 Monder why Fanpro might aim at teenager customers?, Calling all you 14-year olds! |
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 Jun 21 2005, 10:03 PM
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#1
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263  |
Looks like this poll is backing up a hunch i've had. That hardcore fans (as defined as people willing to show up at an internet message board to discuss a P&P game) that are likely to be forming the core of your sales over time mostly started by highschool or first term University. Currently that poll is running near to 2/3 of players starting by the time they could vote, and somewhat under 1/2 by the time they were 16.
If this is an accurate estimation of market research results done through a more credible process I'd say that Fanpro would be fools not to include 14 year-olds (and of course early 20's) in their plan, and likely aim for something in the 16-17 range. So consider this a preemptive, good natured post laughing at all future posts containing a variation of "Fanpro's target market for SR4 is 14 year-olds".....especially if the post is made by someone that happened to have started playing at age 14 or earlier. 8) P.S. Speaking of preemtive, please save me the "but i was a -mature- [insert age of puberty here], and they are just dumbing it down". The question of validity about the "dumbing down" part aside, that isn't the point. The point is exactly what the cigarette companies have known all along. Get 'em hooked young, even if they don't have much money for your product then, and no matter how illogical an action it is they'll keep coming back and dumping cash in your pockets. |
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Jun 21 2005, 10:06 PM
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#2
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Another mystery solved. Wonder why SR books have typos in them? Because they figure their customers are such crappy spellers that they are unlikely to notice. :wobble:
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Jun 22 2005, 02:55 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 265 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bangkok (sometimes Paris) Member No.: 332 |
Did you read the new 3rd Ed core book for L5R RPG?
I just did, and my brain still hurts. If you think there are lots of typos in SR books, then at least AEG is there to prove they can do worse. |
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Jun 22 2005, 03:05 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 26-April 05 Member No.: 7,360 |
I'd be interested to see more info on this, I personally was introduced to RPGs at around the age of 13, but it wasn't because I walked into a store and saw the books on the shelf, I was introduced to it by a cousin who was 17 at the time. Does this hold true for any/some/most/all others? Did other people first get into RPGs through friends or by casually picking up such a book in a store? If the majority of people get introduced to RPGs through other people rather than marketing then it doesn't matter what age they start at. Companies would want to aim at the established players who already know about RPGs and who will go into bookstores looking for the products rather than hoping to catch the eye of a young teenager with no prior interest in the games.
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Jun 22 2005, 03:14 AM
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#5
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I'd argue that the question of contact point is only somewhat related. Plus having that core of young starters is very helpful in that aspect. As they grow up, and life moves them around meeting new people, their playing experience can indoctrinate/mentor future new customers there own (older) age, or even others not of their age. Incidentally what age did your cousin start playing at? EDIT: BTW i am currently the sole 31-35 response in that survey. I started playing because the two guys i formed a D&D gaming group (from internet contact on ENWorld pre 3e release) had started playing SR2 in their mid-teens, and later moved on to SR3. Given their current age and SR3's release date they were no older than 16, but i've never really asked them how young they were when they started. |
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Jun 22 2005, 03:15 AM
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#6
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I started playing D&D when I was something like 8. Shadowrun, with its vaunted complexities, has held my attention where D&D and subsequent revisions have not. Your data is sound, but your interpretation is specious. ~J |
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Jun 22 2005, 03:43 AM
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#7
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
As is your interpretation that I said aiming for a lower age means you nessasarily have to make it for Joe Stupid (or some such). [EDIT]Or visa versa.[/edit] :P I actually see the target age issue only minimally overlapping with the issue of reducing the rules entry barrier and removing some of the overhead burden...which i also certainly don't equate to "dumbing down". My point is that OF COURSE Fanpro is targeting teens and age 14 (and under) is an important market, as it has been in the past. I also find it rather questionable that you putting up with, if not enjoying rules in time gone past is any particularly good gauge outside of yourself. However you can see in that survey it show that many younger players managed to make past whatever barrier SR3 put up. What potential customers did it drive off? How many dropped it quickly before becoming longterm customers? *shrug* I think addressing the SR barrier is really about a look back to try figure out how to increase customers in the future. The part about younger players figures into this, i suspect, more in the way that if they have gaming experience that recent products (which are likely to dominate their experiences) has raised the bar for tightness, consistancy, and effeciency in rules. BTW would you consider Go a "dumbed down" game? Rules so simple that you can teach them all to an average grade schooler in 1/2 hour or less, but it is still a game with a lifetime, or more, of complexity. Of course it is a more "pure" game, it's abstraction allowing very simple rules. But the point stands as an example of compact rules does not equate to dumb game. |
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Jun 22 2005, 05:25 AM
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#8
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Because they want to simpify and streamline the game, they're targetting teenage fans?
Wrong. They're targetting the thousands of fans who have basically said over the years "Great world, neat setting, terrible system." They're also targetting the thousands of SR fans that no longer play, hoping a new system and a fresh look at the setting will entice them back. Go post on RPGnet. Or ENWorld. Or any other "general" gaming website. or go to a major convention and poll random fans. I've heard that more times than I care to remember, every time Shadowrun comes up. And often it's not "The system is too hard/complex/complicated" that they're saying... Simply that it's a sumbersome system that they didn't like playing. Or that the differences and anomalies and exceptions scattered throuhout the game in numerous places made it difficult to learn. Shadowrun has a wicked learning curve to it. I love SR3. I worked my ass off playtesting it and making suggestions and helping to make sure it kicked ass. I know the system like the back of my hand. I've converted it to run several other games with. For what I want in a game, it's a near perfect system. And apparently, some of you out there agree. But you know what? We're the minority, even among SR fans. I can count the number of GMs I know that don't have a list of hourse rules a mile long on one hand. I've run more demo's at conventions over the last 10 years than I can remember, and I've introduced dozens of people locally to Shadowrun. And teaching a newbie the game is a major, major chore. SR4 is coming. YOu play it, or you don't. The playtesters and writers have been working their asses off to make sure it's the best game it can be, and that it still feels like Shadowrun. It's different, but I like it. Enough so that I'll be running demo's at Origins in 2 weeks. Personally, I don't get all the bitching and whining. <shrug> It seems petty and silly at the very least, and mostly just seems a bit counter productive. In the end, as I said, you'll play, or you won't. Stick with SR3 rules if they make you happy. It's not exactly hard to use the sourcebooks as source material still. Just gotta convert any stats for new gear and such, not that hard to do. Or even that necessary. Bull |
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Jun 22 2005, 05:49 AM
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#9
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
and, you know, figure out how the WMI works in SR3. or rewrite the setting if you're not going to use it.
i do agree that you wouldn't have to make SR simpler in order to make it easier to learn and play. |
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Jun 22 2005, 08:14 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
It's certainly possible for fans to rewrite all of the new material for SR4 into SR3ish rules, and to streamline the SR3ish rules too. Basically, to do what FanPro could have, and arguably should have done, instead of bailing out of a tried and true mechanic because they couldn't generate the discipline to come up with a consistent way of applying the mechanic.
However, I think anyone considering such a project is fully entitled to bitch and whine. They're doing the job that they pay the SR developers to do. If we get the SR4 rules half off if we only use the setting half and not the rules half, then that's great--no whining! Otherwise, the company has just dropped all future development of their (former) product, in favor of a new incompatible product. If one doesn't whine about that, what should one whine about? |
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Jun 22 2005, 08:34 AM
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#11
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Bull
It's alot easier to say "I don't understand the bitching and whining", if you've seen something other than the cryptic faqs and "pr" fanpro has pitched to us. We're being fed shit here. If we had a good look at the rules, or even some justification from the developers' view (in detail) as why some things needed to change (preview please?), maybe we could put in something a little more constructive. Don't go saying you don't understand, especially if you're privy to something everyone else isn't. |
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Jun 22 2005, 08:47 AM
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#12
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Wow. How do I even respond to this. I'll deal with your second paragraph first: Fanpro does not work for you. They provide a purely optional service which you can purchase if you like. Now, for your first paragraph... This has been said, been argued, been discussed, etc etc etc. So here's the cliffs notes: SR1 through SR3...Bandaids...Needed redone...Total Rewrite best way to accomplish...more sales...better game. I'll end with this: You haven't seen the game. If when you do, you don't like it, don't buy it. As for my conversion comments... Umm... Other than the core books (CC, MITS, M&M),most books are 95% fluff. That doesn;t need converting. Keep you game rocking with the 3rd ed books. use the setting material from SR4. Or... you know... Don't buy it. Because in the end, buying or not buying is the only way to actually make your voice heard. Bitching on a message board will get you nowhere. Bull |
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Jun 22 2005, 08:53 AM
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#13
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
It's not like we're bitching because we think it's going to somehow be turned into productive energy. We're bitching because we can, and because we're largely in a holding pattern right now -- many of don't like what we've seen about SR4 thus far, but we haven't seen the final product so there's nothing productive we can be doing yet. So, yeah. Sometimes people bitch on the internet, when there's nothing else to do. Bitching at them for bitching doesn't get anything done, either. Oh, and:
Is total BS. It's pure opinion, that a lot of the devs (and their support fans) seem to think becomes true with repetition. We understand the logic. We know the devs think they're doing the right thing. We graps the fact that according to the Powers That Be, the game was utter crap and a whole rewrite of the rules was the blah blah blah only way to save the world from aliens (or whatever).
We just don't necessarily agree with the negativity about SR1-3, and/or agree with the sentiment but still don't like what we've seen of SR4. Repetition does not cause truth. Saying they're brilliant, and SR4 is a sure-fire sock-rocker, does not make it so. We've heard it before. But -- hey! -- way to go. We were all afraid maybe the juvenile "it'll rock" vs "it'll suck!" sort of "yeah huh/nuh uh!" arguing was over and done with. Good job, stirring all that dumb shit back up. *thumbs up* |
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Jun 22 2005, 09:18 AM
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#14
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
See, that's exactly why I don;t understand it. You don;t have any hard info to go on. Imagine that someone says that a movie called "Rise of the Patriot" comes out next year. It's set in the Revolutionary War. John Jones will be the art director. Bob Evans will be the Casting Director. Steven Speilburg is directing. And Katie Holmes and Jon Stewart will be the stars. And that's all the info you get. No trailer, no other info, not even which side of the war the story focuses on. And yet you judge the movie. People would. They'd make assumptions about what will and won;t be in the movie. They'll judge it based on Homes, or Stewart, or Speilberg's past work. They'll make p their mind about it before ever seeing it. And that's what a lot of folks are doing here. I will say that FanPro could do a better job handling the FAQ's. But it's a tricky line they're walking, and you know what? I suspect that they could have published 50% of the book in various FAQ's, and people would still be bitching for one reason or another. And some will bitch when it comes out. There's like 30, maybe 40 people actively posting in these forums. And they claim to speak for the entire fandom, because they're the most vocal. Hell, when SR3 came out, a small handful of peple bitched and moaned and threw hissy fits over it, claimed that it would be the death of FASA, that Shadowrun was dead, blahblahblah. FASA went under like 3 years later, but that had nothing to do with SR3. Hell, SR3 is probably the only reason they didn't shut down sooner. And here's the thing that's really getting to me... People here are bitching about shit they don't know. They're bitching about things they're assuming, and are wrong about. And they're bitching about shit they made up. I've seen more than a couple false statements presented as fact, or presented as "Well of course it will work this way" and a handful of others nodded and said "of course it will" and off they ran. And none of us, none of the freelancers and playtesters reading this (And a lot of us are still reading, despite the fact we want to claw our eyes out and bang our heads on our desks daily) can actually say anything. We're bound by our NDA's. We can't confirm or deny anything. That's why Patrick and Demonseed stepped back from posting, because they had to. This is frustrating as all hell for all of us. Hey, it's cool to go "It would suck if this happens", once or twice. Lord knows I've speculated like that before about games or movies. But some people just keep harping on it, saying "It sucks it suck it sucks" like a fucking parrot. They have no facts, just some very sparse FAQ's and some possibly badly translated German stuff that should have never been released. You've had several playtesters tell you they liked it. you've had a few tell you that it still played like and felt like Shadowrun. And you've had one tell you he wasn't happy with it. So what, a 3-1 ratio? 4-1? So far better ratio than SR1-3 has likely had, judging by the number of people who tried it and "Liked the world, hated the system". But hey, what do any of us know. You guys have the FAQ's and your "facts" and "Speculation" to fuel your rage and hatred. And we all know that FanPro is secretly plotting to destroy Shadowrun, because they hate money. Bull |
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Jun 22 2005, 09:59 AM
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#15
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Bull, would it make you happier if the product came out and we all went "See? Told you so. I guessed right. It sucks."? You said we focused on the negative feedback. Alright, how do you know that the playtesters who had positive things weren't yes-manning the first guy who had good things to say? How do you know the lone man isn't telling the truth?
But hey, what do any of us know. You have your playtest group and NDAs to fuel your frustration and sarcasm. And we all know that FanPro isn't secretly plotting to destroy Shadowrun, because they don't hate money. |
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Jun 22 2005, 10:13 AM
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#16
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Critias: I'll try and respond to your post later. Wrapping up at work, actually gotta go do what they pay me for, so no time now.
Toturi: Honestly, there are something like 20 groups of playtesters, from what I've heard, pribably more at this point (That was a couple months ago, and IIRC, Rob was planning to expand playtesting as sections got finalized). I only know what 4 or 5 of the freelancers thought because they've expressed their opinion here on this board. We don;t actually talk to the other freelance groups at all. There's a central mailing list that only Rob posts on,and he updates us with drafts, and polls us to see which version of various rules we liked the best. Hell, I don;t even know who the majority of the playtesters are, though I can make educated guesses as to many of them. So none of us are just yes-manning. I've given my feedback, I've seen the changes through playtesting (And yes, there are a few cases where my preferred rule wasn;t used, but that happens. I'm only one guy, and my group is only one group.) I sincerely want SR4 to not suck. And hey, I don't think it does. And I'm backing that up by running some demos at Origins next week. if it does suck, and I'm just delusional, well... I expect I'll have things thrown at me. :] I'll give you guys a run down of what I can and how the demos went when the con in over. I'm not gonna say you will all love SR4. Hell, it could flop. In which case, we're all in trouble, because that could very easily spell the end of SR. Hopefully you will. I do. Beyond that, what can we do? Bull |
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Jun 22 2005, 10:21 AM
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#17
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
You want to know where a lot of the "hate and rage" (or whatever) is coming from? It's from being shoehorned into a group that supposedly consists of rabble rousing haters. It's from being called "anti-sr4" over and over because you have misgivings. It's from being shoved, unwillingly, farther and farther from looking forward to a game, by being told over and over again how stupid you are for being nervous. It's from being called, time and again, a petulant child crying over something he doesn't even understand. It's from people claiming, repeatedly, that you're lying, making things up, causing trouble for trouble's sake. It's from being talked down to for having an opinion that isn't unwaveringly positive. My anger and rage -- that of it that deals with SR4, at least, I've got plenty more that's wholly unrelated -- comes, in part, from the polarity that's gripped this forum in the last few months. I'm willing to bet half the "anti SR4 mob" has just been pushed more and more away from SR (and it's devs, most of the freelancers, fans, etc) by being called "anti SR4" than almost anything else. No one likes being stereotyped. Beleive it or not, people dislike being stereotyped as Chicken fucking Little, especially.
The ratio doesn't matter, the opinions do. The one's opinion matters much, much, more to me than those three or four. I know that one, I game with him more than just about anyone else, and I know that he appreciates and enjoys many of the same things I do. I'm going to care more about what he thinks than Goodman or DE or whoever the hell else pipes up about how great it's gonna be.
And stop acting like the FAQs haven't told us anything. That's another boring as hell thing to hear over and over again. We're not just making shit up, those of us who aren't looking forward to SR4 like we used to be. We are being told things in these FAQs. Important things. Things that were, one or two questions alone, enough to make several of us turn a 180 on how we felt about the upcoming edition. There is information in those FAQs, and we're partially basing our opinions on that information -- if those information is incorrect, blame the fucking FAQ, not us. If the FAQ is lying when it says "Magic is purchased just like other attributes" and "There's no longer combat pool" and "the basic roll for just about everything is attribute + skill, TN 5" then fine. The FAQ is lying. If the FAQ isn't lying, and we have a beef with those things the FAQ is saying, then we're not making shit up, we're not bitching about the sky falling, we're bitching about changes we're being told are happening. Maybe the FAQ is lying. Maybe the FAQ is incorrect. Maybe the FAQ, or a press release, or whatever, is misleading us. That doesn't mean we're making anything up -- it means we're being misled. There's a difference there, and if that's what's causing the confusion that you mistake for assumption, then blame the FAQ/press release/whatever, not us. Find me one instance of someone making shit up, and everyone agreeing with it, and "off they ran." One instance of it. Find me one. Find me just one fucking time that happened, without a solid basis in the FAQ or something. Just one. Seriously. Please. Stop accusing us of doing it, and find an example of it happening. Point one out to me, where we didn't just use the FAQ or a dev or playtester's comment or a press release, or whatever. Seriously. If you can't find one -- if you, or Doc Fuckenstein, or wheover else can't find one -- then do us all a favor and shut up about it.
And where the hell did that come from? Where does it keep coming from? It's yet another "argument" that doesn't come true just because it's repeated over and over again. I don't remember anyone ever claiming to speak for all SR fans (or even all SR fans here on DS), or anything like that. When I say "we" I mean "myself, and the other people being labelled as 'anti-SR4' because we don't think the dev team's shit smells like strawberries." And that's all the people I'm speaking for.
And yet another untrue argument people keep trying to pin on us (albeit yours is more sarcastically phrased) -- people keep saying "the dev team love the game, they're doing their best!" We fucking get it. No one, no matter how rabidly "anti SR4" they are, thinks anyone's fucking anything up on purpose. Got it? Do you get that? We know the devs are trying to make a good game. We just think -- based on what we've got to work with -- they're failing anyways. No one's accusing them of doing so on purpose. It's completely accidental that they're streamlining the game by cutting off all the shit I like, for instance. But because it's a product and I'm a consumer, I'm allowed to bitch about it regardless of their intent, and based solely upon the product itself. And from what I've seen of the product -- what a good friend and great gamer thinks of it, what I've read about it in their own FAQs (which I keep assuming are telling me the truth) -- I'm not happy. So, yeah. I'm gonna bitch on the internet. Even though it doesn't get me anywhere (except by letting me feel better for venting). It maybe lets a few other people see they aren't alone with their misgivings about the new system, and it gives you guys a chance to pull a martyr complex. And -- hey golly -- it's also part of what the SR4 forum is for. We're here to discuss SR4, for better or worse. Maybe someday you'll notice the "worse" pattern comes and goes in tides and phases, and that all it takes to stir it up is comments like the last couple of yours. The negativity is your fault as much as anyone else's, in this case. Good job. |
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Jun 22 2005, 10:24 AM
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#18
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I'm not saying SR4 is going to suck. I hope it doesn't. What I am upset about is playtesters coming in here, saying "I don't understand what your problem is", and assuming that since they understand some of the things going on behind the scenes, everybody else should too.
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Jun 22 2005, 11:48 AM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
"tried and true"? Closer to tired and through? ;) Why did SR1-SR3 have all these incompatible sub-systems that use the variable TN (and sometimes fixed TN) mechanic in different ways? Perhaps the continued use of the variable TN was considered for SR4 and from that starting point a consistant, compact, desirable system wide way to use it could not be seen by the developers? While the variable TN path does have a lot of built up history and infrastruture, it also comes with a lot of baggage. Baggage that a dwindling number of people are willing to pick up and carry. Plus huge swaths of that infrastructure has to be tossed anyway if you try to unify the collection of various different games that make up SR. Ironically changing from variable TN to fixed TN might actually help the bulk of current SR players make the jump. If you try to immplement a system wide conversion to one way of using the variable TN it is likely to be harder to exise the old ghosts of what was there. Plus it can help avoid slipping back into the old habit of making up a new way for using the variable TN mechanic for each application. |
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Jun 22 2005, 12:43 PM
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#20
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Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424 |
Thank you Critias for putting the position on SR4 that I too hold, in a clear and articulate manner. Unfortunately I reckon you're wasting your virtual breath! It is all too easy to marginalise those with dissenting views by, as you have remarked, constant repetition of incorrect assertions. The views that you, I and others on this board hold are not comfortable for the Powers-That-Be.
We have stated our opinions, but the basic changes that we disagree on are the way SR4 is going to be. I am afraid that when we have more information and express our opinions on it the reaction from those Powers will be the same; 'If you don't think it's wonderful, shut the fuck up!' |
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Jun 22 2005, 01:55 PM
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#21
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Hey guys, I just got from the Wizkids camp for Anti-SR4 players down in Georgia, and boy, I feel great! They served kool-aid and had lots of fun group games and I got to meet all the devs, and you know what? Now I love SR4! You all should come down too, it'll be a lot of fun for us all! But no more anti-SR4 frowns, those make us all sad. Lets all be happy and sing songs about how we KNOW sr4 will be good, and we'll all be happy forever.
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Jun 22 2005, 02:17 PM
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#22
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Sweet, sweet Irony you are an entertaining friend of mine. :grinbig: |
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 Jun 22 2005, 03:39 PM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 32 Joined: 13-June 05 Member No.: 7,443 |
Off topic? Who knows these days...
Here's what I don't get. Why the f***ing secrecy? It's not like SR4 is comparable to a new Harry Potter novel or Star Wars Episode XXVI, that is likely to be pirated as soon as anyone lays eyes on it. I assume the devs are trying to make a good game. I further assume they themselves believe they are doing a good job. But I don't sense any exitement, any enthusiasm, any eagerness to get us, their -dare I say it- fanbase, exited too. Sure, I get some of that from Bull and a few others, who seem to be having a hard time not being able to talk about their new shiny toy. But why have the devs decided to feed us nothing but cryptic hints. Why? What are they afraid of? Sure, some areas of the rules may still be subject to a certain amount of change, but the core mechanics are surely in place by now. Could a simple example like "Runner X is trying to open a maglock do any harm to the sales? Could it create more animosity and shock among the readers than their enigmatic FAQs? I just don't get the rationale! |
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Jun 22 2005, 03:40 PM
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#24
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Thereīs something surreal about dumpshock these days. People here have always been smart, and when you read it, the texts does still seem intelligent. But it is truely just a "yeah-huh, nuh- uh" argument going on like Critias said. I canīt find any reason to post anymore, because I donīt hate what Iīve heard about SR4, neither do I think people who do should shut up. I just feel exited about the things that are being done with the system... Only that has become an ugly thing here. I can understand why you guys are bitter. I just wish there would be room for someone who isnīt. Everyones so grumpy, I get to feel like a smirking asshole for just being happy.
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Jun 22 2005, 03:43 PM
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#25
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's hard info right there. That's not enough to make a final judgement, but it is damn well enough to glean some ideas about how things might turn out. Sometimes people surprise you on these things. Usually, they don't. So would you explain to me again how the FAQs aren't hard evidence? Are they lies? Did I imagine them? Did someone hack Shadowrunrpg.net and post them?
Counting off-the-board discussions, it's something on the order of 3-5 or 4-5 for me. I'm sure many of us have different ratios. Perhaps more importantly, the dissatisfieds have consistently had playstyles that have appeared to be dramatically more in line with my own than the satisfieds.
Those are facts. Not many, but they're in there. More importantly, we've got the demonstration that the arbitrating force behind SR4 is willing to let these kinds of releases go public as official press releases. It's certainly not cause to assume that everything will turn out badly, but it is sure as hell enough evidence to feel very worried.
Straw man a go-go, baby! ~J |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 23rd April 2024 - 09:53 AM |
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