 Damage Codes, Some ideas |
  |
 Mar 29 2005, 07:13 PM
Post
#26
|
|||
|
Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
I get this comment a lot, actually. The way I see it is, the players have to make a decision: To be cool and die young, or be not-cool and die a little bit older. I don't want to force either on them. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Mar 29 2005, 07:31 PM
Post
#27
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Staging to nothing does not mean no damage. It means no damage that matters. If you're in melee, it says nothing about little cuts. There could be none, there could be dozens. If you're getting shot, the bullet grazed you or was stopped cold by your armour. If you aren't wearing armour, then it just didn't do any damage that matters.. so they hit you in the chest, it flattened against your ribs, you're bleeding, but the actual damage is nonexistant. Even a light wound in Shadowrun is damage that goes beyond surface injuries. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 29 2005, 07:32 PM
Post
#28
|
|||
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
sounds like how blue planet does it. there you roll 3d10 againt the damage done after armor and burst/auto have had an effect. for every dice that comes out as a success the type of wound changes. a light one just adds -1 to your test (take many of them and you fail all the time. 1 sting may hurt, 1000 may incapitate). a moderate one force you to make a test or pass out (and allso adds a negative to all tests). a deadly one makes you take a "death save", if survived then go to the same test as done for a moderate wound (and again it adds a negative mod to all tests). no hitpoints, no wound areas (and to increase damage? take a -1 to hit and get a +1 to damage, repeat as you feel needed). some of the heavyer weapons have so high a damage number that unless your wearing some heavy armor you get a automatic deadly wound with a added modifier to the difficulty of the saves. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 29 2005, 07:35 PM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
For more discussion on what do the various Damage Levels mean, read, uhh, this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 29 2005, 08:23 PM
Post
#30
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
To delve into Harn a little further: The location chart is divided as such: The rows contain body parts (head, hands, feet, knees, forearms, torso, etc.) while the columns are divided into 3 sections: Bludgeoning, Edged and Piercing. Each section header is then divided into 3 more columns with number ranges for each. These number ranges are how much "damage" you weapon does (base + 1 to 4D6). You cross reference your "damage" column with the hit location to see what happens. So if you hit someone in the hand, they need to make a roll to see if they drop what they are holding. An edged (sword) attack to most places results in a roll to see if you start bleeding. Needless to say, piercing attacks to the the Eyes and Throat lead to Kill rolls. These results are number coded (used for the Attribute roll) and color coded (used for determining Injury Points) depending on severity. The color code is the referenced to a base damage + some random element, and becomes your Injury Points. For every 10 Injury Points, you add +1 to the TN you need to make your various Attribute rolls (see above). With enough Injury Points it just eventually becomes impossible to do anything but bleed and die. As complex as it is, we still have some vivid memories of lobbing off forearms, fingers, heads. The visual imagery of getting hit the mouth with a mace or taking an arrow in the eye-socket made all of us howl with the sheer gruesomeness of it all. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 29 2005, 08:19 PM
Post
#31
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
heh, hit locations help with picturing damage. thats for sure. but is it realy usefull for much else?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 29 2005, 09:14 PM
Post
#32
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
It adds the extra realism some people like. I must admit, sometimes I'd like to shoot someone in the leg to slow them down or something like that, but SR doesn't permit these types of things or atleast have any rules to govern the effects. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 29 2005, 09:42 PM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
For a random hit location chart you'd probably want to use a bell curve style probability chart which while it's not fitting with the standard dice roll mechanics it allows for a less random insanity.
Example 3d6 chart 3 - Right Hand Shot 4 - Right Foot Shot 5-6 Right Arm Shot 7-8 Right Leg Shot 9-12 Torso/Head Shot 13-14 Left Leg Shot 15-16 Left Arm Shot 17 - Left Foot Shot 18 - Left Hand Shot You'd probably want to have a second chart on torso/head shots which uses a d6 on which 6s indicate a direct head hit. Note that I've chosen to have head shots not be 3s or 18s as lets face it assume that someone's roughly aiming at the torso there is a decent chance that the head is going to be hit. Of course not all head shots are going to be the same so the second roll would likely indicate some sort of increased damage power code hit. I'd suggest something like a +3 +1 damage code at a minimum. Assuming heavy pistols stay at 9m a head hit become 12S. Of course for multiple rounds hitting this becomes difficult as realistically you'd want to get rid of the burst fire and automatic fire modifiers (or change them to a TN modifier) but then you'd have to roll to hit for each bullet which would increase resolution time alot. With this type of system you'd likely want to make the TN modifier for called shots quite a bit higher or make the called shot be something like a +/- 2or 3 to the 3d6 roll for location and direct head hits occur on 4-6 on the second hit for a torso shot. That way you have increased lethality on called shots but not instakills. Further I'd make called shots incompatible with burst fire or automatic fire as even with enhanced ballistic capabilities it would be stupid for a gun to remain that accurate on an extended burst. Pretty much this would be the province of heavy duty pistoleers and sniper types rather than the samurai with the valiant LMG. Of course called shots with shotguns should be practically unattainable unless you are at ridicolously close range which gets into the whole dodge thing. Further you'd likely want to add in some way of burning karma to avoid sniper rifle instakills or changing the dodge rules so that you can force rerolls on called shots etc. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 29 2005, 09:58 PM
Post
#34
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I don't think anyone is at a loss for how to do it. The argument is really, "Is it worth it?"
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 29 2005, 10:00 PM
Post
#35
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'd say the less rolls the better. If you're going to add a hit location roll, at least make sure it's a single, stand-alone roll. My current hit location chart for ranged combat looks like this: 3, 4, 5: Critical Torso Hit (+1 DL) (Spine, Heart, Lungs) 6, 7: Left Leg (No Over-Damage) 8: Left Arm (No OD) 9: Right Leg (No OD) 10, 11: Chest 12: Abdomen 13: Right Arm (No OD) 14, 15: Hip 16: Head (+1 DL) 17: Face (+1 DL) 18: Eyes (+1 DL) Of course that's not completely intuitive, the optimal situation would be a clear progression from down to up (legs -> head) or from up to down (head -> legs), or with torso and head in the middle as with your table. Personally, I have to have a hitloc table with equal likelihoods for both arms and both legs, which makes building an easy table a bit more difficult. You can always do a search for "hit locations" to find plenty of past threads on the subject as related to SR. You can be sure it won't happen in canon SR4, though, since so many are against it and it doesn't exactly fit the "more streamlined" approach that seems to be stressed. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 29 2005, 10:18 PM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Ohh it would require a huge redoing of large areas related to combat as armor would likely need major revision unless full body ballistic armor becomes the norm in the future. Factor in damage boxes for various body parts and it becomes very clunky very quickly. Not that it's inherently bad it just becomes a much more specialized product whose target audience is largely limited to gun fanatics (I mean even more than it already is ;))
It's worth a fan netbook down the road if people can get off thier butts though. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 29 2005, 10:26 PM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
if you absolutely have to have a shot placement mechanic, why not just use the attack roll? take the highest die on the shot. if it's 1-2, you hit the arms; 3-4, you hit the legs; 5-6, torso; 8+, headshot. simple, vaguely skill-based, no extra dice.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 29 2005, 10:28 PM
Post
#38
|
|
|
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
No hit locations! :grr: Details are for roleplaying. :)
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 29 2005, 10:30 PM
Post
#39
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Considering the probabilities of a high skill character rolling an exploding die you'd pretty much have a headshot every combat action. Assuming you have some enhanced mechanic for headshot damage high skill characters suddenly become that much more deadly. It's not a bad idea but suddenly a high end firearms skill plus init boosters creates the high probability of TPK situations. I'm not saying that having a supremely skilled rifleman with init boosters being able to slaughter huge numbers of combatants regularly doesn't have a level of versimilitude it just transforms the game in huge ways. Remember that anything that increases randomness also tends to disadvantage the party over time as suddenly the gangers you used to laugh at can really slot up with a few random shots. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 29 2005, 10:58 PM
Post
#40
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
One of the few times I thought it would come in handy would be for shooting someone is the leg to slow them down. As SR stand now, someone at 9-stun, 9-physical boxes can still run full-speed.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 29 2005, 11:10 PM
Post
#41
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Jesus, did Patrick just refuse to answer this thread because he knew what would happen if he didn't even grace it with a "sorry, no answers; NDA, you know"? Did he just want to fuck with me?
No. As I went over repeatedly here, realism and detail are not worthless, nor do they necessarily preclude wide appea.. Shitty, sloppy design precludes wide appeal. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 29 2005, 11:19 PM
Post
#42
|
|||
|
Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
I'm not trying to fuck with anybody, Arethusa. I didn't chime in on this because I don't have anything to say. Combat rules are very much in flux right now. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 29 2005, 11:22 PM
Post
#43
|
|||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Armor definitely has to be redone, but that won't lead to any additional complications, just an additional "Coverage" attribute for all pieces of armor. Separate damage boxes for different body parts are in no way required, nor necessarily even realistic.
I guess that's a good thing. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Mar 29 2005, 11:23 PM |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 29 2005, 11:38 PM
Post
#44
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
assume not, lest ye be assumed. with a system like this, it'd be foolish to include enhanced damage for headshots. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 29 2005, 11:32 PM
Post
#45
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Easy there. Wasn't serious. Though, now that you've said that, is there anything you can say without violating your NDA (in terms of issues being looked at, general design paradigm, etc)? Or is it still that vague? [edit] Same question here. This post has been edited by Arethusa: Mar 29 2005, 11:36 PM |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 29 2005, 11:37 PM
Post
#46
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Heh include a damage location chart and not have increased damage or penalties for certain types of shots the realism police will beat you with a sack of d20 modern books. While it's not absolute I've never seen a location chart that doesn't attempt to factor in stuff like bullet enters brainpan and turns cerebellum into cottage cheese please begin to build a replacment character. Of course the thing is that there are competing interests at stake here people who want grim and gritty modern combat rules (think something like millenium's end) vs those people who don't want combat rules getting in the way of a good time. Ultimately it's always a tradeoff when you develop a system trying to stay between those two desires. Typically what that leads to is a base rule set with an optional rules heavy combat system in an secondary sourcebook. If that's what SR goes to I'm not sure that's inherently bad. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 30 2005, 12:01 AM
Post
#47
|
|||
|
Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
I think I'd be walking on thin ice about it right now, but I'll see if there's anything I can tell you. No promises. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 30 2005, 12:08 AM
Post
#48
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the extra damage is handled by higher numbers of successes. a guy with skill 3 is unlikely to get many headshots, and it also unlikely to kill people with a single shot. a guy with skill 6 is more likely to get headshots, and more likely to get one-shot kills. if the guy with skill 3 lucks out gets a headshot, but doesn't kill his target, it's a glancing hit. i don't think a guy who gets a single success on a headshot should have a reasonable chance of killing his target--one success means you winged his ear. that's not a deadly wound. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 30 2005, 12:04 AM
Post
#49
|
|
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Even shots that hit the skull itself (esp. from pistols) have decent chance of glancing off (though not as much from short range), and anything too low in the head may not be enough to kill the guy (but usually incapacitate him. Usually).
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 30 2005, 12:19 AM
Post
#50
|
|||||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Unfortunately, we've still got the problem with gangsters and 3 year olds that would never be able to accidentally kill anyone.
Thanks, regardless of what you can or can't come out with. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 25th December 2025 - 04:11 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.