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> Ranged Combat, the SR3R way
Kagetenshi
post May 26 2005, 11:02 PM
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SR3R Master Thread

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_________________________________________________
Decided:
(All of these are subject to reopening for discussion should there be any strong argument for a different path)

3) Skill groupings

Laser weapons are still their own skill but are now grouped with other firearms (can default to/from).

Bracers and gun canes now use Pistols. There's a reason somewhere, I'm sure of it.

Rifles and Assault Rifles now use the same skill.

Eye guns, cyberguns, etc. now use Ranged Cyber-Implant Combat. I'm not entirely happy with this and would prefer to lump them with another skill, but I can't see one that makes sense.

The Blowgun is now under Projectile Weapons

That leaves us with a final skill list of:

Quickness

<begin linked skill block>

Pistols
Submachine Guns
Rifles
Shotguns
Laser Weapons

<end linked skill block>

Ranged Cyber-Implant Combat


Strength

Throwing Weapons
Projectile Weapons

<begin linked skill block>

Heavy Weapons
Spray weapons

<end linked skill block>


Intelligence

<begin linked skill block>

Gunnery
Launch Weapons

<end linked skill block>

4) Armor-defeating rounds of all shapes and sizes

Standard armor-piercing rounds are only available in Heavy Pistol and heavier varieties. Antivehicular rounds are only available in rifle-class or larger weapons, and do not have bronze cores. While this generally does allow rounds to show up in weapons that might benefit from them in real life, it does avoid some ridiculous situations (like the famous hold-out with AV rounds wielded by an adept taking down APCs).
_________________________________________________
In progress:

1) Shotguns are your new god

Now, not to say that I don't enjoy having ten successes on a 2S attack on everyone in a cone ninety meters long and nine meters wide at the far end, but it's absolutely absurd. What do we do with shotguns?

2) Light pistols are worthless

I'd argue that hold-outs still have a place due to their sky-high conceals, but Light pistols… are not much more concealable than heavy pistols, and orders of magnitude weaker. One suggestion has been to make them more on the order of 9L rather than 6L. Opinions or other suggestions?

5) Flechette Rounds: what do we do with them?

Do we change them? Remove them entirely? Leave them as is? Leave them as is but rename them?

6) Armor Layering

If nothing else, we need to clarify this. I'm fine with the status quo of only-top-two-layers-count, with the second at half value, but I'm also open to suggestions. This one will vary in terms of proper approach based on what else we do with weapons.

7) Binocular Vision Works Backwards

I propose that henceforth monocular vision shall give no penalties to ranged combat. When the melee combat section is opened, a proposal will go up to assign a penalty for monocular vision to it. This is both more in keeping with reality (binocular vision only helps within 25-30 feet anyway, and at that range you don't need to know how close something is to shoot it—on the other hand, how close that fist/knife/whatever is is very important information) and serves to encourage single-eyed characters, as ranged deficiencies are generally more crippling than melee issues for non-close/general-combat characters.
_________________________________________________

Here it is, the one you've all been waiting for. Ranged Combat is specifically focusing around firearms and projectile weapons in combat, and the skills for them. I may address things like weapon weights/costs/etc. here, but it will take a back seat to issues like damage, skills, soak tests, etc. With that said, let's get this party started. Feel free to suggest issues in addition to commenting on those I put forward, and also to ask any questions.

With that in mind, let's get started.

1) Shotguns are your new god

Now, not to say that I don't enjoy having ten successes on a 2S attack on everyone in a cone ninety meters long and nine meters wide at the far end, but it's absolutely absurd. What do we do with shotguns?

2) Light pistols are worthless

I'd argue that hold-outs still have a place due to their sky-high conceals, but Light pistols… are not much more concealable than heavy pistols, and orders of magnitude weaker. One suggestion has been to make them more on the order of 9L rather than 6L. Opinions or other suggestions?

3) Skill groupings

SR2 had "Firearms". SR3 divides rifles and assault rifles, where it's more sensible to divide rifle semi-auto and rifle automatic fire (yes, having two skills apply to AR. No, I'm not suggesting it, but it makes more sense than what we have right now). What's the happy medium?

That ought to get people started.

~J
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ShadowGhost
post May 26 2005, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
1) Shotguns are your new god

Now, not to say that I don't enjoy having ten successes on a 2S attack on everyone in a cone ninety meters long and nine meters wide at the far end, but it's absolutely absurd. What do we do with shotguns?

We've been doing things differently with shotguns and spread. For every 3M of spread, the damage level permanently drops by one. Damage cannot be staged up with extra successes.... however, net successes must be rolled off before staging down.

So in your example, with a cone of 9 meters at 90 meters, normally a 2D (Burst-fire).... it would be a 2L, with X successes. So the worst an opponent could take would be a L wound.

TN with spread are still insanely low.... but you don't have the totally unrealistic damage levels.
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Herald of Verjig...
post May 26 2005, 11:16 PM
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1) I liked the idea of an inversion of the burst staging rules. When the base power of an attack gets to -1, drop the damage level by one and up the power back to 2, repeat as needed.

2) Either blend them into heavier hold-outs, or 8L as the standard starting damage (before design improvements).

3) I have yet to decide if it's too broad of categories, but "One hander", "Two handed" and "Heavy" may work. Pistols and SMGs would be the one handed, rifles and shotguns would be the twohanded, and heavy weapons would still be anything that should be fired from a turret that you are using as troll-portable. Between those three, lasers, grenades and sprays, ranged combat is about as hard to master as melee combat (unarmed, edged, clubs, polearms) and magic (sorcery, conjuring, drekloads of karma into spells). My thanks to whoever suggested this one in a different argument about ranged weapon skills long ago.
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mfb
post May 26 2005, 11:18 PM
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i think any firearm that does less than M base is a travesty of epic proportions.
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Kagetenshi
post May 26 2005, 11:22 PM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
1) I liked the idea of an inversion of the burst staging rules. When the base power of an attack gets to -1, drop the damage level by one and up the power back to 2, repeat as needed.

That alone doesn't solve anything. Take the SPAS-22: at 90 meters it's still dealing 1S with a -9 to TNs and a 9-meter spread (assuming Choke 10, granted). All it means is that now the people in the last ten meters will be facing 2M instead of nothing.

QUOTE
3) I have yet to decide if it's too broad of categories, but "One hander", "Two handed" and "Heavy" may work.  Pistols and SMGs would be the one handed, rifles and shotguns would be the twohanded, and heavy weapons would still be anything that should be fired from a turret that you are using as troll-portable.  Between those three, lasers, grenades and sprays, ranged combat is about as hard to master as melee combat (unarmed, edged, clubs, polearms) and magic (sorcery, conjuring, drekloads of karma into spells).  My thanks to whoever suggested this one in a different argument about ranged weapon skills long ago.


The problem with that is most SMGs really aren't one-handed, or at least aren't intended to be.

~J
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Aku
post May 26 2005, 11:25 PM
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Just a couple off the cuff idea's from someone who knows nothing about guns in real life..

Shotties, i have no idea, i had something, but decided to not make myself look like a complete fool.

Pistols, eh, for true hold outs, i don't see a need for them. Yes, while they MAY exist in the WOLRD at large, i don't see them being used by shadowrunners. Bump the conceal on regular light pistols, and leave it as is.

Skills, while "firearms" is obviously too vague, i agree the current groupings are a bit haphazzard as well.
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Arethusa
post May 26 2005, 11:32 PM
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Kage, I can only reasonably conclude from this thread that you hate me.
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Shockwave_IIc
post May 26 2005, 11:37 PM
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On the Light pistol thing, i don't think it's an issue with the light pistol, more with the heavy pistol. IMO a average joe wearing a Vest with plates Vs a Heavy pistol should take a bruise or a cracked rib with a basic hit (Light or Moderate wound) more likely a Light. Vs a Power of 9 its not going to happen, where as VS a power of 7 it's got a good chance to be reduced to light, Very likely in fact.

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mfb
post May 26 2005, 11:41 PM
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yeah. heavy pistols are god damn insane. a pistol of any stripe should not pierce more armor than a rifle.
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Shadow
post May 26 2005, 11:44 PM
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All pistols should have a 8 or 9m damage code. The difference in hold out - light - and Heavy pistols should be wait, concealability, and ammo capacity.


Maybe the Hold outs could go 6m just to replicate .22's or something. But they should all do Moderate damage. Pistols kill people, even .22s. And in SR it would take an insanely skilled shooter to kill someone using a gun with a 6L damage code.
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mfb
post May 26 2005, 11:48 PM
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i'd say all pistols and SMGs should have a 5-7M damage code, unless you're also going to bump assault rifles up to 10-11M, and sport/battle rifles up to 10-11S. but even that doesn't work unless you also bump up armor values. otherwise, you end up with SR3's unrealistic setup, where pistols blast through armor specifically designed to stop pistol rounds. big pistols would get up into 8-9M, but those would be special cases.
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Shadow
post May 26 2005, 11:58 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
i'd say all pistols and SMGs should have a 5-7M damage code, unless you're also going to bump assault rifles up to 10-11M, and sport/battle rifles up to 10-11S. but even that doesn't work unless you also bump up armor values. otherwise, you end up with SR3's unrealistic setup, where pistols blast through armor specifically designed to stop pistol rounds. big pistols would get up into 8-9M, but those would be special cases.

That makes a lot of sense MFB, I hadn't thought about lowering pistol damages. But it would work. And it would also relegate Pistols to where they are supposed to be, the last resort. Not the main weapon in a battle.
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 27 2005, 12:07 AM
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1) Get rid of Choke, replace it by TN bonuses/reduced TN penalties at ranges beyond Short, and lowered Damage Codes to go with that. If you want a dozen or so decent ways to deal with this, just search for "choke".

2) I have to agree with mfb here. Anything meant to be a defense handgun should at least do Moderate (unless you somehow also make ammunition types which increase Damage Level a reasonable alternative), while handguns penetrating better than rifles is bullshit. 5M-7M is a pretty good range to encompass most handguns and SMGs humans would use in combat. If you feel like it, I'm sure I could dig up a couple of dozen threads about this very issue.

3) I'm a proponent of a simple compromise: only a few firearms-skills, like Hanguns - Long Arms - Launch Weapons - Gunnery. Again, plenty of old threads around dealing with this.
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SpasticTeapot
post May 27 2005, 12:09 AM
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Big pistols often use the same ammunition as assault rifles; however, assault rifles usually do more damage because you fire them in bursts. Good armor (5 ballistic) will allow an average beat cop (4-5 body) to stage a heavy pistol (9M) down to light damage without much difficulty, and it's not too likely to be staged up with an "average" pistol skill of 3-4. Shadowrunners, however, tend to be much, much scarier.

On the issue of skills, I think that assault rifles and SMGs should be in one category. They're both fired somewhat similarly in many respects; many even use the same ammo. (If I'm not mistaken, both the AK-47 and some versions of the Uzi are chambered for the same rounds.) Rifles and (slug-firing) shotguns are also pretty similar in many respects; however, I personally think that they should not be grouped, if only to preserve game balance.
Light pistols should, in my opinion, have a damage code of M. Without armor, a light pistol can easily take down an opponent with one or two hits; large slugs may do more damage, but I personally think the difference is better represented by the greater difficulty in resisting damage.
Also, the claymore should be a sword, not a polearm.
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Arethusa
post May 27 2005, 12:13 AM
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QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ May 26 2005, 07:09 PM)
Big pistols often use the same ammunition as assault rifles; however, assault rifles usually do more damage because you fire them in bursts.

Whiskey, tango, foxtrot, over.

QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ May 26 2005, 07:09 PM)
If I'm not mistaken, both the AK-47 and some versions of the Uzi are chambered for the same rounds.

Say again, whiskey, tango, foxtrot, over.
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Kagetenshi
post May 27 2005, 12:13 AM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
2) I have to agree with mfb here. Anything meant to be a defense handgun should at least do Moderate (unless you somehow also make ammunition types which increase Damage Level a reasonable alternative), while handguns penetrating better than rifles is bullshit. 5M-7M is a pretty good range to encompass most handguns and SMGs humans would use in combat. If you feel like it, I'm sure I could dig up a couple of dozen threads about this very issue.

I know you could, there are dozens. The problem is (well, I'm not sure if it's a problem, but it's a departure from how Shadowrun works right now) that the pistol is the bread and butter of Shadowrunners as it stands, both because of their overpowered nature and their concealable nature, and Trolls would be almost immune to the new pistols.

~J
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mfb
post May 27 2005, 12:14 AM
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still not seeing a problem, kage. big creatures are largely immune to do take less damage from smaller rounds.

big pistols are not commonly chambered in 5.56, 5.45, 7.62, or any other common AR cartridge. it's possible, but such a weapon would largely be a collector's piece--you won't see them in combat.
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Shadow
post May 27 2005, 12:14 AM
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Maybe it would add complexity but to bad there isn't a way to have a duel damage code.

7m against armored opponents, 7S against un armored. That would be a way of representing the deadliness of Firearms while still preserving balance.
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Arethusa
post May 27 2005, 12:16 AM
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It's not a problem. Departing from the disastrous clusterfuck that is SR3 is pretty hard to get wrong. Ok, so maybe SR4 will beat the odds and actually get it very wrong and be worse— you certaily seem to think so, and not without reason— but SR3 is not exactly a holy cow. It's very largely a pile of shit.

Kage, I still think you did this because you hate me.
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Shadow
post May 27 2005, 12:16 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
...Trolls would be almost immune to the new pistols.

~J

I honestly don't see a problem with that. It would certainly make the troll gangers more of a threat.
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Kagetenshi
post May 27 2005, 12:21 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Kage, I still think you did this because you hate me.

Why do you say that?

~J
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 27 2005, 12:27 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
big pistols are not commonly chambered in 5.56, 5.45, 7.62, or any other common AR cartridge.

Depending on the definition of the word "pistol", you could say there is not a single magazine-fed one in any common AR caliber. The closest you get is something like the OA-98, but that's still quite a long ways removed from a Glock. Good luck trying to stick a 70mm long magazine through a human-wieldable grip.

QUOTE (Shadow)
7m against armored opponents, 7S against un armored. That would be a way of representing the deadliness of Firearms while still preserving balance.

That might be best represented by non-standard ammunition effects, such as Hollow Points adding something to the rating of armor worn by the enemy, or even multiplying it by something (x1.5/x2), while increasing the Damage Level by one against unarmored/very lightly armored targets.
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SpasticTeapot
post May 27 2005, 12:29 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ May 26 2005, 07:09 PM)
Big pistols often use the same ammunition as assault rifles; however, assault rifles usually do more damage because you fire them in bursts.

Whiskey, tango, foxtrot, over.

QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ May 26 2005, 07:09 PM)
If I'm not mistaken, both the AK-47 and some versions of the Uzi are chambered for the same rounds.

Say again, whiskey, tango, foxtrot, over.

My mistake; I managed to get the MP-5 mixed up with the AK-47. However, the Uzi does fire a 9mm parabellum round, akin to that used in many heavy pistols, such as the beretta 98fs. Some revolvers are chambered as large as .500; although these are not terribly practical as weapons, one must imagine that they have terriffic stopping power.
On the issue of assault rifles, one must consider that an average assault rifle (8m) is designed to be fired in 3-4 round bursts. (11S-12S damage). In other words, heavy security armor (7 ballistic) makes pistols (effective power of 2 or less) more or less useless, wheras an assault rifle can still deal a decent amount of damage.
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Shadow
post May 27 2005, 12:35 AM
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The thing is, in RL AR's are powerful because of the chambered ammo and velocity at which they are shot. A M-16 has just as much killing power with the 1st shot as it does with the 3rd. Some how it magically does more damage because it hit you with a burst seems wrong. I think the idea was to reduce die rolling (rolling for each bullet) but I think they screwed it up some where along the way.

To me an AR should have a 8-10 S damage code.
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 27 2005, 12:39 AM
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QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
However, the Uzi does fire a 9mm parabellum round, akin to that used in many heavy pistols, such as the beretta 98fs.

You probably mean the Beretta 92FS. If you consider the 9x19mm a common Heavy Pistol caliber, then you're really outta luck comparing them to assault rifles -- 9x19mm (like any common pistol round) penetrates body armor a hell of a lot worse, and has a lot less potential to cause tissue damage; to wit: 112gr @ 1263fps = 397ft-lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle vs. 62gr @ 3025fps = 1260ft-lbs for the 92FS vs. M16A2/A3/A4 with the standard US Armed Forces loadings.

To maintain any sort of reasonable scaling, you'd have to consider the 92FS and any other pistols in 9x19mm "Light Pistols", or Medium Pistols if you wish. You can also find a crapload of threads dealing with this very thing (9x19mm in SR3) with the Search function.

QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
On the issue of assault rifles, one must consider that an average assault rifle (8m) is designed to be fired in 3-4 round bursts.

Were that true (and I'd say it isn't, but we shouldn't really go there in this thread), that still wouldn't be the reason why ARs penetrate armor so much better than pistols. The reason is they fire bullets with a much smaller cross-section and a lot more kinetic energy -- a single shot with an AR will penetrate armor much better than a single shot with a pistol.

QUOTE (Shadow)
To me an AR should have a 8-10 S damage code.

That might be a bit too high. Plenty of unarmored people have been hit several times with assault rifles IRL without losing conciousness -- in fact, with the possible exception of US 5.56x45mm ammunition fired at close range, I would wager it is likely that the average person being hit 2 times in random spots with assault rifles is going to remain conscious for quite some time afterwards. The damage done to a human body by most assault rifle rounds isn't too awe-inspiring.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: May 27 2005, 12:44 AM
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