 Why Go Wireless?, Help with reasons why. |
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 Sep 15 2005, 07:49 AM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 187 Joined: 30-April 04 Member No.: 6,294  |
How come they didn't go down? |
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Sep 15 2005, 08:26 AM
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#77
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Because Lofwyr had a secret Matrix killswitch that isolated all of Saeder-Krupp's assets from the rest of the grid. It's in the prologue of System Failure. He knew "something" was coming, although the details at the time was sketchy, so with that forewarning he prepared his empire for the hit. |
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Sep 15 2005, 10:44 AM
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#78
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
If you got a Camera incorporated, which is basic for a Commlink, it work with Shades, too.
Which is not quite accurate. First, your PAN is active even in Hidden mode - as it tranfers data, there is still an active broadcast running... in the best case just 3 meters wide, but running nonetheless: You are detectable, though it takes some time and with much luck, will never happen. Second, if they talk about Modes, they do it capitalized and in the full term - the sentence would end with 'Active Mode'.
Now guess what an automated Security Scanner does. ;) Sensors don't need no additional care.
That makes the hell of a sense, as being good citizens they should not only not use different commlinks, but especially not run the other one in Hidden Mode - do they have to hide something? ;) |
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Sep 15 2005, 12:02 PM
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#79
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 17-August 05 From: Canterbury Member No.: 7,564 |
If there is wireless communication going from me to my team mates, and back again, then in real terms we can't be hidden. Ok it might be massively encrypted, but there's a signal there. Even if the signal is only supposed to have a range of a few metres, there must still be some signal travelling further than that which can be picked up. If an area is expecting zero wireless activity, and spots weak encrypted signals, that's surely got to set off some alarm (assuming a wired sensor looking out for this)? |
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Sep 15 2005, 12:19 PM
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#80
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 17-August 05 From: Canterbury Member No.: 7,564 |
Let's the badguys eject your clip. If there's a standard eject clip command, then a hacker can broadcast hacking instructions, can possibly gain access without receiving any confirmation back, and send an eject signal. So they don't even need to be in your 3m range.
Badguy fools your team into thinking you're dead, they panic, they do something stupid.
Badguy throws a gas grenade, and turns off your air tank.
And a badguy turns them off again.
I'm blind!!!!! Where's that badguy gone?
Shouted to team mates: Urrrg.. I can taste (^&**^&$ who's fucking with my taste booster?? Badguy: *bang*
Puppet on a string.. turns around and shoots his own side.. actually.. I SO want to do that to the bad guys!!! |
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Sep 15 2005, 12:54 PM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
In order to eject clips and see what others see, etc .... you would need to crack the encryption. Which is a whole new bunch of bananas since cyberware has internal routers and firewalls, but anyone thought about cyberware viruses or expoits? There are bugs and holes in systems, even cisco routers. It would be really nasty of a corp to broadcast smartlink exploits and viruses. For instance Ares knows about a software exploit or puts one in for smartlinks, but makes sure that the hole is patched for their security. It could put a kink in a runner's day. Or even an exploit for some of the ares predators, or alphas. All of a sudden they will not fire on ares soil. Or just as much fun, initiate a firmware upgrade for the runner that has his/her pan on, even in passive mode.... can you say oops. |
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Sep 15 2005, 01:06 PM
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#82
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 17-August 05 From: Canterbury Member No.: 7,564 |
Accepted.. however I'm theorising on the possible, regardless of difficulty. The encryption could have been cracked by a sensor under the floor that's in range of the PAN .. and then an emitter sends out bursts of commands to do.. whatever. Or given enough time, an emitter could send out a disable command trying encryption keys at random. How fast could an emitter designed for this purpose do it? A brute force attack, I know, but how long would it take 1 emitter to be successful? How long for 10 emitters? 50? 100? 1000? For an initial outlay for the hardware, which might be expensive, you save on man-power, which must be cost effective in the long run? Damn.. why am I breaking off into economics..
I know I'd put a back door into any device I made :) Rule of thumb, don't use wireless hardware from company X when doing a run against company X. |
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Sep 15 2005, 01:12 PM
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#83
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Rule of thumb:
As any device has a System and a Firewall Program - replace them. Then let someone with a good Response install Encryption and Databombs in the highest available Rating... |
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Sep 15 2005, 01:20 PM
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#84
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Rotbart: Indeed.
Also, remember that the job of a GM isn't necessarily to follow the rules to the letter of the law, but rather to create an enjoyable experience for the players and for the GM. Thus, if you don't like the idea of wireless hidden PANs being easily detectable, don't detect them. I pretty much fully intend on making mesh networks undetectable if commlinks are in hidden mode. Only when extended signals are sent (i.e. from the infiltration team to their rigger backup outside) could they be detected. Also, I suspect that any building with roving guards would have those guards using wireless transmissions to keep in touch with each other and, thus, the infiltrators signals may be hidden with in the noise of the surrounding building's wireless transmissions. When the employee lounge has 4-5 wireless appliances (coffee machine, refridgerator, microwave, toaster, etc.) I don't see it as that impossible for a security scanner to be overwhelmed by the plethora of wireless signals within a building and not find the packets being transmitted by the team. I agree with the above concerns if you're infiltrating, for example, S-K world headquarters in Essen, but for smaller corps or AAA subsidiaries I don't think it's worth the agravation to hack the team all the time. It'll only create a bad feeling among the players (who thing you're exploiting the rules) and probably resulting in a game-killing problem faster than you can say dumpshock. YMMV. :cyber: |
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Sep 15 2005, 01:32 PM
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#85
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Here's a quick scenario......
The runners having broken into a high-security corporate site ( one that keeps a corp decker on duty at all times ). The lab computers are kept wired for security reasons and accessable from secure locations only. The security system, including the maglocks and automated defenses, accessable only from the security office. The site is also set up for wireless with commlink repeaters and scanners set up through the building. The runners break in at night when the halls and lab are supposedly empty. 1) If a wireless cybered passes near one of those commlink repeaters wouldn't it set off an alert of unauthorized commlink activity? ( Cyberware is SR4 seems to violate the concept of "Maintain radio silence" ) 2) Once detected couldn't the on-site decker hack into the cybered character's cyberware once he came close enough to one of those commlink repeaters by hacking directly into the cyberware and skipping the commlink? 3) Couldn't the corp set up those commlinks to emit a jamming signal, which would disable the cyberware that needs commlink communication in order to function like smartlinks? Or does skinlink prevent this? 4) Now lets pretend the corp went all out with this site, and hired a technomancer for site protection. Could the technomancer create a sprite and have it "possess" a runner's cyberware? 5) For the lab systems, they can only be accessed by jackpoint. Does the commlink come with the backwards-compatible technology to link up with that jackpoint. If not is the datajack still available by SR4 rules? Perhaps they could connect a commlink to the jackpoint it. But wouldn't that create a massive security alert do to unauthorized commlink activity in a secure location? |
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Sep 15 2005, 01:32 PM
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#86
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Security Scanners in every room indeed would be rather the exceptions than the rule... reserved for high security areas.
The use of Radio Discipline on the other hand is not outdated, either. ;) Turning off those wireless transmitters in cyberware is a Free Action, thanks do DNI. Commlinks are fully able to use hardwired systems, too - internal ones might need a Datajack, though. |
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Sep 15 2005, 01:54 PM
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#87
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 17-August 05 From: Canterbury Member No.: 7,564 |
Hmm.. another question..
If my PAN has a radius of only a few metres to send/receive stuff, how can I see AROs that are further away than that? And can I set my PAN to only 'see' AROs without being fully interactive - i.e. turning off any 'send' so I can't be hacked at all? I'm thinking that hidden mode isn't quite the same as this.. could be wrong.. |
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Sep 15 2005, 01:58 PM
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#88
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
All my judgements based on how I will run my games. YMMV.
I'm guessing you mean wireless cybered character? Either way, I would say no. There's enough wireless gear and cyberware that the repeater would be inundated with wireless signals from the lights, fire alram pulls, hell, the walls could have wireless information beeming location of studs, pipes and wires for renovation or demolition purposes. Thus, the repeaters would pick up the signal but I don't feel they'd be able to determine authorized from unauthorized.
Yes, but to do that they'd have to isolate the signal of the cyberware from all of the aforementioned devices. Plus, I'd argue that cyberware has only an admin access level, thus adding 6 to the threshold of the test. If the team is in motion, I'd also rule that the hacker would need to restart the test if the target left the range of one commlink and enter the range of another. Similar to trying to hack a vehicle from a street corner. Chances are the vehicles are going to move out of your range too quickly for one to hack. But, if you're hacking from a traffic light, you've strategically placed yourself to succeed. Extending this analogy back to the example at hand, if the security system used commlinks in say elevators or other areas of a building where a person must remain for a certain amount of time, then there might be a chance to hack some cyberware.
No. They'd risk jamming their own signals at the same time. Even directional jamming by a corp would probaby be kept to a minimum. You might ask why a corp cares about their wireless signals, but if that handy fire elemental lights a lab on fire but they've jammed the wireless signal from the fire-alarms, then they could lose a lot of work to the fire. Or, for a less magical concept, if their smartlinked security forces are transmitting gun camera pictures of the runners back to the security center, area jamming and -- potentially -- directional jamming would mean this may not work.
No, but they could watermark it so that they could find the runner again later. As for possessing, I don't remember sprites havingthat sort of capability.
I'd say the commlink can use the jackpoints, but the datajack is still available by SR4 and required to run full VR in the matrix. This, however, would create quite a stir, especially if the hacker's stealth program rating isn't too high, as the corp would now be able to detect an assault on their grid. They've done away with the security sheaf as it was in SR3 and left things to be more free, but there's still no reason why the intrusion would be noticed and IC and hackers dispatched to deal with the problem. |
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Sep 15 2005, 02:00 PM
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#89
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
ARO's need Interaction of the Commlink, which can Braodcast more than a few meters.
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Sep 15 2005, 02:01 PM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
This has gotten far too funy. Rotbart, the example i was working off of said he turned off ALL wireless. Thus he'd still need cabeling. Now on to Nyxll. Well its good you work in the IT field. I find it amusing however that you will ignore why fiberoptic cable is not used to comprise our networks now. But you won't ignore that in 2005 our wireless capabilities are a little less than optimal. Interesting. You'll give them less than 24 years to come up with better fiber and wire the world with it, but you won't give them 65 years to come up with better wireless technology. If you actualy are a IT person then you know the rate at which technology is advancing. And apparently in shadowrun its advancing just as fast if not faster. But you completely ignore that repeatedly. Honestly stop and think for one moment here. Can our current wireless, or even wired networks transmit full simsense or anything close? Nope. But its believeable based off our current technology to do that in the future. :please: Someone I believe said they interprated the one phrase to mean 'some corpse exclusively use wired networks with no wireless access.' Thats nice, you can add words into any of the text to make anything sound differently or be interprated differently. So I'll somewhat conceed the point to you that everythings open to interpratation. You have your's I have mine. Oh back to Rotbart for a moment...
Since we're making so many comparisons to real life lets compare it to current real life. Hey guy has two cellphones, ones turned to silent mode, his personal cellphone, ones on ring, his work phone. I don't see why this might not happen in 2070. Corps certainly don't like you abusing company assets. Not to mention you may not like some of the features of your work commlink. You think Richard Villers uses only one commlink? Remember hidden mode is frowned upon but for the most part it is not illegal. Granted he may not be allowed to enter the top secret area of the company but just walking around his office in hidden mode he probably wouldn't be bothered by security. Secondly lets use Nyxll's comparison of rl wireless to shadowrun's because we all know how good that comparison is. If a wireless signal comes into one of our current networks, the network does not call security. That would be insane considering the number of wireless signals that move around through our society every day, from bluetooth, to phones, to wireless enabled pda's and laptops. Also lets look at shadowrun. Signal 3, 400m. You can get that on a commlink. So you're telling me if i walk within 400m of the edge of their network, they're going to send a sec team after me and take me out? Now we're livinv in reality. Oh oh lets go one step better. Lets increase our signal rating on our comlink to 6 (which is quite legal) lets see how far away we can get now. 10km. So if I were to walk within 10km of this places security network in hidden mode security at the very least would be alerted to my presance on ...well somewhere. And I'll note, the searching for wireless nodes, does not tell you their physical location. It tells you theres a wireless node there. I won't even go and mention Technomancers and all this. |
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Sep 15 2005, 02:03 PM
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#91
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
If the arrow's signal strength can push its information out to your commlink, then it can send to you and you'd see it, you just could send back to it and make it go away. Makes for an interesting spam zone when the spam is coming at you from a blimp or some other distant transmitter. Signal 3 and lower may not be able to stop the spam right away :vegm:
I think you're hitting on hidden or passive mode for a commlink. In both of those modes access from the rest of the world into your PAN is more controlled than in active mode.
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Sep 15 2005, 02:05 PM
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#92
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
So what? Shades and Camera can be wired/skinlinked to commlink. Commlink runs Mapsoft. Overlay of Map complete without any wireless interaction. ;)
Your cell phone broadcasts your social security number, drivers licence, etc on demand? A Commlink is much more than a cell phone, and people using more than one of them are not only not normal, but outright unusual, not to say suspicious if one of them is Hidden.
If you would manage to penetrate their wireless-shielding (paint, walls, etc), quite sure they would.
After a Track, it is knows to 50m. |
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Sep 15 2005, 02:16 PM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Becase we all know we're going to be taping our comlinks to our bodies. Secondly, yes mapsoft is realy going to have the internal maps of a facility ;) Yes you can get around the city without being wireless that way, but i highly doubt a corp is going to put floormaps of their building out there for all the public to see :P |
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Sep 15 2005, 02:24 PM
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#94
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 17-August 05 From: Canterbury Member No.: 7,564 |
But I don't want 'more controlled access' as in real terms that means I am screwed if there's someone out there good enough. Do the rules specifically provide a state in which my commlink can receive signals, but can not send any signal back at all, regardless of how hard someone is trying to hack in? I accept that a commlink could be hacked and sent some damaging instructions without ever sending any outward replies, but am willing to accept that as so difficult it's worth the risk. |
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Sep 15 2005, 02:27 PM
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#95
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That is actually quite usual, given the way Commlinks are used... well, maybe not the 'tape' part, as clothes are designed to incorporate comlinks. ;)
In the runs I have seen, it was SOP to buy/steal the maps of relevant places in advance. |
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Sep 15 2005, 02:34 PM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Well first, clothes are designed to incorperate them yes, but considering your average Jo in 2070 isn't going to be worried about being hacked by a security hacker, i doubt that means up against your skin. It'll mean in easy reach, high on the torso so you can jack into it easier. Most people are going to go the completely wireless route with imagelinked sunglasses, cybereyes, or contact lenses. And for the second part I don't believe I'm familiar with the abrivation SOP? |
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Sep 15 2005, 02:37 PM
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#97
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
As the EM field of the body extends some cm, it wouldn't have to be real skin contact.
SOP means standart operation procedure. |
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Sep 15 2005, 02:52 PM
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#98
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
Well, for Shadowrunners, you are assuming that the are going to go in all Spec Ops, bristeling with weapons and armor. Some runs actually require someone to go in undercover (individually or the whole group.)
A good example of both going in with guns blazing and subtle is Firefly. Most is guns blazing, but there is one episode where they sneak into a hospital. Now, which is subtle: going in with glasses that have wires pouring out or glasses with no wires? |
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Sep 15 2005, 02:57 PM
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#99
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
However thats not how skinlink works. The name itself implies its need for skin contact. Ah Standard Operating Procedure. And ok I'll give you that. |
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Sep 15 2005, 03:05 PM
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#100
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
thing is that wireless is inherently less secure then wired for the simple reason that as long as your inside the broadcast range your connected to the network.
with cables you have to get physical access to a connection point before your within the network. still, i do belive that wireless for low security areas have a use. thing is, whats realy low security for a corp? even internal mail can be high sec (alltho then i would deploy connection encryption so that even if they picked up the signal they would have to crack it before they could read it). problem realy is that SR encryption stinks when it comes to real security. why? it can be broken on the fly by a single person. this alone can be enough for some security people to back way off for even low security functions. thing is that SR have to balance between belivability and playability, and when it comes to computer security, playability have to come first. a belivable computer security system will decryption test counting months, not seconds. this is allso why so few good computer crime movies have been made, its damned boring. nothing happens for days on end. so basicly, for SR wireless to be belivable one will have to drop the old IT security mantra: paranoia isnt a illness, its a job requirement. |
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