Well, no, not really - I mean, from my understanding, Devil Rats have a soul - but you don't see us lobbying for their rights, do you?

Assuming that 'soul' or 'not-soul' is the basis for a being's rights is about as viable as assuming that 'Y-chromasome' or 'not-Y-chromasome' is the basis for a being's rights. Treat a being with as much respect as you have to to avoid being disadvantaged by it; any more is a waste of your time and its.

Hot Wheels, it sould like what ya offer is another version of suicide. Personally, I think suicide's the worst option available. If ya can keep someone alive long enough, they change. How many have been suicidal and instead of some bug spirit offering 'em "painless peace" some councillor, friend or even hostage negotiator have talked 'em down enough that they chose to get better? I argue that the suicidal are not competant to make a responsible choice. Kinda like those with Alzheimers disease end up giving the state or a family menber power of attourney over their major decisions. All to make sure they don't harm themselves. Now, before anyone says, "What gives you the right to take away one's freedom of choice," I abhor the idea of freedom restricted. However, in a case by case situation, sometimes the best decision's not one ya like. When someone's gonna kill themselves, however, that choice removes any future choices and has effects on others around them over which they have no choice. So, their inability to see beyond the here and now the effects that their choice has gives me the right.

Now, say some bug shaman comes along...we'll even say it's Mantis. Say, the person's almost despaired. Not quite, but almost. Mantis's shaman says, "Hey, if ya lemme displace yer soul with a spirit, you'll be free. No more pain, no more suffering. The spirit'll even have yer memories. Kinda a new life! C'mon, ya know ya wanna. Wouldn't everyone be better off if they didn't have to worry about ya?" This ain't euthenasia, this is called taking advantage of the incompetant.

I don't deny the possibility of Mantids being able to fit into society and their potential right for freedom from persecution.
What I do say, though, is that my only encounter with one left a good friend of mine dead and nearly left me the same way.
What I also say is that I have never personally met anyone who has had an encounter with a Mantid that didn't go similarly. And some of my friends are (and in some unfortunate cases, were) in positions to encounter Mantids on a decently regular basis, and rarely with my friends on an aggressive footing at first.

~J

You may have interacted with mantids and never known it. After all how many people would say the same thing about orks, claiming they are all brutes because of a few gang attacks but never know they have interacted with orks that can pass for human on a daily basis. Would you advocate hunting down all orks just because of a few unsociable individuals? Of course not.

The parallel doesn't hold.

Orks function, in terms of biology, like every other metahuman. A few anti-social individuals notwithstanding.

Mantids do not. They assume hosts, willing or not. The entire species follows the same path, merging with hosts and may very well share a uniform purpose that we don't fathom, support or endorse.

I suppose I wouldn't hold mantids in any particular disregard if not for the whole "willing or not" aspect of their behavior.

-Siege

Maybe I have, but Rusty's always been good at spotting people for what they are; it's a talent of his. If I've dealt with a Mantid that I don't know about, I certainly haven't dealt with many.

~J

I'd like to add another side to this: The creation of an Ally Familiar. I've experimented with several different Ally Spirit formulae, having dedicated several years of research (and personal power) to creating and studying such beings.

When an Ally is summoned, its power can be imbued into a constructed automaton, or a living being. That living being's 'soul' is pushed aside - to where, I don't know - and the Ally spirit's 'soul' takes its place, with the Ally's astral pattern altering the biochemistry and metabiology of the host body in subtle ways.

The process of preparing a metahuman host for Ally spirit possession is much more complex than preparing an animal host - the 'soul' in question is more complex, and the intelligence and strength of will of the metahuman provide a much higher reluctance for the soul to abandon the body - but once the merge is complete, the effects are profound. Any cyberware-based CNS damage is instantly repaired, and the physical template for the Astral pattern readjusts to its pre-implant status. The cyberware itself, of course, fails to function and is ejected painfully, and any further cyberware is unimplantable.

I would presume insect spirits use a similar, if not identical method for imbuement. I have not yet had opportunity to study their astral forms in-depth.

Anyone who is suicidal is obviously incapable of making responsible choices in there life. What Mantis do is similar to what the Kavorkians do, they offer an "easy" solution. Hell the person doesn't even have to pull a trigger or anything they just say yes.

Doesn't this seem wrong? Of course someone who is about to suicide would accept the deal, it absolves them off all responsibility off offing themselves.

You say they go someplace where theres no more pain. Where do they go exactly?

Well if the person is that far gone, where are their family members? Where are the people who could help them out? These women are so abandoned by a society willing to scream "murder" after the fact, that it lets them fall through the cracks so that the only friendly face they see is a spirit.

usually people who are that far gone aren't abandoned, they just don't see the people who love them as help. They need a safe place and time to get past it. Especially those who are bi-polar. So forgive me if I see this as taking advantage of a women.

Here is a great example.

I am at a party, I go upstairs, theres a women passed out drunk on the bed. She made the choice to drink. And I decide to take advantage of her. Is it my fault, of course not, wheres her family, wheres her friends?

The way you are saying it is, that it's okay because of where they are in there life. Well let me tell you, it's not okay. You are taking as much advantage of them as I would be of the passed out girl. the only difference is the passed out girl lives to regret her poor choice.

And you still didn't answer my question, where does the displaced soul go?


I in no way advocate mistreating women in any way, size shape or form, in fact I would shoot any bastard who so much as layed a hand on a women without her permission. Just to make my point clear.

One thing I was was wondering, why do bugs gotta be summoned into a host. Why can't ya just summon a trueform?

I dunno why a bugger shaman can't jest summ'n a trueform. Mebe dats cause the little buggers are more tied to the netherworlds 'stead of da earth unless they have some body here to anchor them.

I understand that, Herald. My question stands. Why?

>>I've always treated Mantid spirits with the same caution that I exhibit towards shapeshifters. They are similar in a number of ways. Both of them are sentient and capable of moving among humans, but not truly coexisting with them. They are... outside, to put it simply. They have an alien mindset, and it is not wise to ascribe human-like emotions and motivations to them. They are predators. Never forget that. Mantids kill other bugs for the same reason a wolf kills a deer - they aren't doing it because they are protectors of humanity. Hell, without a human form to use as a host, they can't even exist here.

Now, I don't recommend shooting mantids or 'shifters on sight. Despite being very dangerous, they are not always going to be a threat to you, personally. But I don't recommend trusting them, either. It's like meeting a grizzly in the wild. You don't walk up to it and pet it on the head (unless you're One-Armed Nick... and three guesses how he got his name). Treat mantids and 'shifters with a wary respect, and don't put yourself in a vulnerable position to them. What is it they say about dragons? Be polite to them, because to them, you are small and would taste good with ketchup? Bingo. And it's not a question of good and evil, not in the sense of the human terms at least. They are just doing what comes naturally to them. >>

But Shadow, in your example, the woman chose to drink herself insensible. People don't "choose" to be depressed. Also you were just using her for your own pleasure, not helping her and in the end, you were gone and she was left. A mantid helps the woman and it is a full commitment.

It's interesting. I won't deny the mantid lady makes an interesting argument. If I support a person's right to use BTL's, kill themself, use firearms, etc... what a mantis spirit is diong is basically making using of the dead body after the old host vacates. Now we can all agree forced possesion, is wrong, but the idea of voluntary possesision is much more difficult.

In the end the only argument that can be made is one of infringing on other's rights. If mantis spirit's reproduce, even without preying on humanity, than they will eventually displace humanity as the dominant species on the planet. Given that they lack a human thought proccess we can't assume they will allow us to continue to exsist as we are now. So in the end I have to oppose mantid ladies on the basis that if they go unchecked it will reach a point where they will impenge on other's peoples rights, and to be perfectly honest, what the hell is wrong with your metaplane that you're so depseratly trying to get to ours?

I dunno, you might say the girls go all free willed and stuff, but from what I've seen its the same ol' bug operation, usually on a smaller scale than some of those UB hell holes. Me and a few chummers take this job one time, good old smash and grab, 'cept the grab was some corp exec's daughter. Same difference. Being younger and maybe not as wise as I am now we just smash in one night and try to grab her. This was before the whole UB thing mind you, and well we was young and stupid. We didn't think that there'd be much to this woman's self improvement group an' all. Like crashing a tupperware party. What was the worst they were going to do? Drink their kool-aid before the full moon or something? Anyways there we is, Sid is gagging this girl we're about to run when the den mother comes in. Now I don't like hittin' ladies and all but she tries to take me down hard. I didn't expect her to be able to toss me in the corner like that, but I don't hink she thought I'd be able to get back up as quick either. She moves on Sid and busts him up bad, I mean bad as in this became a non-profit job for him after we were done. She comes back at me, but this time I'm quicker. I make her eat a couple sandbags from the old "gong" And she doesn't go down! So at this point I'm thinkin some serious mojo is going on. I end up stuffin a thermite gernade in her pocket and pushing her out from six floors up. Them gernades are expensive! We never found the body, but I did some figuring after a few more tussles with them bugs. Next time its shoot first, shoot again and don't stick around to ask questions.

I say frag 'em all. Wasp, Mantis, Dung Beetle, it ain't make no difference. Sooner we deal with them the sooner we can get down to solving the real problem and geeking the whole lot of those pouncy pointy eared dandelion eaters.

Well personally, if I'm going to die anyway... I'd rather go out with the ladies than with the dung beetles.

Thermite, eh? That count as an "elemental attack?" I know Big D's Temper rounds do wonders against elementals.

Back on topic, I like the question about why the bugs wanna come to our little plane? So, Hot Wheels, Bitten and any other buggy types, why ya wanna cross over so bad? What's wrong with your home plane? And don't say, "To hunt other bugs that escaped." I ain't buying it.

Also, I read in some posting somewhere that Spider's a totem and was somehow trapped before but is free now. I know spiders ain't insects, but they seem fairly similar to them in my non scientific mind. Why don't I ever hear of "Spider hosts?" And does Spider or it's shamans actively hunt bugs? Would they team up with a mantid, kill one on sight or see an "enemy of my enemy" thing?

Look at nature. They would eat them without a thought as to teaming up.

~J

"One is most dishonest to one's god: he is not allowed to sin." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil

"Would you rather be God's worst enemy or nothing?" - Jack

Many of you have spoke of the mantids as the "menace to humanity" and of course those who would not wish to labeled as such have fired back with "well look in the mirror." But are the mantids, even the bugs our main problem or do they have a point?

I personally would not want to be with someone who limited my "will to power" (This is your life... good to the last drop) whether that influence takes the form of a beauty that desires to eat my flesh body as a result of her bug nature or whim, or a beauty that snuffs out my soul by trying "to make me a better man." (You are not the contents of your credstick...)

Are the mantid women a curse, plague, evil, evolution, or simply part of the process? (We are all part of the same composite heep) Sucks when you get knocked from the top of the food chain neh omae?
(Nothing Static, everything is evolving, everything is falling apart.)

I would have no problem with the mantid women, but do not think that I am some "weak-willed male who thinks with his lower organ". Do not test the will of one who has overcome himself (It's only after you have lost everything that you are free to do anything), do not try to subvert my becoming. (I say never let me never be complete) If you try then there will be death, mine or yours. It is the only way.

As to freedom. HA! That is an illusion, unless you give up. Are the mantid women more guilty then say the corporations or the society that tells them that they have to look a certain way, dress in the finest clothes, and if they do not they are some how less? Is there a difference since both destroy the soul, only one is more overt in its method. Perhaps the mantid is a more honorable foe, since they are more honest?

I have accepted that I will die, and that gives me free will. Suicide? I hear the cry: "we must save them for themselves!" And then what? Do you say this to the rape victim outside of the clinic? Aah yes protect the innocent child, until it is born and then we seem to lose interest. Who is the monster? No don't kill yourself! We have pills for that? We want you to have free will, only if you chose to not piss on the salad bar. (You are not the car you drive...)

As Tyler said: "And you open the door and step inside. Inside our hearts. Now imagine your pain is a white ball of healing light... I don't think so." Let me see the world through the lens of the "proper" so I can discover which living room set defines me as a person! (Deliver me from Swedish furniture!) Oh the unbridled joy in finding out that I really think pop fashion is cool all on my own! (Deliver me from clear skin and perfect teeth!)

I accept that I am a monster. I have killed for myself, nations, pain, revenge, and self-preservation. Am I that different from that which I hate? Yes, I am me...

You can't say the mantids are evil or different. They are simply the face staring back from Abyss. We hate them because they remind us too much our humanity (You are not a beautiful, and unique snowflake), one that is irrational and flawed in this absurd world.

All that I ask from the mantid woman is this. Come to me with the left hand of peace over the right of war. If not then we shall do battle. Can you face the transcendant man, one who no longer fears death? (I say evolve and let the chips fall where they may.)

"Having been born into the house of a warrior, one's intentions should be to grasp the long and short swords and to die." - from The Precepts of Kato Kiyomasa

How do one become a shaman of any creed?? You get chosen by the Animal, the Idol, the Loa or the Insects. The Totem recognizes some thing of you in them and vice versa. I could not have chosen to be fearless Wolf, the Mother of all Things or Dambala. I was Chosen by Mantis. She recognized something of me in her.
Why should She choose to possess when women willingly accept her?

I am as much part of this plane as any other.
Why do the Animal Totems choose their shamans on this plane, when they could gladly stay on their own?? This is my home as much as yours. I don't want it ruined by Dung beetles, Wasp infestations etc...

Spider is Arachnae and as such is a whole other breed creature. She spins and weaves most dangerous webs, but how beautiful they are. She and I have worked together before to the detriment of others. You may think that I am dangerous, but she holds the threads and can and will be the puppeteer of Meta/Humanity...
You fear me.... gales of laughter
Fear Her...


Remember, I am only threatens those who threatens me.
Threaten me and mine and you are living in interesting times, Sketi....

Perhaps I missed this earlier, but some of you spoke of mates. Perhaps you could shed some light into this cave of shadows that is my perception of your domestic rituals.

Do you chose your own mates, or does your "totem" chose them for you or perhaps makes suggestions?

If you do get to chose what qualities do you look for in a mate? Strength, Intelligence, subservient?

Does your relationship have a semblance of equality or is matriarchal?

Is there a special role your mate must fulfill (child-rearer, protector) or is it less structured than that?

Do you have male mantid spirits? If so, why have they not made their presence known, and if not why not?

Do you experience feelings that could be called human? (I.e. sadness, love, joy, sorrow, pain)?

Is your society caste structured or more independent?

Answer one, none, or all of these if you like.

Thanks for your time.

L.

Free will or no free will that mantid set up was just like any of the other bug traps I've seen, Preying on the weak. Just like any other of the bugs. Predators. Mind you I've seen a lot of two legged predators in my time, but there ain't nothin' that separates them bugs except its just a different con. Sort of like those late night ads on the trid, except they ain't after your money.

BTW: WP seems to work good too.

Bugs prey on the weak... corps prey on the weak... governments prey on the weak... runners prey on the weak... when has it ever been any other way?

It hasn't. That's why we fight all of them.

Governments take your freedom, Corps take your money, Bugs take your soul.

You take your pick.

Please, what need do I have for your soul? What need do I have for your body? When there is tastier prey around than a measly meta/human male??
Why do I even bother talking to you when your convictions are written in stone and nothing I say or do can change them??
I've tried with reason as have others, I've tried with logic as have others and all you see is something evil and putrid. Please, I hunt bugs, I do not hunt meta/humanity. Unless they threaten me.
I have no wish to breed as rapidly as Roach or Ant. It would ruin my habitat, my feeding ground to use words you may understand.derisive sniff
Many mantis shamans means lots and lots of tastier bugs around humans. But all your eyes see are the good merge betwixt them and you...
Tasteblind, scentblind and astralblind.. How I pity you. Your women must truly wail at your impotence. No wonder Earthmen are easy.

Yes, Lazarus, I have emotions though I like it not. My Lifemate has been chosen on grounds most males do not understand: Honor, Conviction and Courage. To loose him would be to loose my Soul, my Honor and my Life.
Answer enough? arched eyebrow

I have no need to prey on meta/humanity other than the convicted criminals and bullyboys. "Oh my", you say, "A mantis shaman with a conscience"...
Newsflash, sketi most of the chosen have a conscience.
When you hear of a Mantis shaman in the news, it is because we cast her out of our sorority and hence she is Outlawed.
Come not to me and speak of atrocities, Human Sketi. When one lives in a glass domicile, one should not throw stones...
We do not kill our young nor do We kill for fun or sport. Why should we wish to outbreed the humans, why should we take over the planet? Please, I like it as is...

Meta/humans, you are not worth your life...

I might be easy, I just ain't cheap.

Let's just hope we don't cross paths mantis lady, I'd hate to tussle with ya'.

Call me closed minded, but when alien metaplane Bug critters decided that they need our Earth women... I am a little weirded out.

Now I don't have no fancy degree from MITT or nuthin, but I've been in a couple of bug holes in my time. Thing is, the ladies in a mantid hive look all pretty and normal, but I ain't never seen a normal guy running around there. But what I did see was frickin 6 ft tall Mantids running around.

Later we found out where those things came from, when we saw some guy deep in the hive, looked completely normal, burst open and one of those things pop out of him. It was just like that old vid movie, only a lot more bloody and lot more real.

So call me crazy if I am a little distrustful of our 'friends' the Mantis Spirits.

You're crazy!

Okay, I understand the whole thing about hiding 'cause people attack that which is different. There'll always be those who'll attack orks and dwarfs, let alone "insidious insect hosts." If there's a mantis sorority, why not ease into public view? I know us orks get a lot less violence driected at us after folks got used to our presence.

I'm sure some prety rich or powerful or smart folk been posessed. Why not use them resources to expose the "myths?" Make friends in influential places and make public parascientific evidence that dispels the "misconceptions?" As it is I ain't seen no evidence of mantids working for such a thing, shamans, queens or otherwise. This is the path to tolerance if not acceptance. Some o' ya gals gotta be smart enough to know this. The whole tolerance or acceptance thing is based on a bit of trust. The whole host thing makes trust hard so if ya wanna not be persecuted ya gotta prove that yer actually doin' yer hosts a favour. The shamans gotta work toward exposing the nature of Mantis an' such. The power t' be a part of society is in yer own hands. Do the work!

Bitten, have you heard of Dee? Dee,is my "totem".I think of her as my teacher. She guides me,gourds me, and teaches me. Mantids hate her.Well, at least wish to kill her in any form. Now, I do not know the whole truth.But as I recall Dee, was at one point a part of a mantid cult, or is it that some of her followers, long ago were part of a mantid cult, before fallowing her.

Now that I think of it.Bugs hate Dee.I was in a hive, not that big of one.As in compared to bug town.But big enough.So me and my team, were in there.Doing and trash and burn job.I was Dee, as she is the easiest for me to become. And as soon as any bug saw me, they stoped what they were doing,and tried to kill me. Star Child, was killing them well his spirits were.He had this spirit of man,that was just huge.Must have been 4 matters tall, and two matters wide.But the bugs only attacked it on their way to me.

They kept calling me, the "Hallowed one.The red morning." Now,they didn't use those words, but I knew that is what they were saying.Don't ask me,how or why

By the way, of the two other followers of Dee,that I know.Both of them are female.

Different-days

I say let the Mantids have thier rights, and then put them in jail when they cant explain missing meta's. If they have rights they have to register that they are Mantids and can be kept track of better

>>"Missing metas?" You fool. Every mantis spirit IS a "missing meta". They require hosts. And they see metahumanity as prey. They may hunt other bugs too, but don't let them talk you into seeing them as defenders of metahumanity, or even allies. They use humans to brood more of their kind - a process that destroys the host. Don't let them fool you. A good merge only means that the insect spirit can access the host's old memories. The old person, the old personality, is gone. If there was truly a blending of the two, then why is it the stronger female mantids who are good merges, while the weaker male mantids always manifest as true form spirits? Don't you think the "old" personality would be likelier to prevail over a weaker spirit? Don't ever, ever be fooled. If someone you love is the host for a mantid spirit, they are dead. Something unholy and alien is looking out from their eyes. This, by the way, is the consensus of every single researcher who has studied the topic - and if you knew how rare it is for the magical community to reach a consensus on anything, you would appreciate the importance of that fact.

Oh, and don't let the mantid shamans fool you with their insipid propoganda, either. The insect totems are not like other Totems - they are utterly removed from metahumanity. Insect shamans are people who seek out power, and they don't work with their so-called "Totem". Indeed, they find themselves in a perpetual power struggle with the mother spirit, as both strive for dominance. As far as a "sorority"...*snort* The most I've ever seen of these whackos working together was three of them in Bali, before I lobbed an IPE grenade to send them all to Hell where they belong. They are just like blood magicians, toxic shamans, and all other forms of the corrupted. Remember, every mantid shaman is a cold-blooded murderess who uses people as hosts for the monsters that she summons.

Feh. You'd think, after the U.B., people would be less naive. >>

<<<TRIAGE The hunter in the darkness >>>

This raises the question that gets debated in Shamanic Theory 221 every couple of weeks or so: totems, are they real or just constructs of the Shaman's mind to explain and give form to their powers? I don't want to get into that debate again here (I'm so glad I got that transducer installed so I can tune the morons shouting at each other out without the prof noticing), but if the former, we can't deny legitimacy to insect spirits based on alienness but have to find a different reason. If, on the other hand, the totem is in the mind of the shaman (or, come to think of it, if the totem is objective but is created out of human myth, legend, and belief) then the insect spirits, as objective totems not created by human myth, have some 'splaining to do.
I think I'm going to bring this up next class and pray I don't get crucified.

~J

Nah, you'll be fine.

The Christians only do it once a savior.

-Siege

Absurd! The Tir - both of them - hate the Invae as much as anyone.