 Suggestions for SR4 Arsenal, right on time, hopefully |
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 Aug 29 2005, 11:58 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624  |
Aren't both weapons designed for totally different roles? I would also assume the Metalstorm system to be the much more expensive weapon...
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Aug 29 2005, 12:23 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 16-August 05 From: Stuttgart, Germany Member No.: 7,559 |
Afaik the only role Miniguns are used today is in situations where your either moving a lot and / or trying to hit a highly mobile target like:
1) Missile Defense on Ships 2) Mobile Air Defense 3) Short Range Aerial Combat 4) Fire Support (usually from an aircraft / helicopter) All those enviroments are pretty high tech and got not much to do with grunt work, were a "regular" MG will do more good as RPM in that high numbers is not needed and the penetration ability vs. tanks is usually pretty lousy on miniguns (except the A10 mounted one of course). If you really need RPM, specially in Missile Defense situations, a Metalstorm will do way better due to "burst RPM". The website is very shy on reload info, so you cant really expect sustained RPM from a Metalstorm (yet?). Just grabbing some videos to get more info on that. The advantage of Metalstorm should be easy of handling and low production cost. You dont really need any high tech, specially no rotating barrels. Hm, well the reload part is easy. You insert a "tube" (loaded with shells) into the barrel. The handling of that tubes may be an issue as they would get pretty long and thin, not as nice as the clips we have now. In the 40mm grenade video there seemed to be 4 grenades / tube, dunno how much you could load into a regular caliber tube. Its WAY more comlicated then belt feed for sure... Edit: Can anyone post the rules for the "Yamaha Sakura Fubuki" (reload, clipsize,...) please? |
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Aug 29 2005, 02:05 PM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
All miniguns I am aware of fire at the very instant you depress the trigger. Because of that fact alone the "noise signature" is totally insignificant -- the first shots will quite effectively drown it out @ about 150-155dB vs. less than 90. Likewise the very first shots will already happen at a very decent RoF -- I've seen 0.4 seconds quoted as the time it takes for the M61 Vulcan to get up to full speed (4000 or 6000rpm), and in that 0.4 seconds it will already have fired something like 15-20 rounds, which means an average RoF of about 2000-3000rpm over the first 0.4 seconds and then 4000-6000rpm after that. And that's a 20mm cannon, a 7.62mm vehicle-mounted minigun (such as the M134) should accelerate quite a bit faster. I absolutely am not supporting the use of man-portable miniguns. There are plenty of other downsides, which I've went through before, at least in this thread. As for MetalStorm, reloading is not the only problem it has. Accuracy will be pretty much crap, and the external ballistics of the first round fired out of the tube will be wildly different from that of the last round. If there's a jam or other problem, at the very least you have one whole tube which must be replaced before it can fire. Also, in calibers around 20mm to 30mm, it would be just too big to be mounted on helicopters, fighters or other smaller aircraft for ground attack/aerial combat. Still, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch that MetalStorm-like weapons would largely replace minigun-based shipboard (and possibly also some static and mobile ground-based) close air defence systems. |
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Aug 29 2005, 02:36 PM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 29-August 05 Member No.: 7,640 |
Your are right! Everybody is using a rail system, where you can mount a lot of things. But if you want that, go and play airsoft! In shadowrun this is not neccessary and the balance is better without! Such a rail system would make weapon handling more complicated to play. everything you need on a weapon is some sort if sight, a quick detachable can/silencer and a strong light to blind your opponent. so here we are at my suggestions for SR4. A powerful weapon mounted light, to temporarily blind your enemy. a houserule let it work like a superflash within SR3 or like a normal torch. the light runs with a battery which will spent normal light for around 60 minutes or for four flashes each costs 15 minutes of battery lifetime and every use of the flash could possibly burn the bulb out so the GM through a dice everytime i used it and when it turned a one or a six the bulb was defect. also this weapon light was restricted for law enforcement and military and so the replacement bulbs were hard to get. The other suggestion i have would be the possibility to mount the ammunition pouches directly to an armor vest with plates or something similar. so in general in SR4 Arsenal i wish to find: -some kind of weapon light ( Inspiration: #1 ; #2 ; #3 ; #4 ) - Armor with mounting possibilities for equipment and ammunition pouches. just my 2 cents. let me know what you guys think! regards, nuke |
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Aug 29 2005, 03:22 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
SR3 core doesn't say anything about assault cannon rounds being armor piercing... besides i maybe should have been more precise, the AP rounds i mean utilize a shapecharge to penetrate vehicle armor, so they would be the equivalent of AV rounds. The actually point i wanted to make was that all assault cannon rounds should be treated like grenades meaning that they damage the surroundings of the impact point due to explosive fragmentation. As for the stock of shotguns and AR, what bothered me was that you coudn't add it at weapon construction, while the frames don't provide recoil comp. The idea, that for example a SMG has a smaller recoil than an assault rifle is simply not true..... MP5 9mm has a much stronger recoil than an AR using 5.56mm rounds... man portable miniguns, well the problem with realism has already been addressed, but there is also a problem regarding the rules. if one can buy a HV-LMG, why should someone buy a minigun, it has a smaller fire rate, less mounts, requires a prefire spin-up............. and the metalstorm weapons, well 240.000 rounds per minute, are only achieved mathematically, the weapon doesn't have enough ammunition to fire for one minute. two underbarrel mounts make sense (e.g.: flashlight and laser mounted under barrel of MP5), however a grenade launcher and a flamer..? No, it sounds cool, but no... another thing i want to see changed are max. fire ranges for portable missile. systems portable by one man only usually have a max. range of 800m (except anti air, like stinger), while two men portable systems have longer ranges. |
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Aug 29 2005, 03:59 PM
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#31
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
you can find this in cannon companion, so i have a feel it should allso be available in arsenal. alltho i dont know about that glare effect...
while not exactly in combo with armor, sota63 had web gear that allowed for pouches. so again it should be fairly easy to port over. hmm, those had a rule against being used with security or military armor. but stuff like that can be overruled by a gm if he feels like it. as for that forgrip and bipod combo. i recall seeing images of WW2 MG soldiers using the bipod as a improvised forgrip. basicly fold the legs down but not spread them. then grip said legs. the gm could allow for a similar stance to have the same effects as a forgrip without having to actualy add one... |
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Aug 29 2005, 04:02 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Actually this is THE weapon for the bug hunting female. Granted, it requires the use of duct tape and a rather large femal. :D In the scene where Ripley goes after Newt in the Athmo processor, she tapes a flamethrower to an M41 rifle. That in turn is "A 10mm caseless assault rifle with a 4 shot grenade launcher in an over and under configuration" :D Birdy |
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Aug 29 2005, 04:07 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
oh yay, landmates (appleseed ?!?), actually it is possible to create one with SR3 Rigger, use a large anthroform drone. |
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Aug 29 2005, 04:16 PM
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#34
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
AppleSeed, indeed. ;)
As SR4 probably won't have a system to create vehicles, it would be nice to have a template at least - building it oneself wouldn't work that well. (It didn't in SR3, too - problems with load and space) |
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Aug 29 2005, 04:17 PM
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#35
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
bingo, duct tape. alltho i confess that i must have missed that scene. or forgotten about it... anyways, thats not a proper solution. and could be pulled of in SR if you want to ;) (i recall reading a entry for duct tape somewhere) hell, duct tape a shotgun to the setup at the same time and load it with slugs :silly: |
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Aug 29 2005, 04:40 PM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
To quote Jon Stewart: "Whaaaaa?" 9x19mm M882 NATO Ball, 112gr projectile at ~1350fps with 6gr propellant out of an MP5A3 (2.88kg/6.35lbs) -> recoil energy of 1.4ft-lbs at 3.7fps, recoil impulse of 0.78lbs/s 5.56x45mm M855 NATO Ball, 62gr projectile at ~3025fps with 26.1gr propellant out of an M16A2 (3.77kg/8.31lbs) -> recoil energy of 4ft-lbs at 5.6fps, recoil impulse of 1.3lbs/s
Or, alternatively, "A Thompson M1 SMG with lots of plastic crap tacked on". ;) |
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Aug 29 2005, 05:02 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
The current miniguns were originally built for use from aircraft. People had actually had the idea of powering a gatling gun with a gasoline engine in the early days of the 20th century, but no one could think of an application where you needed that many rounds per minute.
MetalStorm technology ought to be more reliable than standard firearms, provided the ammunition has sufficiently good quality control. Almost all of the jams in current weapons are caused by a failure to extract an empty casing (no problem, MetalStorm has no casings) or a failure to feed a new round due to a defective/damaged magazine (MetalStorm has no mags). Dirt, dust or carbon fouling can also be a problem (especially in AR-15 style weapons), but since there are no moving parts in a MetalStorm that issue doesn't come up either. Really, all that can go wrong in a MetalStorm is some kind of circuitry glitch, battery problems or low grade ammo. Come to think, that's plenty enough. On the other hand, if one barrel jams you still have as many as 35 others (depending upon model) to take up the slack . . . Personally, I'd like to see the hand carried miniguns just go away. Hell, I've only seen one used once in an SR game and I was using it (didn't like it either). The assault cannons make more sense . . . |
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Aug 29 2005, 05:11 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Then it's a good thing for non-MetalStorm firearms manufacturers that MS is not ever going to replace "standard" firearms in any significant degree. Modern miniguns (which could be said to be partly competing with MetalStorm weapons), unlike most more conventional firearms, have excellent reliability records -- the above-mentioned M134 has an incredible 30,000 mean rounds before failure average. |
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Aug 29 2005, 06:15 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
i wasn't talking about the recoil in terms of math, but more from personal experience MP5 versus G36. Keep in mind that length and weight of the barrel play an improtant role, since they negate recoil. But believe me, you can easily fire a G36 with stock folded, and its no problem with its recoil.... A MP5 allthough being a very accurate weapon, is not so easy to handle without stock... but we are getting off topic...... but most importantly there are also SMG with caliber 5.56 |
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Aug 29 2005, 06:49 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Okay, time to deal with each objection over a minigun, in order.
1) Weight- As I mentioned, this is dealt with using lightweight materials. 2) Recoil- This is SR. I've built assault rifles using SR3 that are recoilless until the 10th bullet. Install a specialized recoil compensation system. Not that hard. If you think it is, you can work with the bullets or firing mechanism. 3) Battery weight- Not a problem. Look at the portable lasers. 4) Noise- It's a fragging minigun! If you're trying to sneak around with it, you're doing something wrong. 5) Time until firing- As someone else mentioned, quite a few modern miniguns fire right at or very close to the time the trigger is pulled. 6) Ammo- This has been dealt with. It's reloaded much the same way any belt-fed gun is. Or, you can use one with magazines (incorrectly called clips in SR). 7) Purpose- This has been one most people are missing, and it's too obvious for such to be excuseable. Basically, the minigun would be, as a tactical weapon, quite simple. Since you really probably are not going to be that accurate with it anyways, it's primary use would be surpressive fire. With the noise and distraction created, it allows for troops with smaller handguns to potentially get better shots and not have to worry about people trying to shoot back at them. It can also be used on large crowds if needed. Loaded with gel rounds, it would be the ultimate anti-riot weapon, as any rioter not subdued by the rounds would flee in terror. |
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Aug 29 2005, 06:57 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
When making categorical statements and putting them out as fact, it is, generally speaking, better to go with math than with personal experience.
That depends on definitions. For most people, a submachine gun is defined by the fact that it fires a pistol-caliber round, and a shortened assault rifle is called a carbine. Some call particularly small carbines (like the HK53) SMGs, while a few even call AK-47s SMGs -- I'd like to call this simply wrong use of the words, but unfortunately I'm not allowed to make such judgments, not being a native English speaker. Or did you mean that there are SMGs that don't fire the 5.56x45mm/.223 Remington, but some other cartridge that takes a bore diameter of ~5.6mm? |
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Aug 29 2005, 07:03 PM
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#42
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
showoff :silly: |
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Aug 29 2005, 07:15 PM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Judging by the weights of firearms in the Shadowrun world, these "lightweight materials" do not exist there.
Right. And we can make the exact same argument about anything and everything. "Man-portable antimatter cannons not feasible? This is SR!"
Apparently it is that hard, considering that nobody has even made a theoretical system which would allow you to reduce the recoil of a man-portable minigun to such a level that firing it without a heavy harness or on the move would be feasible. I agree on points 3, 4, and 5, and would like to point out that it's more like "all" and not "quite a few", and also that in those cases it's always "right at".
It's not that the feed mechanism of a minigun somehow makes it difficult to make one man-portable, it's the ammunition weight that's the problem. At 100 rounds per second, a common minigun cyclic RoF, you're firing away 1kg of ammunition (assuming ultra-lightweight rounds, like polymer-cased 5.56mm) per second. To get the same amount of sustained fire support as a current US Army automatic rifleman with his M249 and 600-800 ready rounds, you'd have to carry in excess of 50kg cartridges alone.
Let's make one thing clear: A minigun has absolutely no business being used where the primary weapon of most combatants is a handgun. Miniguns and handguns are on completely different levels of armament. In an infantry fire support role, the minigun would actually be used like a HMG and would thus not be "man-portable" in the normal sense it's used especially in RPGs. A minigun can only realistically be fired from around the hip with a heavy harness while standing up (which is, as I'm sure you realize, a great way to get killed fast in a battlefield) or from a tripod.
A 5.56x45mm - 7.62x51mm minigun loaded with gel rounds would kill people dead. There's a reason why less-lethal ammunition only really exists for shotguns and larger-bore weapons. Gel-rounds, as they are presented in SR, are completely unfeasible in any high-velocity rifle caliber weapon. Although you are correct that anyone left alive after the initial bursts with the minigun would absolutely flee in terror, only most people (excluding maniac dictators) would think that's not a very good way to deal with riots. And it'd be a moot point anyway, since in an anti-riot role it would still be mounted on a vehicle, or possibly on some other kind of heavy mount. |
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Aug 29 2005, 07:27 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Which is ironic, considering two of the weapons options in SR3 involve light-weight materials.
It helps if you bother to take the entire point in context. The part that comes after is kinda important.
To be honest, it strikes me as more of a "stand there and shoot" weapon. Even with the reduced weights I'm comming up with, you're still talking about a very large weapon that you require a harness for.
Hmm. Corrections noted.
Which is different from any other heavy weapon that is portable in SR and uses belts how? If it's that bad, use smaller bullets. You're basically just spraying an area anyway.
The point of firing it is "distract the enemy and make them wish you were dead" with the hopes your teammates keep you alive. Besides, I was using an oversimplification in my statements.
This sounds to me like a problem you have with SR ammunition, not a problem with miniguns.
Actually, I suspect the corporations would also use it as such, and possibly most SR nations. They can simply classify the riot as a terrorist action. |
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Aug 29 2005, 07:27 PM
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#45
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I am a native English speaker, and though Colt hasn't figured it out yet, it's damn wrong. While some debate still persists over the exact definition of carbine (though the most common and generally accepted definition is a shortened rifle, though still somewhat common is a fullsize rifle firing pistol ammunition), there really is no debate over the definition of submachine gun. |
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Aug 29 2005, 07:48 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
FN P90 is one example of an SMG chambering a 5.7 projectile, personally i disagree with the term ' that the SMG's are automatic weapons, which chamber pistol rounds. The reason is that it is not so easy to determine what a pistol round is. HK53 is a good example, i would always consider it, at least in game terms, because there are no carbines, as a SMG. As for going with math, i never said that the 9mm round as such produces more recoil than the 223.Rem., i said that a MP5 9mm produces more recoil than a G36 does with a 5.56. To be more specific, i was trying to make a statement about the reduction of accuracy due to the 'kicking up' of the weapon. This is what is the only thing of importance for the game. This is why IMO AR frames should be able to mount stocks. |
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Aug 29 2005, 08:20 PM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
FN Herstal itself calls the P90 a "submachine gun", and there is the FN Five-seveN pistol chambered for the same 5.7x28mm round. It is a submachine gun and is chambered for a pistol round. In this case, it clearly is very easy to determine.
As far as SR3 is concerned, assault rifle + shortened barrel + folding/telescope stock = carbine. You could say there are no "single action revolvers" in the game either, but that doesn't mean you have to go and design some sort of break-open shotgun to simulate a Colt Single Action Army revolver. The closest you can get to a HK53-like weapon, in performance, usage, etc., in SR (or in SR3, at least) is by slightly modifying an assault rifle, not a submachine gun.
Then I must say you have had a weird personal experience. In simple terms: Assume a submachine gun and an assault rifle of very similar design. They operate with the same principle (as is often true of SMGs and ARs, though not of the MP5 and the G36), they have the same kind of recoil compensation (or none at all), the same kind of furniture (stock and all), etc. Assume also that they are of the same weight (unlike in my example figures above, where the heavier weight of the M16A2 helps reduce the felt recoil). With these weapons of similar construction, the 5.56x45mm round will recoil about 3 times as energetically and with almost twice the impulse as the 9x19mm. This means that to have the same level of felt recoil as a 9x19mm SMG, the 5.56x45mm AR has to compensate 3 times as well for the energy of the recoil and twice as well for the impulse. Considering that, it is not at all unrealistic to simulate these weapons in a RPG so that a basic SMG has inherently better recoil compensation when fired from the shoulder than a basic AR. |
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Aug 29 2005, 08:26 PM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Heh, I thought it was righteously awesome how they made a big deal of saving her in Alien 2, but then just axed her in Alien 3. She got run over by the plot wagon. |
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Aug 29 2005, 08:54 PM
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#49
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I would agree. The P90 is without a doubt a submachine gun. While it fires a pistol round that is designed to be half way between a pistol round and a rifle round, it is still a pistol round, and it still fires pistol ammunition. The HK53 is, without a doubt, a carbine. While it is a sub compact carbine and is the size of a submachine gun, it fires rifle ammunition. There is no sane defintion of a carbine in the game mechanics, but that's not exactly our fault. With much hope, the new dev team will be less astonishingly dumb this time around. I went around looking for powder weights, but couldn't find any for NATO ammunition in order to calculate recoil for the MP5 and G36. That said, Austere's numbers are pretty good rouch estimates. The MP5 definitely recoils a lot less than anything similarly sized firing 5.56x45mm. The inability to mount stocks on rifles is not intended to imply an absense of stocks on rifles; it's an asinine contrivance intended to imply that rifles already had them and were benefitting from them, but simply recoiled more. Again, with much hope.. |
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Aug 29 2005, 09:12 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
well the only mistake in this argument is that the P90 was developed and produced before the FiveSeven, which is 5 years younger. So as a matter of fact you have a pistol here chambered for an SMG round... plus !
if you quote, please do it in a manner that doesn't turn the meaning around.
And there precisely is the problem, because SR3 rules dont' allow a stock, no matter the kind, for ARs.... Besides, we are off topic... if you want to discuss this any further, please open a thread for it... |
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