According to this quote you should be able to use your hacking skill only as a dice pool in the matrix. This thread Although some of the other things he said seemed to contradict this, so I didn´t think you could.

Programs have to do stuff for you because coding stuff on the fly is above any hacker, as Synner said:

I´m going to have a hard time fitting the fact that you don´t have time to use your own logic attribute, with the fact that you can do without programs altogether.

(So my vote is with your suloution Hahnsoo)

...when he had explained hacking to me.

It's the mysteries of the Resonance. *oooooo*

When improving a Complex form you need 3 hits plus soaking that DV 3+ so you don't pick up a wound penalty to have it improve, and 2 hits to break even. The good news though is that if you only get 1 hit you don't Fade much, if at all, and can just drop it and try again. The prime use of Threading it would seem to be is for Complex forms you don't have at all.

Best guess? If you did something similar to the sorcery rules with programs. Limit net hits to the rating of the program/complex form. Then you would still NEED to thread. But, my base point is that right now in 4th edition, AGIL is the ONLY stat that ever needs to be maxed. Logic is not needed, let alone maxed for hackers. Technomancers want high logic, but just for the living persona. Str is nice for unarmed folks, but hardly necessary and still your better off maxing AGIL. Willpower is no longer the stat for mages. I mean even the face does not have to max CHA.
/sigh

To me at least technomancers should be able to hack, realtime. I mean even if its using forms. Its still their brains! And if a form can be created in an action basically by threading. Why don't they use their logic on the hacking test? I mean they can compile a rating 1 program/form in a second, but they can not hack a computer real time? No, their form (which is their freaking brain working still) has to do it for them. At its base, this has to be logic driven. I mean logic HAS to be the horsepower technoshamen run on? I mean, I am open to other interpertations, and if its just a game balance thing I can understand. But the more i think about it, the more that at least for technomancers to work as described they should be rolling logic on a hacking test. To at least see if their brains can keep up.

The point is that the program/form is created by the brain of the technoshamen. But then in using that program/form, still only in the mind of the shamen and run by that same brain. You do not roll logic dice, except to make the program/form.
Because of this rule, you ignore all other 4th edition rules about being attribute+skill, and replace it with skill+program/form. I can understand not wanting to get complicated with attribute+skill+form/program. But i can not understand how a technoshamen can DO any kind of hacking without using his logic as the motor that runs the hack. I mean logic is the freaking system rating of the living persona, i believe. Which translates directly to processing power. So while a hacker is limited by his program, so he can not roll logic. The shamen is the exact opposite, his base brainpower *if you don't like logic, change it to reasonace* allows him to hack. But he can not use that same brainpower on a hacking test.. i mean *huh*?!? If its just the magic of reasonace, well then roll reasonace+skill+form/program for the shamen.

I don't want to seem argumentative, I am open to explanations, but so far I have not heard anything convincing

Ok i will try to explain in another way. This is what has been explained to me, as why the rules work this way.

Hackers dont use logic on their tests. They just use skill and program rating. Its mainly the program that actually does the hacking. all the skill really does it optimize settings on the program. But there has to be a character contribution so, its hacking skill.

Now this next part is mine.

Technomancers however WORK differently, they have to because they don't have programs or commlinks. All they use is their brain/mind/reasonace. I think that in a hacking test either logic or reasonace should be added to skill+complex form. Because the TM are actually hacking in real time. Unlike hackers that are just running a program. Technomancer ™ have to work this way because everything is in thier heads. Even if you are using a complex form for a specific action. It is still the person's brain or reasonace that allows/drives that to happen. This is why either logic or reasonace should be included in the test. Because there are no settings on a complex form, you actually are hacking. You have to be because there is no other reason to have hacking skill on the book hacking+form test otherwise. This real time hacking is based on a attribute (logic or reasonace are the 2 choices). Since this hacking of a TM is based on a attribute, unlike regular hacking; the attribute should be added to this test.

Sorry if i am not being clear, its 4am here and I am running on 3 hours sleep. I just can't understand TM working without a base attribute to do everything off of. I'll buy taking logic away from hackers, because of sheer calculation difficulty and the speed of things in the matrix; even based on some facts from the real world. But TM have to work differently, the same arguements don't hold weight for them.



ahhh eddited to technomancers.. ahh i really do need some kind of sleep, I never meant to use technoshamen, just technomancers

How do you know there's no settinsg for complex forms? Perhaps technomancer's forms are not static algorithms but more like variable equations where they alter the inputs to their algorithm (using their skill) to change the effect of the form on the matrix.

A complex form is not some mystical static entity online, represented by the Technomancer's ability to artificialy increase their rating using Threading. Instead, their variable, complex, and dymanic systems that help a technomancer's brain relate to the mass of information coming at it at any time.