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[craigpierce]

i don't often post, but i just wanted to start this as it's own beast (it's been touched on in other threads, but only as a tangent). it's actually 2 things:

1) i hope, for this time around, that they can cut the number of books down. i can remember when i first started playing SR and all you really needed was the core rule book. it was only if you enjoyed the game and just wanted to flesh it out a little more that you would pick up the supplements.

2) i really hope that they streamline. i'm all for organization and efficiency, but not change. i happen to think that you can keep something as in-depth and interesting as SR the way that it is and still make it efficient and easy to follow. i would hate for them to change things up in the name of streamlining, when really what they are doing is dumbing SR down for a broader market.

in summarization, they would make SR accessible to more people not by dumbing it down, but by really combining and compiling all the necessary rules into the core book and making the supplements supplemental again. that way, 13-year-olds can go to the store and pick up 1 book and they will be well on their way to running the shadows and wanting more.

[Pistons]

That's the general idea.

[mfb]

one of the ways this can be accomplished, i think, is to lay down basic principles, and then derive specific rules from those principles. in SR3, it seems that the rules came first, and the principles were half-assedly tacked on afterwards.

for instance, let's take everybody's second-favorite flamefest: invisibility. decide, right from the get-go, whether or not magic can affect LOS for the purposes of casting. if it can? then turning walls invisible and casting through them is a viable tactic. if it can't? then turning walls invisible has no effect on LOS--and neither does any other illusion or detection spell.

[GrinderTheTroll]

I'm sure one of the goals on FanPro's list is to make money. Unless they start producing new things for us to buy they can't make money then SR dies or gets sold to WOtC and we all go buy 20-sided dice.

[craigpierce]

[Eyeless Blond]

I wouldn't call the newer D&D sourcebooks quality, or anything like it. The newer sourcebooks exist solely to power-creep everything, such that the person with the most and the newest sourcebooks to draw on will inevitably build the most powerful character. Look at the Dervish, for example, as opposed to the SRD's Duelist; similar concepts, but vast power difference.

To an extent this exists in Shadowrun; much of the 'ware in M&M is much more powerful than coresponding 'ware in the SR3 main book, for example. After the first few "core" expansions, though, most of the books deal with advancing the timeline and adding flavor, which s by far more interesting and more balanced.

In terms of streamlining, I'd like to see all the tests in SR organized around a single mechanic, or at most two, rather than four: Success Tests, Opposed Tests, Open Tests, and, um, Other (for stuff like Initiative, etc, all of which are specific exceptions and work in different and odd ways).

[Kanada Ten]

Initiative as a success test... I like that.

[Slash_Thompson]

The old West End Games Prime Directive (star trek rpg) used a success test formula for initiative...

it was ... complex.

the game used a target numbered form of open test. (only the highest die counted) of a multiple d6 system.

similar idea for initiative, except 1: every die was counted as a 'number' from 0-3 (based on 'level of success') and summed to determine turn order. and 2: the highest single die, (as normal tests) determined how much action you could take. ranging from the equivalent of a Shadowrun free action, up to the equivalent of basically a complex action + a full move.

it was one of the things I disliked about the system, because I felt it was too complex for something you had to do at the start of EVERY turn.

[craigpierce]

[brightlight]

I doubt they'll set out to alienate the current large fanbase.

Initiative is excellent the way it is - its quick and easy to determine exactly when you go and how many goes you get; but i'm not a fan of the initiative pass system of SR3. I think someone with wired 3 should be able to crack off 1/2dozen shots before average joe can squeeze off one.

I totally agree that first prinicples need to be lay down first, and agree that many SR3 rules do seem to be rules first then try to patchwork a principle that supports it.

They desperately need to bring decking and rigging into the same mechanics as combat, they've done a bloody good job of getting magic easier to use (even metamagic), but deckers and riggers are still fun-killers to most groups.

<addendum> I agree with archimagus, opposed, success and open tests have their place, but they've added too many variables into some tests, particularly decking and rigging. The vehicle maneuver thing is a nightmare!

[Eyeless Blond]

[Sandoval Smith]

[mmu1]

[craigpierce]

[Eyeless Blond]

Honestly it shouldn't be either. Ideally the order would be staggered, so the fast guy usually goes an equal numbe of times before and after the slow guys' single turns. This is one advantage my proposed system has, actually.

[craigpierce]

[craigpierce]

[Mortax]

[Jrayjoker]

[brightlight]

Back to the initiative issue, and slow runners getting cacked. It's true that smart mages etc have sustaining foci bound spells to make them go faster, but when playing a starting mage (or similar slow body) it's important to know when to keep your head down, and to pick your fights.

That's what I love about Shadowrun, you can be dead in an instant - even a character with 500+ karma in his belt can die with a sniper shot to the head, I think SR3 tried to dull that ultra violence a little.

Part of roleplaying in SR is knowing how to work as a team and knowing your disadvantages. Delaying, defensive spells, cover - its all designed to keep you alive. SR2 made you play smart, but SR3 with its initiative pass and 120 building points makes everyone too tough off the bat.

If Shadowrun ever goes D20, I'll just keep playing the older editions. The lack of classes and alignments - ambiguous morality - is one of the most appealing things about SR. I despise D20 for its classes, alignments and of course, variable damage :)

[Arethusa]

D20 doesn't deal with alignments. You're confusing D20 with DnD.

[brightlight]

Whatever, the classes and variable damage still apply. DnD was enough to scare me off other D20 games.

[Arethusa]

Which is unfortunately pretty damn narrow minded.

I'm sure glad Shadowrun only has soft classes and, uh, also variable damage.

[Kanada Ten]

That's too bad; a lot of d20 is fine material with enjoyable settings. Class and hitpoints aren't as bad as all that for a one off game of Wheel of Time or BESM. That's the real advantage of d20; you don't have to invest in a game system like Shadowrun, but rather you can play any game any time any where. There are drawbacks of course.

[brightlight]

Thats valid, consider my mind officially broadened. The real truth is that I don't have time to play multiple systems, so I concentrate on the one I enjoy most. Back in uni days I played both, but invariably DnD (version 3.0 then) characters were all about numbers, but I found it much easier to have actual 'characters' in SR.

I still fail to see where SR has variable damage though Arethusa.