 Decking versus Hacking, The change is not needed |
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 Mar 29 2005, 12:39 PM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850  |
I never liked 'Decker' as a term.
I mean, it could just as easily refer to someone who played cards...or walked on boats...or... :S I can understand Kagetenshi's worry about the branding issue, to a certain extent, but I don't agree with it. Every time I have a new player for SR, I have to explain that 'Decker' is the SR term for 'hacker' (approximately). Since I have to run shadowrun for my friends in Italy quite a bit, the term 'decker' got dropped pretty quickly in favour of the word they already understood and could pronounce (more or less ;) ). Old gamers might not be happy with the 'Decker' issue, and it could lead to the kind of confustion Kagetenshi describes...but the game needs new players at least as much as, if not more than, it needs old players to come back. And confusing, arbitrary, terminology that has no grounding in the world outside the game stands in the way of new people getting into the game and the game world. IMHO, YMMV, etc etc. |
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Mar 29 2005, 02:11 PM
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#77
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I'm 100% for the name change, as mentioned a few times before.
Like Demonseed Elite said, it's just a general term to describe a whole group of people who basically excel at hacking into technology and taking control of it in one way or another. I'm sure that not all of them will require a deck, or its new replacement, either, thus leaving the term "decker" available for those who specifically focus more on their hardware for hacking into computers rather than skill, or rather than focusing on drones, vehicles, or all of the other things hackers will be able to perform. Leave the specialized terms for the specialists. Again, like DE said, it's almost identical to the term "Magician" or "Awakened." You have Hougans, Adepts, and Shaman... but in the end, they're all just Magicians. You might as well be complaining that they're using such horrible outdated terms as "mage," "shaman," and "magician," too. I mean, how old and outdated are /those/ terms? Who cares if they describe them perfectly? Minor detail, that. |
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Mar 29 2005, 02:39 PM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
It's all about setting and style. Decker, decking, is Shadowrun. Hacker, hacking, is lame. It's incorrect anyway. It should be called Cracker and cracking. That is the correct term. Hackers build things, crackers break them.
"Old gamers might not be happy with the 'Decker' issue" Old? I'm only 24! Old....Sheesh. |
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Mar 29 2005, 02:52 PM
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#79
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It is not incorrect. The term has evolved. Get used to it -- words and concepts change with time. It doesn't matter what you (with "you" being the people whining about it being the incorrect term because they think it's an insult) want to call yourself. It's what others call you. And for the vast majority of people, "hacker" refers to computer criminals. |
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Mar 29 2005, 02:57 PM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
Would you prefer "Experienced gamers"? ;) If you want people to play RPGs and spend lots of money on it, the earlier you can involve them in the hobby, the better. I started playing SR when I was around 15 or so (I'm starting to go senile, so I can't remember exactly when it was...definitely before Ireland discovered the existence of the Internet...). When I was 15, I thought 24 was "old". |
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Mar 29 2005, 05:28 PM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
No your incorrect. Besides, just because the term has been used incorrectly in the media for 15 years doesn't mean that becomes the correct way.
It's not an insult to anyone it's simply a matter of definition. Again, it doesn't matter who wants to call who what. It's simply the wrong definition. You can't use a work incorrectly for a long enough time and then just pretend it's correct. I don't at least. If you want to sound like an idiot then go head. |
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Mar 29 2005, 05:32 PM
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#82
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
What then 16 years? 17? To the vast majority of people the word hacker does indeed bring to mind a computer criminal, just like witch brings to mind a green skinned wart nosed hag in a pointed hat. |
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Mar 29 2005, 05:35 PM
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#83
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Yes my son, this is called a misnomer. Perpetrated by the media for effect. |
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Mar 29 2005, 05:31 PM
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#84
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
And my point is misnomers eventually become just words or terms. Like faggot and gay and every other word spoken, changing and evolving without asking for permission from some stuffy shirt. Call it whatever you'd like, but know that its meaning has changed.
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Mar 29 2005, 05:34 PM
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#85
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
I refuse to recognize the incorrect definition of a word just because it's been used in the media because it sounds evil. Now that seems logical. You on the other hand do not. "Hey, I'll call a pig a horse and after a few years a pig will no longer be a pig but a horse...of course!" |
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Mar 29 2005, 05:44 PM
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#86
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Right! Cause no word can have more than one meaning! And pigs are cops, doesn't everyone know that?
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Mar 29 2005, 05:42 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
It already has more than one CORRECT meaning. That doesn't mean it can be a catch all or that you can just attach meaning to any word you want. And no, not everyone who speaks English will know that "pig" is a slang term for police. They may know other terms sure but colloquialisms(sp) and the vernacular may not contain the same terms as ours. Thus, in the case of "hacker" we shall not allow the misue of the word to bleed over from the vernacular into the literary meaning of the language. |
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Mar 29 2005, 06:04 PM
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#88
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, because the dictionary defines the language, rather than the other way around. this is why we've never needed a new version of Webster's--once penned, it defined the english tongue for all time to come. languages do not evolve or change, ever.
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Mar 29 2005, 06:08 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Now your just making hasty generalizations. Just because we can say that languages evolve yes, does not make the case that this use of the word is ok to have now. Nor does that mean it's OK for misue of a word by a certain number of people to become the literary meaning. This argument is on the verge of becoming circular in nature so please present some logical evidence as to why we should accept that a pig is a horse now because it has been called so for x amount of years. |
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Mar 29 2005, 06:23 PM
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#90
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You might want to look the word up in a dictioanry sometime, too. Might be surprised with what you find.
Main Entry: hack·er Pronunciation: 'ha-k&r Function: noun 1 : one that hacks 2 : a person who is inexperienced or unskilled at a particular activity <a tennis hacker> 3 : an expert at programming and solving problems with a computer 4 : a person who illegally gains access to and sometimes tampers with information in a computer system |
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Mar 29 2005, 06:31 PM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Oh i've looked it up many times. I think it is an incorrect usage. The correct term and the context in which it was intended to be used will follow. crack·er n. A thin crisp wafer or biscuit, usually made of unsweetened dough. One that cracks, especially: A firecracker. A small cardboard cylinder covered with decorative paper that holds candy or a party favor and pops when a paper strip is pulled at one or both ends and torn. The apparatus used in the cracking of petroleum. One who makes unauthorized use of a computer, especially to tamper with data or programs. This is the correct term for illicit use of computers. It has been ignored by the media and the term hacker has been bastardized by them to fit sensationalization of their stories. It doesn't matter how many people accept it...it doesn't make it correct now. Hacker was never and is not a term pertaining to illicit activity only. Therein lies the error. *EDIT* did you get that from a childrens dictionary? LOL "one that hacks". That is really funny. |
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Mar 29 2005, 06:23 PM
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#92
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yeah, stupid dictionaries. What do they know?
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Mar 29 2005, 06:27 PM
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#93
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Doc, you know better. Dictionaries have been wrong before, are wrong now, and will certainly fuck up in the future.
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Mar 29 2005, 06:39 PM
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#94
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
As am I. Hacker ...
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Mar 29 2005, 06:50 PM
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#95
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Target Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: 27-March 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 4,341 |
Agreed, and the media use is 'correct' from the official stance on the language. the issue at stake between hacker/cracker/phreaker is related to the community of computer enthusiasts itself. my (admittably biased, since I come from the category of 'builders' more so than 'breakers') is that a hacker engineers software, a cracker compromises software, and a phreaker (if in a circle that doesn't use this term, sub cracker) is a script-kiddie (more vernacular, yay!) who can't code their way out of a paper bag, uses the tools their betters have made, to accomplish trivial things like dumping a .vbs into their school computer to change the screen saver or background to something crass. of those I know in the second category (which can be legal. if you have rights to source, you can 're-engineer'/destruct all you like.) who use hacker as a way of associating with the first category, ('builders') and those who use cracker as a way of disassociating with the first category. almost all of these people just use 'script-kiddie' over phreaker, (since phreak is kind of a clunky word in the first place) note that anyone who uses 'leet' except in an obviously sarcastic manner is typically categorized as a script-kiddie immediately. strayed off topic a bit, but the war between Hacker/cracker is only in the community the terms actually apply to, it's been long over in the media. (thanks to movies like 'hacker' and news) Sadly, as a combined result of cracker having superficial similarity to a racial slur, and the fact that only illegal computer use has ever been 'newsworthy' in most circles, hacker was the term chosen by the media for illegal computer use. I maintain that if you found a true member of category two, and asked if they were a hacker or cracker: they'd be equally likely to say: "Hacker, cracker is such a lame term" as they would "Cracker, hackers are just greybeard kernel programmers with no sense of style". |
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Mar 29 2005, 07:02 PM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043 |
I dunno about the decker/hacker thing, but all this "Hackers are really smart people that push the limits" stuff, while perhaps once true, now just strikes me as elitist baloney-flogging.
Hacker at this point is pretty inseparable from the computer miscreant definition. The fact that you need a modifier (white-hat hacker) to identify a non-criminal hacker is a pretty good indication was hacker really means these days. |
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Mar 29 2005, 07:08 PM
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#97
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Um, no. A phreaker compromises the phone system. They're mostly obsolete since the early '90s when the phones stopped using audible tones for command signaling, but they've got absolutely nothing to do with script kiddies. ~J |
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Mar 29 2005, 07:09 PM
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#98
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 555 Joined: 11-August 03 Member No.: 5,408 |
I personally get the feeling that Hacker is going to be used as a broad definition.
I see it as a shadowrunning team neads Brains, Brawn, and Magic. So we have Hackers, Sammies, and Mages. |
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Mar 29 2005, 07:07 PM
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#99
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and the hacker can be subgrouped into: "decker" (trowback expression talking about those that spend all day in a chair or similar hooked up to a fullsensory feed), riggers (people that focus on the control of vehicles and drones) and a new label for those that use their talent to take on building security and similar.
why? look at the others, a samurai can allso be seen as a mercenary, the diff is realy style and filosofy. under magic you have mages, shamans and adepts... the hacker term may well be the catch all term used on the street by those not fully in the know... |
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Mar 29 2005, 07:37 PM
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#100
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
Yes. I don't think I made my main point clear. Decker feels Shadowrun, it sounds Shadowrun, It is Shadowrun. Hackers is a bad movie and that's the first thing I think of when I hear that word. Second, I think of how it's wrong. And before you say it, yes, it was a bad movie. |
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