Could be because that's how the stun gun manufacturers phrase how their products work.

Their descriptions indicate that the stun guns work via two main principles:

a) A high-voltage low-amperage* electrical charge interferes with the existing electrical system of the body, i.e. the nervous system, adding noise to the signals and mucking up communications. Most stun guns use this effect.

b) The electrical charges have a pulse frequency closely matching the body's own, directly ordering the muscles to lock up. Not all stun guns do this, but most do. It is a refinement in the technology.

Even if we discount the second effect, it is NOT the power level of the electricity that is doing the work. It is the electricity interfering with the body's ability to control itself. Like jamming a radio.

In contrast, shoving a high amperage* electrical power main into a human body would have a markedly different effect. Burning, massive tissue destruction, eyeballs popping as their water content gets flash-heated to steam, etc. High power electrical arcing can produce momentary temperatures in the tens of thousands of degrees.

Therein lies the difference.

Applied to Shadowrun, that low amperage taser will have no biological systems to disrupt and shouldn't make a spirit do much more than giggle. A high-amp power main will cause actual physical damage, however, and should probably be counted as bypassing ItNW.



-np

* - physics 101, people. Amps kill, Volts don't.

(Yes, I know its technically more complicated than that, but it's good enough for a rough idea)

Understand the Physics part of the Amps Kill Volts Don't (not sure why I always get hung up on Watts vs. Volts; Maybe I am just a biot loopy when it comes to electricity)...

But just casually reaching out and "Jamming" a conduit from an electrical main is going to fry the attacker about as much as the target in most cases, unless you are being exceedcingly careful, which is counter-intuitive to an ongoing combat...

Just sayin'

As far as the Tazer vs. Electrical Main theme against the Spirit... BOTH are Elemental Attacks by RAW... Scale MAY matter, but that just means that the Electrical Main is doing Physical Damage and a lot more than 6p(e) at that (though I guess that you could assign both as Stun Damage, with the Electrical Main in the 20s(e) range)... however, Both will only reduce the Spirits ITNW by Half regardless of the power ratio that you compare them to...

Also just sayin'

And as for how manufacturers phrase the Effect of a Tazer, they really do not have any Spirits to compare to now do they? Electricty is an Elemental Attack that works against all spirits... It works (regardless of how it works on Humans) exactly because it IS AN ELEMENTAL ATTACK... what more really need be said?

Keep the Faith

Except that I've already stated that I consider energy attacks to bypass ItNW due to them being torrents of raw elemental power. Elemental power being one of the classic effects that affect magic.

The micro-tickle a taser would be generating shouldn't be enough to do much to a spirit if you remove the "interferes with biological systems" bit.

I suppose it should be possibly to jury-rig a taser to massively up the amps and power, adding in a nice rack of additional capacitors and such, to actually work by doing raw tissue damage instead of jamming the biological radio. In which case, I'd let it affect spirits.

Tasers work entirely by disrupting the nervous and muscular systems. They don't do any actual tissue damage. Remove that disrupting ability they're just not a heck of lot of power behind the buggers.

Which is why most recently Taser was able to shove a stun system into something as small as a shotgun shell. Tiny batteries. Not a lot of power because it does not operate via raw power.

It's the same reason I wouldn't allow even a very strong flashlight to blind a spirit, because they don't have eyes to blind. I'd allow a laser to do full damage, though. They're both light, right?



-np

I'd let a taser do exactly the damage it says it should do against a spirit, the same as a lightning bolt (which should have a much higher DV). I presume that capacitors will continue to get better and better and that, 65 years from now, there will be capacitors that can fit into a shotgun shell and pack a really considerable shock. They can already fit normal tasers in a shotgun round. I think any difference in the two attacks is of course due to their size, which is reflected in their DV.

How quaint, considering that the Light elemental effect (which is what Laser spells do) includes a blinding secondary effect.

.. it is good thing that rule is OPTIONAL as well other less sane..min Str 8 and BOD 8 for even carrying heavy weapons (w/o gyro stab.)...yeah,right..

Great, so you use your house rules based on how you think the system works and I'll use my house rules based on how I think the system works, and none of it will be relevant to the discussion at hand. The fact is that both of them are electric damage and both of them do the exact same thing to spirits, the system doesn't make any distinction based on volts or amperages or anything else as that unneccesarily complicates matters. Tasers are useless either way, theres no reason to give them some contrived penalty vs spirits. Keep in mind that rules are meant to keep play in balance more than keep to real life.

As for the actual topic of discussion, I have the same problem with enchanting tasers as weapon foci as I would with casting Enhance Aim on a car with computer controlled turrets. You can't reach the technological aspects of an item with magic. You might be able to enchant a harpoon if you paid a lot for all the enchanting materials you'd need to use in the rope, but a taser doesn't do any damage physically, only through technological means. That's the fluff. RAW reason is that you can't enchant anything defined as a ranged weapon to be a weapon focus, so both tasers and harpoons are out. Argue house rules all you want, unless you bring something that better balances the game up then all you're yapping about is your personal preference.

Stun batons work just fine as weapon foci.

As stated previously, magic doesn't have to make sense in the physical world. It just has to follow its own rules. Tasers and harpoons can't be made into Weapon Foci simply because they're ranged weapons, and for whatever strange reason, the benefits of a weapon foci do not extend to ranged weapons. It doesn't make any sense that a spell can make a statue become animated, or that waving your fingers in the air can knit your wounds together. But magic can do that because it quite literally is magic. Same difference.

Besides if you did have one, why are you in the shadows? Take it to Boston and become an instant millionaire courtesy of Dunkelzahn's will.

I actually don't have any more problem with a stun baton being used as a weapon foci as I do with net hits on a clubbing test increasing a stun baton's electrical damage. You're at least hitting the enemy with a club while using a stun baton, a taser can't do any damage at all if it's not plugged in.

I am going to have to agree with Patrick the Gnome on this one... House rules just tend to cloud the issues at hand...

Keep the Faith

Sadly, SR requires houserules to be made playable. Otherwise, a pixie by RAW can use an assault rifle, and that's just stupid.

Not really, no... that is why you have a Game Master who, hopefully, has a bit of common sense...

Pixie: "I want to purchase an Ares Alpha for my Primary Weapon"
GM: "Excuse me? You cannot use an Assault Rifle; Would you like to try again?"
Pixie: "What do you Mean? Book says I can use it"
GM: "No it doesn't. You are 16" tall, If a Dwarf and Troll have limits to what they can wield due to size, well, then so do you. And notice, there are no special exceptions, Qualities, or weapon modifications so that you can get a Pixie Sized Weapon Modification for any weapon that you want. As such, you may not wield any firearms bigger than a holdout pistol. You may feel free to consult me on Melee Weapons, but do not ask if you can use a No-Daichi either... it is not going to happen"
Pixie: "Why are you being such an Ass?"
GM: "Hey, you are the one that wanted to play a Pixie, and I am not going to allow you to break the rules because you want to be the first Rambo Terminator Pixie in existence; you want to have weapons, fine, but they will be sized appropriate to your race... Deal with it"

This does not require any houserules... none at all... A Pixie can use a Dagger or a Bow (Appropriately strrength limited obviously) and even several other melee weapons if they like, at worse, I would adjust the weapon stats a bit, but would not feel compelled to do so, after all, a Pixie sized weapon is probably "enchanted" enough to keep the same weapon damage codes for reasonable weapons... as I said, you would never allow a Pixie to try and convince you that he could wield a No-Daichi would you? or a Polearm?

Common Sense fixes a lot of problems... Just say No...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Common Sense is not RAW. And that's part of the problem.

Sure it is... they even have a Quality for it in Runners Companion... Sometimes, at our table, we even get the benefit of the Quality without even having it, because our GM will look at us and ask: Really... How do you rationalize that? And if we cannot actually rationalize it, then it does not happen... This generally does not happen a lot in our game, because we are all rational people, and can see quite plainlyt when something does not look right...

The Pixie with the Assault Rifle would be a prime example... Not going to happen... If you begin to ignore Common Sense for STRICT RAW Interpretation, then you get silly things like NPC's cannot communicate because they do not have any Language skills written on their stat blocks... or NPC's have no Knowledge SKills because they are not listed... It becomes completely ludicrous... If a Dwarf cannot carry/use a No-Daichi effectively, what makes you think that the Pixie is going to be able to do so?

Seems pretty RAW to me...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

It sounds like you have a logical table to play at, I'll have to look you up if I ever wind up in your part of the country. I once received a blank stare from a player when I asked how exactly she planned on carrying that 3000 cubic cm backpack with a 2 handed warhammer and a 2 handed sword. Note that both were too long to carry in a side sheath and thus would have to be slung over the shoulder/back. At the same table I also received a blank stare when I inquired how exactly a player planned on carrying about 30 AR-15 style magazines in a manner that would allow them to access all for reloading. If you need that quantity of ammo all in one go you should bring a bigger weapon, plus a manageable magazine pouch might have space for about six magazines. In my experience that's stretching it.

While it might be in the rulebooks tangentially, I'll still maintain that Common Sense isn't RAW. It certainly isn't standard issue for most players in my experience.

Yes, I will agree whole heartedly that Common Sense is definitely not standard issue for most gamers...
As for Magazines... If I remember correctly, I carried a full Dozen Magazines for my M-16 while I was in the Gulf (that was 360 Rounds)... and even with 5.56 Ammunition, they were a tad on the uncomfortable side when you add in the rest of the gear that I was carrying...

Yeah, a few(2-3) Extra Magazines for each gun, not more than 2-3 guns (Generally I carry 2 pistols... a Ligth Pistol and a Heavy, along with an SMG)... anything esle is just way too much gear...

And yeah, we are in Denver, Colorado... Not sure which District though... and I have never seen a Ghostwalker while I was out and about either... Hell, I even have several guys in our group from your neck of the woods...

Keep the Faith

It's humorous that when I say that in a thread, people like you come in and start yelling at me for daring to bring it up.

The problem is that 'common sense' for things like weapon sizes are a mess. You want to be fair, not arbitrary. For something as fundamental as this, you want something 'official'; lacking that, your whole group better be involved in the decision.

The thing about weapons that are too big and pixies.. while pixies are disproportionately strong for their size.. theres things thing called leverage.. and also another thing called recoil. Both are a problem..not to mention being able to -reach- the trigger.

common sense >.> hurray!

Besides the little buggers are more than fast enough to slit people's throats pretty easy, as well as being difficult to see and dodgy

I am pretty sure that I have never yelled at you for Common Sense Applications there Doc... You and I have gone around a few times, I know, but not about Common Sense... and then, of course, there is common sense, and then there is Common Sense...

Keep the Faith

..If the size of the Pixie is issue, why not make them bigger?
As Critter Pixie is capable to take Metahuman Trait (Gigantism)-Quality from Runner's Companion (pg.114)
Growth of the pixie charc. (IMOO) would end somewhere between 2 ft to 2,5 ft (60 cm and 75 cm)
and very close to Dwarwen metavariant Gnome's height..

last chapter of this has some serious badass pxie/faerie thingies.
http://www.errantstory.com/

I don't think pixies count as metahumans or metavariants do they? Can you even SURGE them by RAW?

EDIT: Thats not to say I don't want creepy dwarfs with wings in my game, but....

Technically, everything can be surged.
Surge is just a magically activated set of characteristics that evolution stowed away after not needing them anymore.

Right, 'depending on GM approval', critters can SURGE.

Diverging back to the WF topic, I am AFB but it was my impression that the materials and design were fundemental to creating a focus of any type (fluff). One of those two requirements should exclude nearly all technological weapons as foci.

Using the Monofilament whip as an example, the actual Monofiliment can't really be sculpted into a mystically signifigant shape and still retain it's proprerties as a whip, likewise the monomolecular material probably can't be made of just any compound or element.

Highly processed telesma can make things harder, but it doesn't say that processed objects are so hard to use that a non-ranged weapon is ever excluded from being a weapon focus. Magic is partly about faith and symbolism, to be sure, but it appears that often times such things are necessary only because of the user's limitations. Traditions, talismans, and Centering gestures give the Awakened person a mental template so they can leverage their talent in a more controlled manner. But with that said, barely sapient creatures, magical "knacks" and traditions that often contradict themselves show that magic is pretty unpredictable and doesn't necessarily need all that much order to happen. Hurdles can often be cleared.

So yes, a monowhip is a highly processed object and in many ways it's a fantastical weapon that's hard to understand and is largely bereft of symbolism and tradition. All of that makes it hard to incorporate into magical design. But the RAW only says that it is hard to enchant processed telesma, not that it is impossible,* and you can incorporate material aids such as orichalcum into the construction to help compensate. As such I see no reason why a player shouldn't be allowed to attune to a whip and still have it function if they have the prerequisite magical talent, discipline and resources to pull off the feat. At the end of the day the monowhip still supposedly operates by being really sharp and having a weight on the end of it to give it some momentum. Its construction is exotic, not its operation, sci-fi movie physics aside. Besides, some traditions are quite comfortable subverting modern developments and incorporating them into the old ways.

*Seriously guys, you can enchant your commlink so that it helps you do things that have absolutely nothing to do with being a commlink. Like soaking the drain on summoning tests-- I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the symbolism of being a magical commlink doesn't come into play with most traditions. Yet it is possible. Compared to that, I'd think it would be easy to make a monowhip into a magical monowhip that does the kinds of things you'd expect from a magical monowhip on the astral.

Y'know I asked about this months ago? You can have giant pixies -and- dwarf pixies. I had been curious about the range of sizes at the extreme ends, my little hacker is small enough to almost qualify for dwarfism (the condition) as a pixie at just a foot high.

I know this topic is a little old but I still wanted to post my thoughts.

Back to people bonding a harpoon weapon focus. I think it could work (and be fair) provided the rope or chain the harpoon was tied to was permanently attached and enchanted as part of the weapon focus.

Weapon Focus-Karma Cost (3 + Weapon Reach) x Force

It becomes prohibitively expensive. One could have a force one harpoon with a long reach. But if any part of the focus is destroyed the whole thing is destroyed, right? If the chain or rope is cut then the whole thing is toast.

As for enchaining a monofilament whip: the only place I could see Orichalcum being added to the business end of the weapon is on the weighted tip. Even added a very fine mist of vaporized Orichalcum to settle and bond to the wire would make the wire possibly to think to be used as a weapon. But maybe it would work. Just plating would definitely not work but if it were more like a few microscopic particles evenly, but distantly, dispersed, then it might be plausible.


Both the harpoon and the monofilament whip might still unbalance the game a bit, but the whip I think is ok. I kind of thought it would not be ok but the rulebooks do not specificaly say monofilament whips can't be enchanted, so why not enchant it?

The thing with orichalcum is that it is described as utterly absurd, so it's a tough thing to disallow. Still, I always considered the weighted tip to be an obvious choice and ultimately orichalcum is just a facilitator anyway. Regardless, weapon foci aren't really that big of a deal, for the most part. Melee weapons are frankly easy to defend against relative to other attack types, after all, likely in part due to their unique position as a source of both offense and defense. So while it's nice to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons, it is often balanced out by the target's ability to retain Skill dice or even count Skill twice if they go on Full Defense, a tactic that's hardly uncommon given that even weak spirits have 2 passes. Further, the Astral utility of weapon foci isn't really that big of a deal given that Astral Projectors are Magicians and thus are usually capable of taking Mana Bolt as an inexpensive alternative.

As far as monowhips specifically are concerned, the damage code is indeed terribly nasty as a weapon for wimpy runners, but they cannot be specialized in and characters with big muscles can beat the damage code out with other weapons. You end up needing a Force 3+ focus to start coming out ahead on dice pool sizes compared to a swordsman with a favored weapon and if he's an Adept with a weapon focus you can't really expect to catch up without starting to give up your karma advantage. In short, monowhips are excellent because they are easily concealed and allow a runner to mount a credible melee threat with minimal BP/Karma investment in close combat. Just don't expect to fight on even terms with a Escrima Adept or a cybered MMA enthusiast with a couple of Ultimate Champion armored cyberarms. You'll get wrecked.

Why exactly can you not specialize the use of a Monofilament Whip? I would think that EW: Monifilament Whip (Called Shots +2) would be perfectly acceptable... but I am away from my books currently, so maybe it says that Exotic Weapons may not have specializations, I don't know...

Keep the Faith

No, you can't specialize Exotics. Is Called Shots a valid specialization anyway?

Exotic Weapons have a big ol' fat N/A listed under their specializations. I imagine that this is due to weapon specializations being limited to type and to defense tests in all other examples. Taking the Monowhip skill with the specialization in monowhips does sound a pinch redundant, after all.

I actually liked it better in third edition, when monofilament whips fell under the whips category, where you at least had a few other useful options (that ninja sickle and chain weapon, etc.), and could specialize in monofilament whip. Still, like Whipstich said, it's a good choice if you want a lot of bang for your BP's, along with very good concealability.

Back to Tasers and other elemental but mundane damage.
Neither tasers nor any other elemental damage (electrical, fire, acid etc.) bypass ItNW per se no matter the power output. ItNW has a number of exceptions, but being elemental damage is not one of them. A taser or a flamethrower (weapon) do not get any benefit except their normal stats (-half impact) against spirits, the lightning bolt or flamethrower/fireball (spell) of course do pierce ItNW. This is not because of more power but because they are spells which are explicit exceptions to ItNW.

The confusion may have come from SR3 where indirect Combat Spells with an elemental effect were called Elemental Manipulations, and some people extended their powers against spirits to mundane elemental effects for some reason. This is not the case in SR4 and I doubt it was in SR3.

How does somebody who is uneducated end up with maxed out skill in a highly technological exotic weapon?

Very carefully. *rimshot*

Simple Answer, just as anyone else: by acquiring one and training. Uneducated does not limit your access to technology or training in Combat skills.

That is a problem with how Exotic Weapon skills work, not with the Uneducated flaw. Contrary to all other very broad weapon skills the exotic weapon skills only apply to one kind of weapon.

Is there a specific monofilament whip skill rather than a general whip skill?

Not by the strict letter of the mechanics, no. But the quality description makes it pretty clear (from examples) that it is intended for use by characters who haven't had much interaction with the modern world, typically because they are members of reclusive social groups.

A skill level of 6 is world class. You don't achieve world class skill without training or interfacing with other experts in the field. You don't get training andf knowledge sharing in a high tech weapon that only a very few people even know how to use (let alone access to a magical version of said weapon) without some connections to the modern world.

Unless maybe you propose that a big spool of monowire, some cutters, and a box of clamps "fell off the back of a truck" near some pixie tribe's territory, and they developed a cultural expertise in the manufacture and use of monowhips, or some such? Of course, such easy construction doesn't gibe with the weapon's very high availability... but that's a flaw in the weapon description ever since SR1. You've got monowire used on industrial scales (or at least in large amounts as affordable security fencing), but monowhips being rare as hens teeth (and very pricey).
Maybe he was adopted / purchased by a crazed monowhip expert who trained him relentlessly but never let him watch trid or go outside?

Level 6 in any skill and nobody that knows about the character's expertise is always less than plausible, but that is the default. Otherwise you would always have to slap Fame or at least a point of Public Awareness on such characters.

I'm not sure how badly this build needs the BP but there is always the option to buy off the quality at CharGen.

BTW am I missing something or is the Pixie pretty squishy?

Nope, In SR4 there is only Exotic Melee Weapon (Monofilament Whip). Since there is no other whip IIRC there is no point for another exotic weapon skill.
I would have preferred to add the skill flexible weapon to the close combat group.

Making a pixie that -isn't- squishy is an uphill battle, considering they hard cap at Body 3 without augmentation or an Exceptional Attribute analogue. I have a tough time disagreeing with the decision to bet on defense pools instead of trying to make the soak pool into something more robust.

There is a regular whip in Arsenal.

Whip is an exotic weapon, as well. They're pretty distinct, but maybe you could get the GM to let you use both. But… who'd ever use a whip?

A dominatrix?

Indianer Jones?

Even Indy only really used it for disarms and as a tool though. Still, fighting Indy without a weapon didn't go so well for most people.

*shrugs* use is use ^^

And disarm gets a whole new sense when you try to do the trick with a monofilament whip

that's the most abused pun ever . .