Do we need programs? - Dumpshock Forums

Do we need programs?, What if I don't own one?

JesterX View Member Profile	Sep 6 2005, 08:20 PM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: 12-May 05 From: The nearest UV host near you... Member No.: 7,390	What if I need to edit a file but I don't own the edit program? Can I still do it? (Providing that i'm not a technomancer) What is the minus? On what page can I find infos about this?

Dashifen View Member Profile	Sep 6 2005, 08:22 PM Post #2
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374	IIRC, You can perform any action without the necessary program by simply rolling your computer (or electronic warfare or hacking) skill. The program simply adds dice to your dice pool. Correct me if I'm wrong, however.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Sep 6 2005, 08:26 PM Post #3
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	so while a old hat may get along with only a basic line editor, the newbie is best served by a big texteditor package. thats not so say that the old hat cant get some fancy moves done with said package :P thats one of the funny things of sr computing. you dont have to be trained in individual software packages ;) maybe there is some benifit in AR/VR style apps after all :P

hahnsoo View Member Profile	Sep 6 2005, 08:26 PM Post #4
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014	If you don't have the program, you can't do the action that the program facilitates. A generous GM might let you whip up a rating 1 program using an Extended test (1 hour) based on the Software skill. We've house-ruled that Common Use programs are available at rating 1 in all pre-fab System OSes (Curse you Microdeck!). Of course, it would be fairly simple to find and pirate some low rating software out there... just steal a commlink and pirate away!

JesterX View Member Profile	Sep 6 2005, 09:14 PM Post #5
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: 12-May 05 From: The nearest UV host near you... Member No.: 7,390	Any reference in the BBB about this?

mintcar

Sep 6 2005, 10:21 PM

Post #6

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QUOTE (Synner)

Note that SR4 is not as restrictive as real life (IIRC) since it allows you to roll your Hacking skill as your dice pool to accomplish stuff on the Matrix (in AR and VR) - also note that in SR3 you rolled your Computer skill not your Intelligence. The true change is in dropping the x-factor of a Hacking Pool.

According to this quote you should be able to use your hacking skill only as a dice pool in the matrix. This thread Although some of the other things he said seemed to contradict this, so I didn´t think you could.

Programs have to do stuff for you because coding stuff on the fly is above any hacker, as Synner said:

QUOTE (Synner)

To give a specific example, when a contemporary hacker cracks the code protection on a just-released computer game, it isn't the hacker himself but the computer program he wrote to do it. No matter how skilled he is a programmer and hacker he would never be able to crack the code himself in real time without that tool/program (no matter how intelligent he is / how high his Logic attribute)

I´m going to have a hard time fitting the fact that you don´t have time to use your own logic attribute, with the fact that you can do without programs altogether.

(So my vote is with your suloution Hahnsoo)

JesterX View Member Profile	Sep 6 2005, 10:50 PM Post #7
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: 12-May 05 From: The nearest UV host near you... Member No.: 7,390	Synner, art thou there?

Phoniex View Member Profile	Sep 7 2005, 05:51 AM Post #8
Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769	The problems I have with requiring a program to even try to perform the matrix action are many. 1) that means that hackers.. well they need to be renamed again to crackers.. because thats all they are. 2) the hacking skill, has NOTHING to do with the actual process of hacking, because all the hacker actually is doing is changing settings on his program. to me it would make ALOT more sense if the program augmented the hackers skill, but it was the players knowledge and know-how that actually DID the hacking, in 2070 at least 3) This means that logic 1 hackers are just as good as logic 6 hackers, you intelligence does not matter just your skill does. So bring on the hacking aptitude skill 7 trolls, I mean think about that for a minute. 4) This is a attribute+skill system... except in the matrix. So once again hacking has to be special and different. Well, just an opinion.

mintcar View Member Profile	Sep 7 2005, 06:01 AM Post #9
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505	The logic here is that matrix actions happen extremely fast. You just don´t have time to make your choices real time, so you make programs in advance. It's the only way to justify the lack of attributes in the roll.

Phoniex View Member Profile	Sep 7 2005, 06:08 AM Post #10
Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769	I understand the logic mintcar, but to me that means that in general players should not hack. They should leave it up to agents or sprites, which is fine if you want to gloss over hacking in your game. But if i want to play a hacker, everything everyone has said so far is that my *character* can not actually hack. Which is one way of not having to deal with the matrix, i guess. Stupid question to any 4th edition playtester out there, did this problem come up?

mintcar

Sep 7 2005, 06:13 AM

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I agree with you Pheniex. In the end I told Synner this:

QUOTE

I suppose in light of these insights it may be the closest approximation. But it still stings in the eye that your innate logical capacity does not figure into hacking. If hacking is anything like in SR3, the player will feel like he´s there making logical choices. It will be hard to explain that this is all just an illusion. (Not the being there, everybody knows that´s an illusion. But the actual real time choices of the player are also illusory because they are made on the account of the program and not the character.)

If there was nothing more to hacking than pressing "execute" in Shadowrun, it may not have been a problem. But there is. There is room for innovative suloutions when hacking (in SR3, making assumptions here) and that can not be covered by skill alone. So you have to go into an uncomfortable line of thought that says the program does most of the things the player does (eccept die rolls, wich are shared with the character), and just gives the character a nice show as a representation.

...when he had explained hacking to me.

Phoniex View Member Profile	Sep 7 2005, 06:21 AM Post #12
Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769	And then when you bring the technoshamen into it, well everything is screwed up. Because it is all in their heads, I guess I just want hackers to be basically be technoshamen, without complex forms but with programs. But for technoshamen everyone has got to admit that it is the human brain doing the work. So why no logic roll there?

blakkie View Member Profile	Sep 7 2005, 06:23 AM Post #13
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263	But use of the Logic dice still does come up in the day-to-day of a "Hacker" even if the dice aren't used for every action he takes. You can avoid a lot of the situations, but at a definite cost. EDIT: I guess we've found the new "Why is Parachuting linked to Body?" for SR4.

mintcar View Member Profile	Sep 7 2005, 06:30 AM Post #14
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505	Well Pheniex, that´s the proof of how long they´re willing to take this notion about how you can´t do stuff in real time in the matrix. Technomancers have to build mental algorithms before hand that work like programs. As a side note, doesn´t threading speak for not allowing actions without programs to be preformed? Why would you use threading and risk fading and have to sustain it if you could just use your raw skill? (I do think you actually CAN though. You most defenitely could in SR3, and there´s still no definitive sign of the opposite in the rules)

blakkie

Sep 7 2005, 06:34 AM

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QUOTE (mintcar)

As a side note, doesn´t threading speak for not allowing actions without programs to be preformed? Why would you use threading and risk fading and have to sustain it if you could just use your raw skill?

It's the mysteries of the Resonance. *oooooo*
:shock:

mintcar View Member Profile	Sep 7 2005, 06:36 AM Post #16
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505	Seems that way. As far as I can tell, there´s a good chance treading can make you worse at preforming your task. :)

blakkie

Sep 7 2005, 06:44 AM

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QUOTE (mintcar @ Sep 7 2005, 12:36 AM)

Seems that way. As far as I can tell, there´s a good chance treading can make you worse at preforming your task. :)

When improving a Complex form you need 3 hits plus soaking that DV 3+ so you don't pick up a wound penalty to have it improve, and 2 hits to break even. The good news though is that if you only get 1 hit you don't Fade much, if at all, and can just drop it and try again. The prime use of Threading it would seem to be is for Complex forms you don't have at all.

Phoniex

Sep 7 2005, 06:46 AM

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QUOTE (mintcar)

Well Pheniex, that´s the proof of how long they´re willing to take this notion about how you can´t do stuff in real time in the matrix. Technomancers have to build mental algorithms before hand that work like programs.

As a side note, doesn´t threading speak for not allowing actions without programs to be preformed? Why would you use threading and risk fading and have to sustain it if you could just use your raw skill?

(I do think you actually CAN though. You most defenitely could in SR3, and there´s still no definitive sign of the opposite in the rules)

Best guess? If you did something similar to the sorcery rules with programs. Limit net hits to the rating of the program/complex form. Then you would still NEED to thread. But, my base point is that right now in 4th edition, AGIL is the ONLY stat that ever needs to be maxed. Logic is not needed, let alone maxed for hackers. Technomancers want high logic, but just for the living persona. Str is nice for unarmed folks, but hardly necessary and still your better off maxing AGIL. Willpower is no longer the stat for mages. I mean even the face does not have to max CHA.
/sigh

To me at least technomancers should be able to hack, realtime. I mean even if its using forms. Its still their brains! And if a form can be created in an action basically by threading. Why don't they use their logic on the hacking test? I mean they can compile a rating 1 program/form in a second, but they can not hack a computer real time? No, their form (which is their freaking brain working still) has to do it for them. At its base, this has to be logic driven. I mean logic HAS to be the horsepower technoshamen run on? I mean, I am open to other interpertations, and if its just a game balance thing I can understand. But the more i think about it, the more that at least for technomancers to work as described they should be rolling logic on a hacking test. To at least see if their brains can keep up.

Ranneko View Member Profile	Sep 7 2005, 06:52 AM Post #19
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984	Because it is still the form that is working, logic is used in threading the form, but once the form is being sustained, you are running the data through the form. Otherwise, where would the forms come in? Or would you not be using hacking at all, and just logic + complex form? I too agree, that no program should make it very hard if not impossible to perform the action, and some, especially an action like Edit, where you are going to have to make subtle changes to say a camera feed really have no way of being done except via a program.

blakkie View Member Profile	Sep 7 2005, 06:55 AM Post #20
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263	Acually threading uses Resonance + Software (at least that i what it says on page 234), which i do agree should have been Logic + Software since Resonance is also the size limit for the threaded complex form and also used to resist fading.

Phoniex

Sep 7 2005, 07:04 AM

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QUOTE (Ranneko)

I too agree, that no program should make it very hard if not impossible to perform the action, and some, especially an action like Edit, where you are going to have to make subtle changes to say a camera feed really have no way of being done except via a program.

The point is that the program/form is created by the brain of the technoshamen. But then in using that program/form, still only in the mind of the shamen and run by that same brain. You do not roll logic dice, except to make the program/form.
Because of this rule, you ignore all other 4th edition rules about being attribute+skill, and replace it with skill+program/form. I can understand not wanting to get complicated with attribute+skill+form/program. But i can not understand how a technoshamen can DO any kind of hacking without using his logic as the motor that runs the hack. I mean logic is the freaking system rating of the living persona, i believe. Which translates directly to processing power. So while a hacker is limited by his program, so he can not roll logic. The shamen is the exact opposite, his base brainpower *if you don't like logic, change it to reasonace* allows him to hack. But he can not use that same brainpower on a hacking test.. i mean *huh*?!? If its just the magic of reasonace, well then roll reasonace+skill+form/program for the shamen.

I don't want to seem argumentative, I am open to explanations, but so far I have not heard anything convincing :(

Ranneko View Member Profile	Sep 7 2005, 07:04 AM Post #22
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984	Right you are, Blakkie, misremembered that. Phoniex: It follows the way hacking works however. In skill + program equivalent. Hacking doesn't directly use system, thus nor does technomancer hacking directly use logic. I like the way that works as you can have script kiddie hackers. Which will suffer in hacker social circle as they don't know how to make their own programs, and have to buy them off of other people.

Phoniex

Sep 7 2005, 08:02 AM

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QUOTE (Ranneko @ Sep 7 2005, 07:04 AM)

Right you are, Blakkie, misremembered that.

Phoniex:

It follows the way hacking works however. In skill + program equivalent.

Hacking doesn't directly use system, thus nor does technomancer hacking directly use logic.

I like the way that works as you can have script kiddie hackers. Which will suffer in hacker social circle as they don't know how to make their own programs, and have to buy them off of other people.

Ok i will try to explain in another way. This is what has been explained to me, as why the rules work this way.

Hackers dont use logic on their tests. They just use skill and program rating. Its mainly the program that actually does the hacking. all the skill really does it optimize settings on the program. But there has to be a character contribution so, its hacking skill.

Now this next part is mine.

Technomancers however WORK differently, they have to because they don't have programs or commlinks. All they use is their brain/mind/reasonace. I think that in a hacking test either logic or reasonace should be added to skill+complex form. Because the TM are actually hacking in real time. Unlike hackers that are just running a program. Technomancer ™ have to work this way because everything is in thier heads. Even if you are using a complex form for a specific action. It is still the person's brain or reasonace that allows/drives that to happen. This is why either logic or reasonace should be included in the test. Because there are no settings on a complex form, you actually are hacking. You have to be because there is no other reason to have hacking skill on the book hacking+form test otherwise. This real time hacking is based on a attribute (logic or reasonace are the 2 choices). Since this hacking of a TM is based on a attribute, unlike regular hacking; the attribute should be added to this test.

Sorry if i am not being clear, its 4am here and I am running on 3 hours sleep. I just can't understand TM working without a base attribute to do everything off of. I'll buy taking logic away from hackers, because of sheer calculation difficulty and the speed of things in the matrix; even based on some facts from the real world. But TM have to work differently, the same arguements don't hold weight for them.

ahhh eddited to technomancers.. ahh i really do need some kind of sleep, I never meant to use technoshamen, just technomancers

This post has been edited by Phoniex: Sep 7 2005, 08:50 AM

hahnsoo View Member Profile	Sep 7 2005, 08:05 AM Post #24
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014	Erm, that would be TM, not TS. TechnoMancers, not TechnoShamans. Technoshaman is an obsolete term to describe a type of otaku (the other being Cyberadept). Technomancer is the the 2070 "hack with your brain using an as-of-yet-undetermined wireless link" dude.

Dashifen

Sep 7 2005, 03:18 PM

Post #25

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QUOTE (Phoniex)

... *snip* ... This is why either logic or reasonace should be included in the test. Because there are no settings on a complex form, you actually are hacking. ... *snip* ...

How do you know there's no settinsg for complex forms? Perhaps technomancer's forms are not static algorithms but more like variable equations where they alter the inputs to their algorithm (using their skill) to change the effect of the form on the matrix.

A complex form is not some mystical static entity online, represented by the Technomancer's ability to artificialy increase their rating using Threading. Instead, their variable, complex, and dymanic systems that help a technomancer's brain relate to the mass of information coming at it at any time.

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