I'd argue that the question of contact point is only somewhat related. Plus having that core of young starters is very helpful in that aspect. As they grow up, and life moves them around meeting new people, their playing experience can indoctrinate/mentor future new customers there own (older) age, or even others not of their age.

Incidentally what age did your cousin start playing at?

EDIT: BTW i am currently the sole 31-35 response in that survey. I started playing because the two guys i formed a D&D gaming group (from internet contact on ENWorld pre 3e release) had started playing SR2 in their mid-teens, and later moved on to SR3. Given their current age and SR3's release date they were no older than 16, but i've never really asked them how young they were when they started.

I started playing D&D when I was something like 8. Shadowrun, with its vaunted complexities, has held my attention where D&D and subsequent revisions have not. Your data is sound, but your interpretation is specious.

~J

As is your interpretation that I said aiming for a lower age means you nessasarily have to make it for Joe Stupid (or some such). [EDIT]Or visa versa.[/edit] I actually see the target age issue only minimally overlapping with the issue of reducing the rules entry barrier and removing some of the overhead burden...which i also certainly don't equate to "dumbing down". My point is that OF COURSE Fanpro is targeting teens and age 14 (and under) is an important market, as it has been in the past.

I also find it rather questionable that you putting up with, if not enjoying rules in time gone past is any particularly good gauge outside of yourself. However you can see in that survey it show that many younger players managed to make past whatever barrier SR3 put up. What potential customers did it drive off? How many dropped it quickly before becoming longterm customers? *shrug*

I think addressing the SR barrier is really about a look back to try figure out how to increase customers in the future. The part about younger players figures into this, i suspect, more in the way that if they have gaming experience that recent products (which are likely to dominate their experiences) has raised the bar for tightness, consistancy, and effeciency in rules.

BTW would you consider Go a "dumbed down" game? Rules so simple that you can teach them all to an average grade schooler in 1/2 hour or less, but it is still a game with a lifetime, or more, of complexity. Of course it is a more "pure" game, it's abstraction allowing very simple rules. But the point stands as an example of compact rules does not equate to dumb game.

Wow. How do I even respond to this. I'll deal with your second paragraph first:

Fanpro does not work for you. They provide a purely optional service which you can purchase if you like.

Now, for your first paragraph... This has been said, been argued, been discussed, etc etc etc. So here's the cliffs notes:

SR1 through SR3...Bandaids...Needed redone...Total Rewrite best way to accomplish...more sales...better game.

I'll end with this: You haven't seen the game. If when you do, you don't like it, don't buy it.

As for my conversion comments... Umm... Other than the core books (CC, MITS, M&M),most books are 95% fluff. That doesn;t need converting.

Keep you game rocking with the 3rd ed books. use the setting material from SR4.

Or... you know... Don't buy it. Because in the end, buying or not buying is the only way to actually make your voice heard.

Bitching on a message board will get you nowhere.

Bull

Is total BS. It's pure opinion, that a lot of the devs (and their support fans) seem to think becomes true with repetition. We understand the logic. We know the devs think they're doing the right thing. We graps the fact that according to the Powers That Be, the game was utter crap and a whole rewrite of the rules was the blah blah blah only way to save the world from aliens (or whatever).

We just don't necessarily agree with the negativity about SR1-3, and/or agree with the sentiment but still don't like what we've seen of SR4.

Repetition does not cause truth. Saying they're brilliant, and SR4 is a sure-fire sock-rocker, does not make it so. We've heard it before.

But -- hey! -- way to go. We were all afraid maybe the juvenile "it'll rock" vs "it'll suck!" sort of "yeah huh/nuh uh!" arguing was over and done with. Good job, stirring all that dumb shit back up. *thumbs up*

See, that's exactly why I don;t understand it. You don;t have any hard info to go on.

Imagine that someone says that a movie called "Rise of the Patriot" comes out next year. It's set in the Revolutionary War. John Jones will be the art director. Bob Evans will be the Casting Director. Steven Speilburg is directing. And Katie Holmes and Jon Stewart will be the stars. And that's all the info you get. No trailer, no other info, not even which side of the war the story focuses on.

And yet you judge the movie. People would. They'd make assumptions about what will and won;t be in the movie. They'll judge it based on Homes, or Stewart, or Speilberg's past work. They'll make p their mind about it before ever seeing it.

And that's what a lot of folks are doing here. I will say that FanPro could do a better job handling the FAQ's. But it's a tricky line they're walking, and you know what? I suspect that they could have published 50% of the book in various FAQ's, and people would still be bitching for one reason or another. And some will bitch when it comes out.

There's like 30, maybe 40 people actively posting in these forums. And they claim to speak for the entire fandom, because they're the most vocal. Hell, when SR3 came out, a small handful of peple bitched and moaned and threw hissy fits over it, claimed that it would be the death of FASA, that Shadowrun was dead, blahblahblah. FASA went under like 3 years later, but that had nothing to do with SR3. Hell, SR3 is probably the only reason they didn't shut down sooner.

And here's the thing that's really getting to me... People here are bitching about shit they don't know. They're bitching about things they're assuming, and are wrong about. And they're bitching about shit they made up. I've seen more than a couple false statements presented as fact, or presented as "Well of course it will work this way" and a handful of others nodded and said "of course it will" and off they ran.

And none of us, none of the freelancers and playtesters reading this (And a lot of us are still reading, despite the fact we want to claw our eyes out and bang our heads on our desks daily) can actually say anything. We're bound by our NDA's. We can't confirm or deny anything. That's why Patrick and Demonseed stepped back from posting, because they had to.

This is frustrating as all hell for all of us.

Hey, it's cool to go "It would suck if this happens", once or twice. Lord knows I've speculated like that before about games or movies. But some people just keep harping on it, saying "It sucks it suck it sucks" like a fucking parrot. They have no facts, just some very sparse FAQ's and some possibly badly translated German stuff that should have never been released.

You've had several playtesters tell you they liked it. you've had a few tell you that it still played like and felt like Shadowrun. And you've had one tell you he wasn't happy with it. So what, a 3-1 ratio? 4-1?

So far better ratio than SR1-3 has likely had, judging by the number of people who tried it and "Liked the world, hated the system".

But hey, what do any of us know. You guys have the FAQ's and your "facts" and "Speculation" to fuel your rage and hatred.

And we all know that FanPro is secretly plotting to destroy Shadowrun, because they hate money.

Bull

The ratio doesn't matter, the opinions do. The one's opinion matters much, much, more to me than those three or four. I know that one, I game with him more than just about anyone else, and I know that he appreciates and enjoys many of the same things I do. I'm going to care more about what he thinks than Goodman or DE or whoever the hell else pipes up about how great it's gonna be.

And stop acting like the FAQs haven't told us anything. That's another boring as hell thing to hear over and over again. We're not just making shit up, those of us who aren't looking forward to SR4 like we used to be. We are being told things in these FAQs. Important things. Things that were, one or two questions alone, enough to make several of us turn a 180 on how we felt about the upcoming edition. There is information in those FAQs, and we're partially basing our opinions on that information -- if those information is incorrect, blame the fucking FAQ, not us. If the FAQ is lying when it says "Magic is purchased just like other attributes" and "There's no longer combat pool" and "the basic roll for just about everything is attribute + skill, TN 5" then fine. The FAQ is lying.

If the FAQ isn't lying, and we have a beef with those things the FAQ is saying, then we're not making shit up, we're not bitching about the sky falling, we're bitching about changes we're being told are happening. Maybe the FAQ is lying. Maybe the FAQ is incorrect. Maybe the FAQ, or a press release, or whatever, is misleading us. That doesn't mean we're making anything up -- it means we're being misled. There's a difference there, and if that's what's causing the confusion that you mistake for assumption, then blame the FAQ/press release/whatever, not us.

Find me one instance of someone making shit up, and everyone agreeing with it, and "off they ran." One instance of it. Find me one. Find me just one fucking time that happened, without a solid basis in the FAQ or something. Just one. Seriously. Please. Stop accusing us of doing it, and find an example of it happening. Point one out to me, where we didn't just use the FAQ or a dev or playtester's comment or a press release, or whatever. Seriously. If you can't find one -- if you, or Doc Fuckenstein, or wheover else can't find one -- then do us all a favor and shut up about it.

And where the hell did that come from? Where does it keep coming from? It's yet another "argument" that doesn't come true just because it's repeated over and over again.

I don't remember anyone ever claiming to speak for all SR fans (or even all SR fans here on DS), or anything like that. When I say "we" I mean "myself, and the other people being labelled as 'anti-SR4' because we don't think the dev team's shit smells like strawberries." And that's all the people I'm speaking for.

And yet another untrue argument people keep trying to pin on us (albeit yours is more sarcastically phrased) -- people keep saying "the dev team love the game, they're doing their best!"

We fucking get it. No one, no matter how rabidly "anti SR4" they are, thinks anyone's fucking anything up on purpose. Got it? Do you get that? We know the devs are trying to make a good game. We just think -- based on what we've got to work with -- they're failing anyways.

No one's accusing them of doing so on purpose. It's completely accidental that they're streamlining the game by cutting off all the shit I like, for instance. But because it's a product and I'm a consumer, I'm allowed to bitch about it regardless of their intent, and based solely upon the product itself. And from what I've seen of the product -- what a good friend and great gamer thinks of it, what I've read about it in their own FAQs (which I keep assuming are telling me the truth) -- I'm not happy.

So, yeah. I'm gonna bitch on the internet. Even though it doesn't get me anywhere (except by letting me feel better for venting). It maybe lets a few other people see they aren't alone with their misgivings about the new system, and it gives you guys a chance to pull a martyr complex.

And -- hey golly -- it's also part of what the SR4 forum is for. We're here to discuss SR4, for better or worse. Maybe someday you'll notice the "worse" pattern comes and goes in tides and phases, and that all it takes to stir it up is comments like the last couple of yours. The negativity is your fault as much as anyone else's, in this case. Good job.

"tried and true"? Closer to tired and through? Why did SR1-SR3 have all these incompatible sub-systems that use the variable TN (and sometimes fixed TN) mechanic in different ways? Perhaps the continued use of the variable TN was considered for SR4 and from that starting point a consistant, compact, desirable system wide way to use it could not be seen by the developers?

While the variable TN path does have a lot of built up history and infrastruture, it also comes with a lot of baggage. Baggage that a dwindling number of people are willing to pick up and carry. Plus huge swaths of that infrastructure has to be tossed anyway if you try to unify the collection of various different games that make up SR.

Ironically changing from variable TN to fixed TN might actually help the bulk of current SR players make the jump. If you try to immplement a system wide conversion to one way of using the variable TN it is likely to be harder to exise the old ghosts of what was there. Plus it can help avoid slipping back into the old habit of making up a new way for using the variable TN mechanic for each application.

Sweet, sweet Irony you are an entertaining friend of mine.

That's hard info right there. That's not enough to make a final judgement, but it is damn well enough to glean some ideas about how things might turn out. Sometimes people surprise you on these things. Usually, they don't.

So would you explain to me again how the FAQs aren't hard evidence? Are they lies? Did I imagine them? Did someone hack Shadowrunrpg.net and post them?

Counting off-the-board discussions, it's something on the order of 3-5 or 4-5 for me. I'm sure many of us have different ratios. Perhaps more importantly, the dissatisfieds have consistently had playstyles that have appeared to be dramatically more in line with my own than the satisfieds.

Those are facts. Not many, but they're in there. More importantly, we've got the demonstration that the arbitrating force behind SR4 is willing to let these kinds of releases go public as official press releases. It's certainly not cause to assume that everything will turn out badly, but it is sure as hell enough evidence to feel very worried.

Straw man a go-go, baby!

~J

LOL, nice tie-in.

I must say i also enjoyed it. I'm so glad i didn't turn down that golden chance to become enlightened while having some laughs with friendly folks. I'm also glad i had the insight to wipe away my anti-SR4 frown early on. That way i spared Fanpro the burden of love of transfering me across the lake to Camp Big Stick for more assertive guidance on moving up to this next level of existance we so deeply enjoy.

Nah. "Virtually everything" is a little harsh.

And over all - the revisions were not as good as the orginal. X-men, Spiderman? Good movies - not as good as the comics. Any of the Batman movies? Some good, some not - none of them as good as the comics. Same expierence with books that were made into movies - not one is as good as the orginal novel. Harry Potter? My wife and kids loved the movies - they loved the books more. LotR? Everyone I spoke with that read the books like the books much more than the movies - weather they like the movie or not.

So that argument holds little weight.

Revisions are for Lemmings. Blindly following they're little path of books laid out before them. Yeah, I've been a lemming in the past. But have since come to my senses. It's just dumb. They keep saying that the books are 80% fluff anyway so the rules change will have little effect on old materiel. So the new books will be 80% rehashed materiel? Same description of the Ares Predator. Same history of the World. Same Background for the corps.... Same-ole stuff we already have. Somne of us oldtimers have that materiel sveral times over.

So you're gonna buy a 40-50 dollar book, that you already have 80% of on your shelf??

Thats just dumb.

Umm, have you seen the Batman Begins yet? He is talking about a revision of the Gotham world in it in relation to the last 4 Hollywood movies.

What you are describing is more a general medium format issue, not the actual revision. Topped off with subjectiveness. There are actually movies that are equal in quality, if not arguably "better" in some aspects than the book/play that they originated from. I could provide examples, but you kindly already have. Not the best example, but an ok one....

Then i guess an introduction is in order, as i am the first person to "speak" with you about the movies having at least equal quality and in some ways a vast improvement over the dronings of Toilken. Frankly i couldn't even bring myself to finish the damn books. Sure there were some things from the books that i liked that didn't make the movie, once again a medium change issue as movies are generally shorter. But then SR3 to SR4 isn't really a medium change.

EDIT:

Umm, that 80% (probably higher) is for things like Shadows of North America, which they aren't re-issuing. At least not for the time period of the past or present.

Go through your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition Core rule book, magic book, cyber books, matrix books, Etc. Even in those, the amount of repeated materiel is fairly high.

You call that 80% high? Well some of the equipment names stuck for weapons, and the stats were close in repeat equipment. But they also were more similar mechanics. There were large additions though. The magic resources changed and increased radically. Also going from Cybertech to M&M? Sheeeat man, that was no only 20% new or changed. EDIT: How about Streetsam Catalog to CC?

The time i saw 80% given here by, was it Adam? He was refering to the fluff books, and it was only that low because of the possible effects of the 5 year leap.

Plus remember that beyond the magic system blowup/rebuild (and damn i hope vehicle blowup/rebuild) SR4 has a major new section. The wireless Matrix. You won't find a lick of that in SR3.

you do it so often that you don't even notice you wrote it it in the same post you say you don't - ever ...
My english is bad, I haven't well understand some previous statement as: dev are dumbing down the rules for child to play it (but not on purpose ?).

If I was saying "ALL SHADOWRUN FANS AGREE, THE SYSTEM IS BEING DUMBED DOWN SO THAT A TRAINED MONKEY CAN PLAY IT WELL," your argument would be founded. As it is, it's not. I'm stating my opinion based on what I've heard and read, and never claiming it to be the actual opinion of even every "anti SR4" person, much less "every Shadowrun fan."

And I never said I wasn't accusing the devs of dumbing it down on purpose. I said I don't think they're ruining it on purpose. I'm sure that, taken one change at a time, every single thing they're doing has been (in theory) discussed heavily, thought through quite a bit, seriously considered, etc, etc, and every little change they're making makes quite a bit of sense. I just think they haven't taken a step back from their creation and looked at the whole package, the combined effect of every change they plan on. Or, rather, I guess they just haven't stepped back and looked at all those changes from my point of view, and the point of view of the people I game with (who have been, each and every one, negative about most of what we've heard).

I don't think they're "accidentally" streamlining it, or anything. I'm sure they mean well, and they're streamlining it quite purposefully. But, well, that's what the road to Hell is paved with (which is why I shy away from good intentions, as a rule).

Funny... you have summarized everything. If it's a good book, you will buy it... Wow... Actually, I only bought RP book if I was interested in them...

I love you Bull : you summarize exactly what I think about SR4
thank you for allowing me not to take 20 mn to write a complex post in english

you can say one more!
you know, we are legions of french razor-sharp posters but we rarely post on DS cause we pass most of our time on our native, nearly flameware-proof, french forum where the grass is greener

C'est maintenant qu'il le remarque, quel boulet ...

Babelfish says: "It is now that it notices it, which ball."

Your insult is lost on me.

it s not an insult!
a proper translation will be "that s now you notice it, you chainball"

Idioms are lost on Babelfish, and it seems at times that a lot is lost on you.