / sniper rifle / MMG(GPMG/UMG): 11S (7,62mm Nato)
Heavy Rifle / MG: 16T [(.50er BMG)

[Critias]

[Kagetenshi]

Simple: all weapons with the same ammo and different damage codes have different barrel lengths :grinbig:

No, it doesn't make sense, but it's at least physically possible now.

~J

[moosegod]

Critias, I'm pretty sure SR3 says that the ammo only works for one weapon(Ruger Superwarhawk, Ares Predator). No books ATM, sorry.