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Why Go Wireless?, Help with reasons why.

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Rotbart van Dain...

Sep 15 2005, 06:20 PM

Post #126

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QUOTE (blakkie)

You missed his meaning and pulled his text out of the context where he explains the meaning. The scanner can't determine that it is running in Hidden mode. The scanner doesn't analyze the data carried by the signal.

As they are treaded as Sniffer, actually, they can, so guess I didn't... even if they couldn't, it would just take an Agent running on the Scanner.
Hidden Nodes differ from normal ones that they don't advertise their presence, wich makes it quite simple to differ them from those.

QUOTE (blakkie)

Umm, only if they aren't no wireless devices, RFIDs, etc. Which as part of the SR game definition is quite rare.

So, this isn't even necessary... by the rules, a scanner could eventually pick out Hidden Nodes in the middle of downtown.

Nyxll

Sep 15 2005, 06:21 PM

Post #127

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QUOTE (Fox1)

I'm sensing a great did of "I want it to work, let's find something to justify it" from the pro-wireless crowd here.

Frankly the decking/hacking rules in every edition of SR were never realistic. They never made sense. They were never a good model of reality.

There are only two points that matter:

1. Does the lack of realism bother you?

2. Are the rule fun?

Point one was always answered 'yes' by me, but there were outweighed by point #2 (at least with the VR 2.0 rules). It was fun, it fit the genre, things were good.

Wireless as present so far (I want my book) blows on point 1. No problem if point #2 comes through. Anyone have thoughts on that aspect of the question?

Why bothers me is the blanket approach. Someone liked this idea so he decided to bash everyone over the head with it and go crazy like they do with every cursed metaplot they dredge up. The rules are too short sighted. I will agree that there are many applications for wireless. I love the technology, but there are places where it doesn't belong. Instead of embracing that fact, they still persist in going overboard with it till they spoil it. They are like cooks with salt. A little makes it better, alot ruins it. I guess some people either like alot of salt, or are just starving so they will worry about taste later.

I think that it would not be fun for me to use them. Yes I understand that it is my prerogative to omit them, the glaring holes and lack of understanding by the people that wrote them makes it unpalatable. If fanpro made up some kind of new technology based on science and something that didn't exist ... I could accept that with less difficulty. Also if someone could explain things better with an example of technology or science based on fact and actual scientific laws I could accept it.

Spookymonster

Sep 15 2005, 06:22 PM

Post #128

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

No, a Pilot with EW would do fine, too. ;)
Assuming it would work, this kind of brute force attack usually is something to use on remote, isolated and small compounds.

C'mon now... let's not get ridiculous. That's going to be the exception, not the rule. Most places are going to have human operators, even if it's just a college kid doing 3rd shift for minimum wage. And frankly, if you're so cheap that you'd skimp on security staff just to cut costs, your security probably isn't going to pose much of a challenge anyway ;).

QUOTE

As Jammers are highly illegal, it would more likely let the shit hit the fan.
It might work with Commlinks, but too many sudden false positives on an area are more likely to be reported a a big real positive.
In any case, you just killed the moment of surprise.

Not necessarily; just because they're expecting something doesn't mean they'll suspect everything. Want a good example? Watch the remake of Ocean's Eleven (yeah, the setup is crap, but the actual heist is a thing of beauty). Make them expect elephants, and they'll never notice the mice...

Fox1

Sep 15 2005, 06:26 PM

Post #129

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QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)

And the wireless matrix allows for the hacker/technomancer to play a greater part in the team. Instead of allways sitting back huddled in some room.

For my part, I'm a big fan of the huddled decker. Bring them into the team doesn't have any appeal to me as of yet.

Perhaps after I read the fiction.

Shadow_Prophet

Sep 15 2005, 06:29 PM

Post #130

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

QUOTE (blakkie)

You missed his meaning and pulled his text out of the context where he explains the meaning. The scanner can't determine that it is running in Hidden mode. The scanner doesn't analyze the data carried by the signal.

As they are treaded as Sniffer, actually, they can, so guess I didn't... even if they couldn't, it would just take an Agent running on the Scanner.
Hidden Nodes differ from normal ones that they don't advertise their presence, wich makes it quite simple to differ them from those.

QUOTE (blakkie)

Umm, only if they aren't no wireless devices, RFIDs, etc. Which as part of the SR game definition is quite rare.

So, this isn't even necessary... by the rules, a scanner could eventually pick out Hidden Nodes in the middle of downtown.

You would first need the scanner to find the signal. Then you would need a rather intelligent agent, or a decent security hacker to investigate -every- -single- wireless signal to see if its a hidden node.

And no the scanner itseslf can not pick out hidden nodes in the middle of downtown. It can pick out wireless signals and intercept data. Kinda like a radio. You can pick up all the frequencies, but untill you go to a certain one you won't know what it is. And even then you have to decrypt it.

Nyxll

Sep 15 2005, 06:32 PM

Post #131

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QUOTE (Fox1)

QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 15 2005, 01:00 PM)

And the wireless matrix allows for the hacker/technomancer to play a greater part in the team. Instead of allways sitting back huddled in some room.

For my part, I'm a big fan of the huddled decker. Bring them into the team doesn't have any appeal to me as of yet.

Perhaps after I read the fiction.

I have never had a decker stuck in the back room. They have always come on the job. We also never separated the actions for matrix/rigging/astral/ and normal. They were always integral to both decking and as an electronics expert cracking maglocks, etc.

Shadow_Prophet

Sep 15 2005, 06:32 PM

Post #132

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QUOTE (Fox1)

QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 15 2005, 01:00 PM)

And the wireless matrix allows for the hacker/technomancer to play a greater part in the team. Instead of allways sitting back huddled in some room.

For my part, I'm a big fan of the huddled decker. Bring them into the team doesn't have any appeal to me as of yet.

Perhaps after I read the fiction.

meh. For the most part, this meant deckers became more of npc's than pc's. And I never liked that. And even when you brought the decker along or had him doing overwatch, you had to shift back and forth and keep all the timeing right and the system checks at the same time. And to me, while the decker always has and will be my favorite concept, that was a turn off.

As for Nyxll. Once again assuming technology in 65 years will be the same as now.

Rotbart van Dain...

Sep 15 2005, 06:34 PM

Post #133

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QUOTE (Spookymonster)

Not necessarily; just because they're expecting something doesn't mean they'll suspect everything.

True, the problem is just finding the balance between 'setting them up' and setting them off'. ;)

QUOTE (Lebo77)

Does running a PAN THEORETICLY pose a risk? Perhaps. But a reasonable in-game justification can be made for makeing it extremely difficult to detect hidden PANs.

Lets say 'very unlikely'... it is an invisible risk, though, thus hardly to control when running.
Sometimes worth it, sometimes not.

QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)

You would first need the scanner to find the signal. Then you would need a rather intelligent agent, or a decent security hacker to investigate -every- -single- wireless signal to see if its a hidden node.

No. As stated, this difference is automatic.

Nyxll View Member Profile	Sep 15 2005, 06:37 PM Post #134
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455	Lebo -- a few questions since things are more scientifically based 1 What about susceptability to jamming?? 2 can you see a possibity for any methods of detection? 3 How large is the frequecy variance with rotating frequencies? 4 If there are 4 or 5 devices on, would you see a signature?

Shadow_Prophet

Sep 15 2005, 06:38 PM

Post #135

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)

You would first need the scanner to find the signal. Then you would need a rather intelligent agent, or a decent security hacker to investigate -every- -single- wireless signal to see if its a hidden node.

No. As stated, this difference is automatic.

I'm glad you're able to state that, I'd be much apreciated on where it says it tells you what type of signal it is. It says it can pick up on all those different types of signals and measure their strength and pinpoint their location. It does not say it can determine what type of signal it is.

Nyxll

Sep 15 2005, 06:38 PM

Post #136

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QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)

As for Nyxll. Once again assuming technology in 65 years will be the same as now.

No, I am assuming that physics are the same then as now. Move on.

Rotbart van Dain...

Sep 15 2005, 06:44 PM

Post #137

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QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)

It says it can pick up on all those different types of signals and measure their strength and pinpoint their location. It does not say it can determine what type of signal it is.

QUOTE (SR4 p. 225)

Locating a particular active or passive wireless node within range (or all of them, for that matter) takes only a Free Action, no test required.

Signals that are not advertising their presence tend to fall out of place when picked up...

blakkie

Sep 15 2005, 06:57 PM

Post #138

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)

It says it can pick up on all those different types of signals and measure their strength and pinpoint their location. It does not say it can determine what type of signal it is.

QUOTE (SR4 p. 225)

Locating a particular active or passive wireless node within range (or all of them, for that matter) takes only a Free Action, no test required.

Signals that are not advertising their presence tend to fall out of place when picked up...

But it does not determine who or what you are, which is why you spoof to look like an RFID or something.

P.S. Are you arguing "real world" here, or game world? Because that Scanner is "real world" innane.

Rotbart van Dain...

Sep 15 2005, 06:59 PM

Post #139

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QUOTE (blakkie)

Are you arguing "real world" here, or game world? Because that Scanner is "real world" innane.

Uhm, no? Both Security and Sensor chapters list Radio Signal Scanner as a security measure.

blakkie

Sep 15 2005, 07:02 PM

Post #140

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

Uhm, no? Both Security and Sensor chapters list Radio Signal Scanner as a security measure.

??? Exactly who and what is this responding to? Me? Because it seems to have left the topic reservation?

Rotbart van Dain...

Sep 15 2005, 07:06 PM

Post #141

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Now? ;)

QUOTE (blakkie)

But it does not determine who or what you are, which is why you spoof to look like an RFID or something.

No, RFIDs would 'advertise', too.

Shadow_Prophet

Sep 15 2005, 07:07 PM

Post #142

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QUOTE (Nyxll)

QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 15 2005, 01:32 PM)

As for Nyxll. Once again assuming technology in 65 years will be the same as now.

No, I am assuming that physics are the same then as now. Move on.

Oh? So thats why wireless wouldn't be secure in 65 years. Physics.

The main concern with wireless is the fact that if you're withing broadcast range, theoreticaly you could get on the network.

Which certainly hasn't changed in sr4. Nor has anyone implied it has. Wireless has gotten more secure in the sr4 world due to IC, and better encryption. And the idea that the encryption isn't better or that its worse because a hacker can bypass it is absurd. The current best encryption in the world was beaten by hackers the first time in a few months, and the second time in weeks. Where there is a will there's a way.

Shadow_Prophet

Sep 15 2005, 07:09 PM

Post #143

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

Now? ;)

QUOTE (blakkie)

But it does not determine who or what you are, which is why you spoof to look like an RFID or something.

No, RFIDs would 'advertise', too.

No where in the scanners description or the sniffer program does it say that it can determine weather it is actively advertising its access ID and allowing people to access it network wise.

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Sep 15 2005, 07:11 PM Post #144
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	No, as this is automatic for any Commlink or the like... geee.

blakkie

Sep 15 2005, 07:14 PM

Post #145

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

QUOTE (blakkie)

Are you arguing "real world" here, or game world? Because that Scanner is "real world" innane.

Uhm, no? Both Security and Sensor chapters list Radio Signal Scanner as a security measure.

"No" isn't an available answer. :P But i guess by referencing you mean you are now switched to "game world". I just wanted to clarify that.

Shadow_Prophet

Sep 15 2005, 07:16 PM

Post #146

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

No, as this is automatic for any Commlink or the like... geee.

What is? Yes the commlink can make a determination of what type of signal it is. The Commlink is a small computer. A scanner scan's for radio signals and triangulates their location and strength and if you have the ability intercept traffic. But the scanner in and of itself is not intelligent enough to determine what type of signal its looking at.

blakkie

Sep 15 2005, 07:18 PM

Post #147

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

QUOTE (blakkie)

You missed his meaning and pulled his text out of the context where he explains the meaning. The scanner can't determine that it is running in Hidden mode. The scanner doesn't analyze the data carried by the signal.

As they are treaded as Sniffer, actually, they can, so guess I didn't... even if they couldn't, it would just take an Agent running on the Scanner.
Hidden Nodes differ from normal ones that they don't advertise their presence, wich makes it quite simple to differ them from those.

QUOTE (blakkie)

Umm, only if they aren't no wireless devices, RFIDs, etc. Which as part of the SR game definition is quite rare.

So, this isn't even necessary... by the rules, a scanner could eventually pick out Hidden Nodes in the middle of downtown.

Sorry, i should have said they can't --automatically-- analyse the data. There are more rolls to happen.

Lord Ben View Member Profile	Sep 15 2005, 07:20 PM Post #148
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659	I think there is far too much worrying going on in this thread. If I had the choice between breaking into a place guarded by dogs with biomonitors connected to alarms or a place with an intelligent scanner searching for hidden PAN's I'd pick the one searching for PAN's. Runs never were easy, this just gives the DM something extra to throw at the parties. Could there be signal searchers under ever floor tile waiting for a party to get within 3m of them? Sure, I guess. Just like every tile could be pressure sensitive connected to land mines too I guess.

Nyxll

Sep 15 2005, 07:24 PM

Post #149

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QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 15 2005, 02:07 PM)

QUOTE (Nyxll @ Sep 15 2005, 01:38 PM)

QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 15 2005, 01:32 PM)

As for Nyxll. Once again assuming technology in 65 years will be the same as now.

No, I am assuming that physics are the same then as now. Move on.

Oh? So thats why wireless wouldn't be secure in 65 years. Physics.

The main concern with wireless is the fact that if you're withing broadcast range, theoreticaly you could get on the network.

Which certainly hasn't changed in sr4. Nor has anyone implied it has. Wireless has gotten more secure in the sr4 world due to IC, and better encryption. And the idea that the encryption isn't better or that its worse because a hacker can bypass it is absurd. The current best encryption in the world was beaten by hackers the first time in a few months, and the second time in weeks. Where there is a will there's a way.

We are arguing several points. 1, that you say there will be no wires in 64 years because the game says wireless is better ... I am saying it cannot be better if both technologies continue to advance because the underlying laws do not allow it, and that is an oversight.

advances in encryption and hacking is a chicken and egg scenario. Encryption gets better because hackers crack it ... hackers get better because encrpytion gets better. Sure encryption will get better, but so will the hackers that work to defeat it. The technology will get more bulletproof and the hackers will find better bullets.

But we were not talking about cracking encryption... we were talking about detection, and penetrating a network. there are multiple layers of hardware and software in a network. At least one of which at any given time will have a hole. That is the nature of development.

Nyxll

Sep 15 2005, 07:30 PM

Post #150

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QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Sep 15 2005, 02:20 PM)

I think there is far too much worrying going on in this thread. If I had the choice between breaking into a place guarded by dogs with biomonitors connected to alarms or a place with an intelligent scanner searching for hidden PAN's I'd pick the one searching for PAN's.

Runs never were easy, this just gives the DM something extra to throw at the parties. Could there be signal searchers under ever floor tile waiting for a party to get within 3m of them? Sure, I guess. Just like every tile could be pressure sensitive connected to land mines too I guess.

That is a little extreme ... but if you were going with pressure plates, they should trigger an RFID challenge/response. If an invalid response or no response is returned then a warning should be triggered. Then the decker does a check with the cameras, if there is a problem, then they detonate the area.

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