The Big Picture, Why SR4? Options

[NeoJudas]

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Well, that's what comforts me about mfb's playtest team. If there are any people knows how to break a system into the component particles of the Universe, it's the people he's gaming with.

[Cain]

Yeah, but he stated that he's only run starting characters so far.

Back in SR1 & 2, no PC could start with initiation. However, the moment you got a hold of it, a mage gained every last metamagic. The game-breaking level appeared just after a mage got enough karma for an initiation.

If they're running starting-only characters, even with normal advancement, you might miss the game breaking point if it's hiding past a certain karma level.

[Wireknight]

Actually, attempts have been made to run advanced characters, and, without getting deep enough into the mechanics of gameplay and advancement to risk violating certain agreements, those attempts have not been entirely pleasing in their outcomes, hence why the focus has remained largely on starting characters. The basic mechanic is just not terribly friendly towards characters too far advanced from the baseline.

[Shadow]

[Kagetenshi]

To me, it is good news—while it may end up staying bad for the release, the fact that it's been identified prerelease is nonetheless orders of magnitude more comforting than a "it hasn't happened, we might get around to it".

~J

[Wireknight]

Well, perhaps I misspoke. There have been no attempts to create a Ryan Mercury or a Fastjack test character, only attempts to model certain situations with numbers of skill and attribute dice that exceeded what would be possible with base allocations within the boundaries of the creation system.

[Cain]

Still, at least an attempt was made. That's something.

I'd still like to see the playtesters get a hold of the biggest munchkins they can, and hand them a blank sheet along with 100 or so karma. Try those characters out, then repeat with 500, 1000, etc. That would be more ideal.

[Eldritch]

Without breaking any NDA, Wireknight, can you tell us the approx power of beginning characters in relation to what they are now? Less, the same or more powerful?

[Shadow]

[Kagetenshi]

They also want Taran, but then someone would end up with acid in their underdrawers.

~J

[Thanos007]

[Wireknight]

I believe it has already been stated that starting characters in SR4 are intended to have a reduced power level compared to starting characters in SR3. The tendency for starting characters with attributes and skills in the peak human/world-class ratings (i.e. 6) is viewed as one of the flaws (or manifestations thereof) of the old system.

[Ol' Scratch]

[Wireknight]

I'm just echoing the design philosophy and the observations that guide some aspects of it. I believe that the designers and writers have, up and until this point, underestimated the performance benefits achieved relative to the rating of skills and attributes. I always viewed characters who were supposed to be the "best of the best" in the SR3 universe as probably having skill ratings in the 12-16 range in their particular area of legendary ability.

I am well aware of the bounds of character attributes within SR3. I'd also caution those thinking that people will be more powerful, through the virtue of rolling more dice, in SR4, to realize that the TN# is now 5, which is pretty high in SR3 terms. Also consider that this larger number of dice will decrease corresponding to what would have, in SR3, been situations with higher target numbers.

[Eldritch]

[Shadow]

[Eldritch]

[Cain]

Here's where I start to get worried. Point-based chargen systems are inherently more complex than priority-based ones, such as the old Priority Table. If we add in a progressive cost for skills and attributes, the necessary arithmetic becomes even more complex.

The advantage of the SR3 method is that you don't need a calculator to allocate your basic skills and attributes. Heck, you didn't need one even under the point-based system. The serious number-crunching was reserved for gear; and you only got into complex math for rigging/decking gear. A sam could be done with straight addition/subtraction.

The moment you get into progressive costs, however, the math required goes up. Personally, I hate any game that requires me to have a scientific calculator to create a character. If I can't do it quickly longhand, it's too complex. And given that this system is supposed to be streamlined and *less* complex, this again shakes my faith in the dev's rulemaking skills.

[Ellery]

So you're recommending flat costs during character creation, which is the method used in SR3? Or does even that require too much arithmetic?

[Cain]

Flat costs are generally better, even though they're abuseable. As a big advantage, they only require basic addition and subtraction. Once you start getting mulitplication and long division into it, things get a bit hairy. And when you start needing to figure Nth powers (e.g., the Vehicle Creation rules), you've gone well beyond what a system should have.

All this, of course, is my opinion. YMMV.

[Gyro the Greek S...]

[Shadow]

Glad to have you back Gyro.

The thing is Shadowrunners at the 123 point level were supposed to be professionals. Not amateurs. They were running for at least a year (or equivalent experience). The beautiful thing about the Point buy system is you can reduce points to reduce the starting power. Want a gang campaign, 90 points. Children, 60 points, etc.

Or you could go the other way, give someone 150 points to make a character (watch everything get maxed). I hope SR4 has that kind of scalability and doesn't pigeon hole everyone into playing '1st level' characters.

[Kagetenshi]

Children wouldn't get 60 points. Probably averaging stats of 2s across the board with little to no skills, no resources, and no contacts. Maybe 30-35 points?

Unless you're talking Otaku, in which case you can barely call them children.

~J

[Critias]