i don't often post, but i just wanted to start this as it's own beast (it's been touched on in other threads, but only as a tangent). it's actually 2 things:
1) i hope, for this time around, that they can cut the number of books down. i can remember when i first started playing SR and all you really needed was the core rule book. it was only if you enjoyed the game and just wanted to flesh it out a little more that you would pick up the supplements.
2) i really hope that they streamline. i'm all for organization and efficiency, but not change. i happen to think that you can keep something as in-depth and interesting as SR the way that it is and still make it efficient and easy to follow. i would hate for them to change things up in the name of streamlining, when really what they are doing is dumbing SR down for a broader market.
in summarization, they would make SR accessible to more people not by dumbing it down, but by really combining and compiling all the necessary rules into the core book and making the supplements supplemental again. that way, 13-year-olds can go to the store and pick up 1 book and they will be well on their way to running the shadows and wanting more.
Full Version: Real Streamlining?
That's the general idea.
one of the ways this can be accomplished, i think, is to lay down basic principles, and then derive specific rules from those principles. in SR3, it seems that the rules came first, and the principles were half-assedly tacked on afterwards.
for instance, let's take everybody's second-favorite flamefest: invisibility. decide, right from the get-go, whether or not magic can affect LOS for the purposes of casting. if it can? then turning walls invisible and casting through them is a viable tactic. if it can't? then turning walls invisible has no effect on LOS--and neither does any other illusion or detection spell.
for instance, let's take everybody's second-favorite flamefest: invisibility. decide, right from the get-go, whether or not magic can affect LOS for the purposes of casting. if it can? then turning walls invisible and casting through them is a viable tactic. if it can't? then turning walls invisible has no effect on LOS--and neither does any other illusion or detection spell.
I'm sure one of the goals on FanPro's list is to make money. Unless they start producing new things for us to buy they can't make money then SR dies or gets sold to WOtC and we all go buy 20-sided dice.
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) |
| I'm sure one of the goals on FanPro's list is to make money. Unless they start producing new things for us to buy they can't make money then SR dies or gets sold to WOtC and we all go buy 20-sided dice. |
i'm all for them making money - but not selling their souls. i just want them to earn their money by developing and selling a good product.
look at D&D - they sell tons of books. just an example of quantity and quality.
I wouldn't call the newer D&D sourcebooks quality, or anything like it. The newer sourcebooks exist solely to power-creep everything, such that the person with the most and the newest sourcebooks to draw on will inevitably build the most powerful character. Look at the Dervish, for example, as opposed to the SRD's Duelist; similar concepts, but vast power difference.
To an extent this exists in Shadowrun; much of the 'ware in M&M is much more powerful than coresponding 'ware in the SR3 main book, for example. After the first few "core" expansions, though, most of the books deal with advancing the timeline and adding flavor, which s by far more interesting and more balanced.
In terms of streamlining, I'd like to see all the tests in SR organized around a single mechanic, or at most two, rather than four: Success Tests, Opposed Tests, Open Tests, and, um, Other (for stuff like Initiative, etc, all of which are specific exceptions and work in different and odd ways).
To an extent this exists in Shadowrun; much of the 'ware in M&M is much more powerful than coresponding 'ware in the SR3 main book, for example. After the first few "core" expansions, though, most of the books deal with advancing the timeline and adding flavor, which s by far more interesting and more balanced.
In terms of streamlining, I'd like to see all the tests in SR organized around a single mechanic, or at most two, rather than four: Success Tests, Opposed Tests, Open Tests, and, um, Other (for stuff like Initiative, etc, all of which are specific exceptions and work in different and odd ways).
Initiative as a success test... I like that.
The old West End Games Prime Directive (star trek rpg) used a success test formula for initiative...
it was ... complex.
the game used a target numbered form of open test. (only the highest die counted) of a multiple d6 system.
similar idea for initiative, except 1: every die was counted as a 'number' from 0-3 (based on 'level of success') and summed to determine turn order. and 2: the highest single die, (as normal tests) determined how much action you could take. ranging from the equivalent of a Shadowrun free action, up to the equivalent of basically a complex action + a full move.
it was one of the things I disliked about the system, because I felt it was too complex for something you had to do at the start of EVERY turn.
it was ... complex.
the game used a target numbered form of open test. (only the highest die counted) of a multiple d6 system.
similar idea for initiative, except 1: every die was counted as a 'number' from 0-3 (based on 'level of success') and summed to determine turn order. and 2: the highest single die, (as normal tests) determined how much action you could take. ranging from the equivalent of a Shadowrun free action, up to the equivalent of basically a complex action + a full move.
it was one of the things I disliked about the system, because I felt it was too complex for something you had to do at the start of EVERY turn.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| I wouldn't call the newer D&D sourcebooks quality, or anything like it. The newer sourcebooks exist solely to power-creep everything, such that the person with the most and the newest sourcebooks to draw on will inevitably build the most powerful character. Look at the Dervish, for example, as opposed to the SRD's Duelist; similar concepts, but vast power difference. To an extent this exists in Shadowrun; much of the 'ware in M&M is much more powerful than coresponding 'ware in the SR3 main book, for example. After the first few "core" expansions, though, most of the books deal with advancing the timeline and adding flavor, which s by far more interesting and more balanced. In terms of streamlining, I'd like to see all the tests in SR organized around a single mechanic, or at most two, rather than four: Success Tests, Opposed Tests, Open Tests, and, um, Other (for stuff like Initiative, etc, all of which are specific exceptions and work in different and odd ways). |
it seems to me that your statement about 'he who has the most books can have the most powerful character' would hold true for any game system. the way i feel is that a least with D&D you have all the rules you could ever need in the 2 core books. the only reasons for buying sourcebooks are: 1) for a setting you would like to play and 2) to round out your character more and make him more versitile/powerful. there are no 'core expansions' that you have to get in order for the rules system to be complete.
and i happen to like SRs dice mechanics...open tests and all. i would agree that perhaps they could take the 'other' category and make all those tests alike - but i wouldn't mind if they didn't.
I doubt they'll set out to alienate the current large fanbase.
Initiative is excellent the way it is - its quick and easy to determine exactly when you go and how many goes you get; but i'm not a fan of the initiative pass system of SR3. I think someone with wired 3 should be able to crack off 1/2dozen shots before average joe can squeeze off one.
I totally agree that first prinicples need to be lay down first, and agree that many SR3 rules do seem to be rules first then try to patchwork a principle that supports it.
They desperately need to bring decking and rigging into the same mechanics as combat, they've done a bloody good job of getting magic easier to use (even metamagic), but deckers and riggers are still fun-killers to most groups.
<addendum> I agree with archimagus, opposed, success and open tests have their place, but they've added too many variables into some tests, particularly decking and rigging. The vehicle maneuver thing is a nightmare!
Initiative is excellent the way it is - its quick and easy to determine exactly when you go and how many goes you get; but i'm not a fan of the initiative pass system of SR3. I think someone with wired 3 should be able to crack off 1/2dozen shots before average joe can squeeze off one.
I totally agree that first prinicples need to be lay down first, and agree that many SR3 rules do seem to be rules first then try to patchwork a principle that supports it.
They desperately need to bring decking and rigging into the same mechanics as combat, they've done a bloody good job of getting magic easier to use (even metamagic), but deckers and riggers are still fun-killers to most groups.
<addendum> I agree with archimagus, opposed, success and open tests have their place, but they've added too many variables into some tests, particularly decking and rigging. The vehicle maneuver thing is a nightmare!
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Initiative as a success test... I like that. |
| QUOTE (archimagus) |
| it seems to me that your statement about 'he who has the most books can have the most powerful character' would hold true for any game system. the way i feel is that a least with D&D you have all the rules you could ever need in the 2 core books. the only reasons for buying sourcebooks are: 1) for a setting you would like to play and 2) to round out your character more and make him more versitile/powerful. there are no 'core expansions' that you have to get in order for the rules system to be complete. |
The real problem here is that in D&D, many of the PrCs and some of the equipment is trivially more powerful than any of the stuff that came before, to the tune that the only reason you need the core books these days is for the experience table. Even the new base classes (artificer, for example) are so much more powerful than the core base classes it's not even funny.
To some extent that's true in SR (initiation, social adepts in SOTA 64, etc), but it's at least much less so than in D&D and other systems.
To some extent that's true in SR (initiation, social adepts in SOTA 64, etc), but it's at least much less so than in D&D and other systems.
| QUOTE (archimagus) |
| and i happen to like SRs dice mechanics...open tests and all. i would agree that perhaps they could take the 'other' category and make all those tests alike - but i wouldn't mind if they didn't. |
So do I, kinda. Except Open Tests; they just have to die. 
Honestly I could do without a Success Test version of initiative, or Magic Loss (which would be good as an Essence or Willpower Test against a TN equal to 1.5 times current Magic Attribute), but it would greatly simplify the rules for new players to have dice be rolled open-ended *all* the time, and have the Rule of Ones apply *all* the time.
Honestly I could do without a Success Test version of initiative, or Magic Loss (which would be good as an Essence or Willpower Test against a TN equal to 1.5 times current Magic Attribute), but it would greatly simplify the rules for new players to have dice be rolled open-ended *all* the time, and have the Rule of Ones apply *all* the time.
| QUOTE (brightlight) |
| Initiative is excellent the way it is - its quick and easy to determine exactly when you go and how many goes you get; but i'm not a fan of the initiative pass system of SR3. I think someone with wired 3 should be able to crack off 1/2dozen shots before average joe can squeeze off one. |
That's how it used to be, and it created something of a balance problem (that's why all the smart mages had incresaed reflexes and spell locks). 'Realistically' the character with the super enhanced reflexes should be filling the air with lead before anyone else can do more than twitch, but in balance terms, that means you need to provide opposition that can move as fast, or be strong enough to not all go down in the first round, and that might put them above the range of the rest of the team.
| QUOTE (Sandoval Smith @ Mar 18 2005, 10:06 AM) |
| That's how it used to be, and it created something of a balance problem (that's why all the smart mages had incresaed reflexes and spell locks). 'Realistically' the character with the super enhanced reflexes should be filling the air with lead before anyone else can do more than twitch, but in balance terms, that means you need to provide opposition that can move as fast, or be strong enough to not all go down in the first round, and that might put them above the range of the rest of the team. |
The same thing could be said about having any sort of highly competent specialist on your team, like a (well designed, not some silly SR3 archetype) rigger or a mage. It means that you have to take that into account and might have to counter it with enemies that other team members might be unable to deal with.
Of course, if you neutered those archetypes to make them more manageable for everyone else, you'd be leeching the flavor out of the system... Just as you do when you let someone with an initiative of 4 go before the street sam with a 23 gets to go a second time, but that's staus quo by now, so people by and large don't mind.
| QUOTE (brightlight) |
| ...but i'm not a fan of the initiative pass system of SR3. I think someone with wired 3 should be able to crack off 1/2dozen shots before average joe can squeeze off one... |
i absolutely agree with that - i liked SR2's initative system and i'd like to see it come back.
Honestly it shouldn't be either. Ideally the order would be staggered, so the fast guy usually goes an equal numbe of times before and after the slow guys' single turns. This is one advantage my proposed system has, actually.
| QUOTE (mmu1) |
| ...Of course, if you neutered those archetypes to make them more manageable for everyone else, you'd be leeching the flavor out of the system... Just as you do when you let someone with an initiative of 4 go before the street sam with a 23 gets to go a second time... |
here here!
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Honestly it shouldn't be either. Ideally the order would be staggered, so the fast guy usually goes an equal numbe of times before and after the slow guys' single turns. This is one advantage my proposed system has, actually. |
i took a peek at your system and i like the look of it...i'd want to play test it, of course, but thumbs up on that one at least in theory.
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) |
| I'm sure one of the goals on FanPro's list is to make money. Unless they start producing new things for us to buy they can't make money then SR dies or gets sold to WOtC and we all go buy 20-sided dice. |
I will die first.
| QUOTE (Mortax) | ||
I will die first. |
Really, its not that bad.
I have room in my heart for all gaming systems. I just play favorites, and you can too.
Back to the initiative issue, and slow runners getting cacked. It's true that smart mages etc have sustaining foci bound spells to make them go faster, but when playing a starting mage (or similar slow body) it's important to know when to keep your head down, and to pick your fights.
That's what I love about Shadowrun, you can be dead in an instant - even a character with 500+ karma in his belt can die with a sniper shot to the head, I think SR3 tried to dull that ultra violence a little.
Part of roleplaying in SR is knowing how to work as a team and knowing your disadvantages. Delaying, defensive spells, cover - its all designed to keep you alive. SR2 made you play smart, but SR3 with its initiative pass and 120 building points makes everyone too tough off the bat.
If Shadowrun ever goes D20, I'll just keep playing the older editions. The lack of classes and alignments - ambiguous morality - is one of the most appealing things about SR. I despise D20 for its classes, alignments and of course, variable damage
That's what I love about Shadowrun, you can be dead in an instant - even a character with 500+ karma in his belt can die with a sniper shot to the head, I think SR3 tried to dull that ultra violence a little.
Part of roleplaying in SR is knowing how to work as a team and knowing your disadvantages. Delaying, defensive spells, cover - its all designed to keep you alive. SR2 made you play smart, but SR3 with its initiative pass and 120 building points makes everyone too tough off the bat.
If Shadowrun ever goes D20, I'll just keep playing the older editions. The lack of classes and alignments - ambiguous morality - is one of the most appealing things about SR. I despise D20 for its classes, alignments and of course, variable damage
D20 doesn't deal with alignments. You're confusing D20 with DnD.
Whatever, the classes and variable damage still apply. DnD was enough to scare me off other D20 games.
Which is unfortunately pretty damn narrow minded.
I'm sure glad Shadowrun only has soft classes and, uh, also variable damage.
I'm sure glad Shadowrun only has soft classes and, uh, also variable damage.
That's too bad; a lot of d20 is fine material with enjoyable settings. Class and hitpoints aren't as bad as all that for a one off game of Wheel of Time or BESM. That's the real advantage of d20; you don't have to invest in a game system like Shadowrun, but rather you can play any game any time any where. There are drawbacks of course.
Thats valid, consider my mind officially broadened. The real truth is that I don't have time to play multiple systems, so I concentrate on the one I enjoy most. Back in uni days I played both, but invariably DnD (version 3.0 then) characters were all about numbers, but I found it much easier to have actual 'characters' in SR.
I still fail to see where SR has variable damage though Arethusa.
I still fail to see where SR has variable damage though Arethusa.
Characters are all about number sin DnD; don't confuse DnD, however, with D20. DnD is a game. It is, in fact, the game of the D20 system. But D20 is a broad, relatively simple system architecture that can be used byt many other games. Spycraft, probably the D20 game I respect the most, comes to mind. It is not simply DnD with guns. If you have the time, stop by a Borders and poke around the book and you'll see that D20 can be pretty variable. As Kanada said, it has its strong points and its drawbacks, but it shouldn't be categorically written off. Even DnD can have its moments, after all.
And SR has variable damage with staging. D20 (or at least most D20 games) do variable damage by weapon, but both are technically variable damage.
And SR has variable damage with staging. D20 (or at least most D20 games) do variable damage by weapon, but both are technically variable damage.
Cool, can you recommend a decent D20 game to play around with? I've always been drawn to the cover of the iron kingdoms one (with the warjack type thing).
True, SR is variable in that sense, but I was always peeved with the fact that you could score a crit in DnD, then roll 1 on the damage roll. At least in SR if you've got a good skill, you're likely to get a lot of successes. Then only someone with a good body is likely shrug it off. Don't get me wrong though, all dice bases RPG's are based on chance and statistics.
Do all D20 games use the HP idea?
True, SR is variable in that sense, but I was always peeved with the fact that you could score a crit in DnD, then roll 1 on the damage roll. At least in SR if you've got a good skill, you're likely to get a lot of successes. Then only someone with a good body is likely shrug it off. Don't get me wrong though, all dice bases RPG's are based on chance and statistics.
Do all D20 games use the HP idea?
I don't know of any D20 games that don't use hit points, but it's not impossible.
I do know a lot of games stay away from hit points as implemented in DnD and instead differentiate between, say vitality points and wound points. The former are a constant and may go up very, very slowly (+1 per several levels, etc), and if you lose them, you die, as they represent real bodily harm, while wound points are an amalgam of combat fatigue, minor wounds, glancing blows, etc. It's not strictly realistic, but it isn't meant to be. It is, however, a major improvement, in most cases, over standard DnD hit points.
If I had to pick a system to recommend, I'd recommend Spycraft. It's a modern espionage game in the style of Cate Archer, James Bond, etc, and it's very well designed for what it is. It's not perfect, but makes very good use of D20's strengths. Also check out the Modern Arms Guide, which I've mentioned many times in other threads here. It's pretty cool stuff.
Also, I'm not disagreeing that SR and DnD do damage very differently; just that, technically, they both do vary damage dealt. I can definitely understand if you don't like the way DnD does it.
I do know a lot of games stay away from hit points as implemented in DnD and instead differentiate between, say vitality points and wound points. The former are a constant and may go up very, very slowly (+1 per several levels, etc), and if you lose them, you die, as they represent real bodily harm, while wound points are an amalgam of combat fatigue, minor wounds, glancing blows, etc. It's not strictly realistic, but it isn't meant to be. It is, however, a major improvement, in most cases, over standard DnD hit points.
If I had to pick a system to recommend, I'd recommend Spycraft. It's a modern espionage game in the style of Cate Archer, James Bond, etc, and it's very well designed for what it is. It's not perfect, but makes very good use of D20's strengths. Also check out the Modern Arms Guide, which I've mentioned many times in other threads here. It's pretty cool stuff.
Also, I'm not disagreeing that SR and DnD do damage very differently; just that, technically, they both do vary damage dealt. I can definitely understand if you don't like the way DnD does it.
You might consider Blue Rose, then. Yes, the setting is "romantic fantasy," but you can use the rules in whatever setting you want.
The game is a variant of d20 that uses one 20-sided die for all resolution, and gets rid of HP in favor of "damage saves." It's a very interesting system, and I can't wait to try it out myself.
You can order it as a PDF through the link above, or the book directly from the website or your FLGS.
The game is a variant of d20 that uses one 20-sided die for all resolution, and gets rid of HP in favor of "damage saves." It's a very interesting system, and I can't wait to try it out myself.
You can order it as a PDF through the link above, or the book directly from the website or your FLGS.
Star Wars D20 has a Vitality/Wound system that I hear is really good, but have never seen it for myself.
| QUOTE (brightlight) |
| Do all D20 games use the HP idea? |
Mutants and masterminds. You make a 'damage resistance' roll, if you fail it you get -1 to further damage resistance, feil it by too much, you pass out, fail it by a LOT, you die. It's only vaguely d20 at this point, but you can see where the rules came from.
Quite simililar to the shadowrun mechanic, actually. I recomend the game.
| QUOTE (Club @ Mar 19 2005, 12:43 PM) |
| It's only vaguely d20 at this point, but you can see where the rules came from. |
Vaguely D20? One could argue that M&M is the ultimate D20 system. All you need is a D20 and an understanding of the D20 + modifier VS DC mechanic. Classes and HP are not the core of the D20 system and by getting rid of it, M&M is the most streamlined D20 game (and any D20 game is more streamlined than SR so...)
| QUOTE (Club @ Mar 19 2005, 05:43 PM) | ||
Mutants and masterminds. You make a 'damage resistance' roll, if you fail it you get -1 to further damage resistance, feil it by too much, you pass out, fail it by a LOT, you die. It's only vaguely d20 at this point, but you can see where the rules came from. Quite simililar to the shadowrun mechanic, actually. I recomend the game. |
I second that. M&M is the best use of the d20 system for non-fantasy I've seen.
Star Wards d20 is scum floating on the surface of the roleplaying world, in my not so humble opinion. I've played it several times, and now I've gone back to WEG. D20 SW is just not heroic. Maybe at high levels it might be, but having played in the 1-9 range, totally unimpressed. (Rule of thumb - when the canon NPCs have to have the rules bent or broken to be statted, then there's something wrong). And I have a hard time working a class-based system into my mental picture of Star Wars. Luke Skywalker - Fringer 2, jedi Guardian 7 by the end of RotJ. Let's just ignore the fact that he spent 3 years as a soldier and fighter pilot for the Rebellion and 6 months working his Jedi skills, shall we? And don't even get me started on the lack of Feat picks available compared to the number of Feats to choose from.
Spycraft/D20 Modern... Played them, not overly impressed, but I suppose there are worse modern systems out there. But I'm more likely to just use the core Shadowrun rules instead, or maybe Blue Planet. Lack of feat picks again makes itself felt very uncomfortably, especially once you add in a couple of sourcebooks and realise just how much you will never be able to do. And again, I question the use of a hard class system in a modern setting.
For fantasy, though, I'll grit my teeth and admit that d20 works fine. The worldbooks are often well written and interesting. Iron Kingdoms, whoever that was who asked, is a really nice game, and I'd recommend it. Get the Witchfire trilogy to start your campaign with.
I'd heard there was a d20 BESM. My only comment is - why?
EDIT: I just noticed something in the d20 Star Wars stats for Luke. According to them, he could never have gotten out of the carbonite pit in Empire Strikes Back. The massive jumps made by Jedi are, according to canon d20, the province of the Burst of Speed feat - which Luke doesn't have. Doh!
| QUOTE (DrJest @ Mar 19 2005, 04:24 PM) |
| EDIT: I just noticed something in the d20 Star Wars stats for Luke. According to them, he could never have gotten out of the carbonite pit in Empire Strikes Back. The massive jumps made by Jedi are, according to canon d20, the province of the Burst of Speed feat - which Luke doesn't have. Doh! |
One of my player get all bent out of shape about things like that too. He once shoved the stats of Han Solo in my face and started complaining.
Hey, who care if an NPC based on a movie character can do something or not? I just wannna know if the PC can. It's not like I use Luke Skywalker or Han Solo to fight along side my players in my SW games (What an exercise in geekiness!).
SR avoid that problem by usually not creating stats for their characters used in novels. Ever seen official stats for Talon? Michael Sutherland? Argent?
As for SW and D20, I think it works fine. Not as flashy as Spycraft, but it's functional. SW isn't sci-fi, it's fantasy with a veneer of Sci-fi. D20 works fine for that. If players want more epic, by all means don't start at level 1. Jedi Knights are all 7th or higher by definition of the game.
WEG D6 system wasn't too bad but it wasn't great either. I still can't believe they let the indestructible wookie survive playtesting, for example.
For the record, Blue Rose uses a modified version of the same rules found in Mutants & Masterminds.
Enjoy.
Enjoy.
blue rose is indeed a interesting d20 rpg...
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| So do I, kinda. Except Open Tests; they just have to die. |
I wholeheartedly agree with you on this one..Open test are THE great aberration in the SR3 system...it makes not much of a diffenrece between having 4 or 6 in a skill as getting a high roll becomes a matter of chance, as soon as a 6 is rolled...too much randomness in my opinion...
At least they could change the rule so as to allow you to add the difference in skill levels to the most competent roll
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| Ever seen official stats for Talon? Michael Sutherland? Argent? |
Michael Sutherland has stats. He was in "Prime Runners".
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