Bastard
Jul 26 2005, 04:47 PM
I thought using ambidexterity 8 as an edge wiped out all second weapon mods...but I could be wrong
Edit:
I will fire with both guns anyways, burst fire twice.
I have -3 Recoil on both pistols
Pistols 6
Burst One Right Hand
[ Spoiler ]
+4 combat Pool
10,9,9,5,5,4,3,3,3,2
Burst Two Left Hand
[ Spoiler ]
+4 Combat Pool
10,5,5,5,4,4,4,3,2,1
Burst Three Right Hand
[ Spoiler ]
4,4,4,4,3,1
Burst Four Left Hand
[ Spoiler ]
13,3,3,3,2,2
Slipshade
Jul 26 2005, 05:01 PM
Correct, Ambidexterity 8 has no target modifiers at all. +0 for first and second weapon. But Grendel may have just been qouting the rule when he said that all modifiers for the second weapon apply when not using the smartlink.
So, in your case the second weapon modifier of +0 applies.

Though Grendel can overule me on this of course.
Slip
WinterRat1
Jul 26 2005, 05:24 PM
I'll let grendel handle all the rules specifics, but I want to toss another thing out for your consideration Grendel:
Bastard- Guardians can only burst-fire as a complex action, so at most you could only fire one burst from each gun. Under no circumstances (even if you were firing just one Guardian) could you BF twice from the same Guardian.
Which leads to my question...
Grendel- Is it possible to fire two bursts, one from each Guardian, since each burst requires a complex action and characters are only allowed 1 Complex Action per pass?
Obviously this affects Dragon too, since he also uses paired Guardians at times, so I figure this is as good a time to ask as any.
Sedna
Jul 26 2005, 05:37 PM
I'll echo that question

(I can potentially see
Alleycat with two burst-modded pistols as well.)
Is there anywhere in the rules that states how many
bullets a given gun can fire per full combat round? I'm thinking there ought to be a maximum, before the gun itself starts jamming?
paul_HArkonen
Jul 26 2005, 06:11 PM
Ah the wonders of magic, never have to worry about that.
I've never seen any rules regarding maximum bullets, but my group at least tends to house rule it, although, again, rule mods are up to GMs and I'll be fine with whichever.
WinterRat1
Jul 26 2005, 06:27 PM
QUOTE |
I'll echo that question (I can potentially see Alleycat with two burst-modded pistols as well.)
Is there anywhere in the rules that states how many bullets a given gun can fire per full combat round? I'm thinking there ought to be a maximum, before the gun itself starts jamming? |
You can fire two burst-modded pistols, just like you can fire two SMGs, one in each hand, on burst fire. Think machine pistols.
And yes, there are rules that state how many bullets a given gun can fire per full combat round. It’s pretty generic, like everything below super-machine gun class (assault rifles and SMGs, LMGs, MMGs, HMGs) can fire a max of 10 bullets per round on full auto. Super-machine gun class (Ingram Supermach, Ares HV-LMG, etc) can fire a max of 15 bullets per round. Miniguns can ONLY fire 15 bullets per round. And so on. It’s in SR3 and Cannon Companion I believe.
The issue here is that because the Guardian requires a complex action to use burst fire, will having one in each hand get around the 1 complex action per turn rule?
Personally, I would rule no, because otherwise it brings the question of can you fire two weapons (say SMGs) full-auto, if you have one in each hand. It is clearly stated (somewhere, don’t have the book with me) that you cannot fire two weapons at full-auto at the same time, and I BELIEVE (again, no book) that the reasoning is because it requires a complex action to use full auto.
In the absence of a specific ruling to the contrary, I would rule that no matter what, a character can only fire one burst from one Guardian per turn, even if you have one in each hand, since a character is only allowed one complex action a turn, and the example in the book of using two full-auto weapons (which would require a complex action for each weapon firing full-auto) has been disallowed.
Note that this does not affect say, the Ruger Thunderbolt, which only requires a simple action to fire BF, and therefore COULD be fired with 2 bursts normally per turn, and another one in your off hand would allow for another 2 bursts.
Again, that’s my stance in the absence of a specific ruling in the book. Grendel, I’ll wait for you to weigh in on this and we can go/discuss from there, in the GM emails if necessary, so we don’t clog up the OOC thread.
Slipshade
Jul 26 2005, 08:16 PM
WinterRat - Let me know how the decker looks astally.
[ Spoiler ]
Perception: 04,02,02,02,01
Aura Reading: 04,01,01,01
Man did that suck.
WinterRat1
Jul 26 2005, 08:27 PM
She's got some cyber in her head. That's all you can tell with that roll.
Bastard
Jul 26 2005, 09:14 PM
well my second two shots sucked anyways

Edit: I will have to look into getting some Ruger Thunderbolts, gold plated of course.
Shadow
Jul 26 2005, 09:27 PM
Just to drop my two cents in. This has always been a flaw in the dual wield rules. It shouldn't give you the ability to have more actions just because you are wielding two weapons. Two pistols? great you can fire one round from each, instead you can fire four. I hate it. But carry that further and you can fire two bursts, or yes, two full auto 10 round shots from each hand. Its stupid, but it is the way the rule reads.
Sedna
Jul 26 2005, 11:08 PM
QUOTE |
It’s pretty generic, like everything below super-machine gun class (assault rifles and SMGs, LMGs, MMGs, HMGs) can fire a max of 10 bullets per round on full auto. |
If this is an absolute cap, this would create the limits you're looking for, Shadow. Take a single pistol (say it's modded to burst fire in simple action); and let's say it's a street sam who gets to go three times in a combat round.
Pass #1: two simple actions (burst fire each) = six bullets.
Pass #2: two simple actions (burst fire each) = six bullets. ... oops ...
WinterRat1
Jul 26 2005, 11:18 PM
Ask 10 shadowrun players a rules question and you'll get how many answers/house rules/theories/thoughts/rulings/interpretations...?
WinterRat1
Jul 26 2005, 11:30 PM
Slip, Scrap- She's waiting for you, since you said you'd meet her, so it's on you guys to make a move, otherwise she's just sorta standing there, trying to make it look casual.
Sedna- Go ahead and finish the meet and zip over to the Rhino, unless you want to press Durin for anymore info.
Paul- You're free to post, but I recommend you coordinate with Sedna so we can get the timetables correlated correctly.
Slipshade
Jul 26 2005, 11:33 PM
Winter - Figured as much, I think Scrap is going to post the next update as Max has no clue what to do at the moment other than sit tight and watch.
That and I don't want the freaky looking elf to scare her away.

Slip
grendel
Jul 27 2005, 12:40 AM
As per Cannon Companion p. 94, two weapon ranged combat, the rules are as I stated above. The ambidexterity edge allows you to negate penalties for using a second weapon in melee combat. Burst fire is possible from each weapon, as long as both are fired in the same mode: i.e. both in BF or both in SA, not one in each.
The Guardian can fire a burst as a complex action, and therefore only one burst may be fired from each weapon.
Sedna: you're forgetting that it's a 10 round cap on automatic bursts, and you can fire one per pass. So it would be 10 first pass and 10 second pass. The limit is 18 rounds for a supermachinegun class weapon.
There have been numerous debates over the cyclic and sustained rates of fire created by the artificial limits on the numbers of rounds in bursts in Shadowrun. I've always felt that it struck a good balance between complexity of reality and simplicity of rules since in the real world, every weapon has a different cyclic and sustained rate of fire, which would mean additional stats for every weapon in every class.
paul_HArkonen
Jul 27 2005, 03:25 AM
Winterrat- actually that's more or less what I'm going to do, he's going to hang out there, making trips back and forth in the astral until he sees some sign of Alleycat, or some sign he's no longer welcome in the area.
grendel
Jul 27 2005, 05:47 AM
Bclements: Tony is up on 2.
Scrapheap
Jul 27 2005, 02:43 PM
WR1-
Perception to see if/where Iris is carrying any weapons.
[ Spoiler ]
15 11 07 04 03
Sedna
Jul 27 2005, 02:51 PM
grendel, I was just going by the quote here, nothing more (which is where I got "round" from). You hadn't confirmed or denied: is there a canon absolute cap of any kind on weapons which aren't supermachinegun class?
ie. (and probably most relevantly) pistols?
paul, DH, sorry I held you up -- one of you take the next post, you can write her in at the Rhino at 11:20, give or take a minute. (We'll want to shift to the Salvation thread.) Her appearance is once again that of
Sal. I wrote in voicemail since you said
Blaze was staying astral until he spotted one of us and I figured
Tin Star would be late (again, again)
bclements
Jul 27 2005, 02:54 PM
Ok, how's the visablity? I'm looking primarly for anyone targeting me or
Marquis, secondarly for the couple in the middle at the beginning of the fight. Would I need Observe or Observe in Detail for this?
Perception, in case its needed
[ Spoiler ]
-1 to TN, rolls are: 5, 17, 3, 5, 5
grendel
Jul 27 2005, 03:07 PM
QUOTE (Sedna) |
grendel, I was just going by the quote here, nothing more (which is where I got "round" from). You hadn't confirmed or denied: is there a canon absolute cap of any kind on weapons which aren't supermachinegun class? ie. (and probably most relevantly) pistols? |
No, there is no cap. The only limit is dictated by the weapon's action. SA weapons fire one round per simple action. SS weapons fire once per simple action as well, but can only fire once per phase even though characters get two simple actions per phase.
grendel
Jul 27 2005, 03:11 PM
QUOTE (bclements @ Jul 27 2005, 06:54 AM) |
Ok, how's the visablity? I'm looking primarly for anyone targeting me or Marquis, secondarly for the couple in the middle at the beginning of the fight. Would I need Observe or Observe in Detail for this? |
You'll need to expend an Observe in Detail action since the area is covered in a combination of standard gray and IR smoke, making visual perception difficult if not impossible. From your position, you can barely make out the vehicles against the back wall, as well as what's probably the couple in the middle of the fight. Both of them appear to be motionless on the ground. You don't see anyone else up, nor does anyone appear to be aiming at you.
bclements
Jul 27 2005, 04:21 PM
Ok, Observe in Detail, then Switch to FA on my assault rifle. You want me to IC post this? Or wait till next combat round (if there is any)?
grendel
Jul 27 2005, 04:35 PM
Switching modes on a cybernetically controlled smartgun is a free action. Post in IC because we're rolling initiative again after your action.
Slipshade
Jul 27 2005, 07:16 PM
QUOTE (Scrapheap) |
What the frag am I doing? Raiding a corp front with a carload of fraggin' kids, a decker not much older, and a parazoology consultant who probably saw his first fraggin' firefight yesterday! I'm gonna get them all fraggin' greased. |
I think it is more along the lines of us getting you greased.
bclements
Jul 27 2005, 07:20 PM
Once more into the breech: Initative is 15
As an aside, I use the irony.com diceroller. It's pretty convient to use (for the simple fact that I don't think I can get away with breaking out the d6's at work), but the problem is that it automatically explodes the 6's. For some reason, I feel that I just wasted the 48 I rolled while determining that initative score. It could be better used for, I don't know, for some impossible athletic test that I'm sure grendel is going to call on me to make soon. Like jumping onto the 'Blimp of DOOM!'
Now, back to your regularly scheduled garage shoot-out...
Shadow
Jul 27 2005, 07:22 PM
You can use the SRcomps dice roller, its pretty good. That is if you can install it. You don't need to install the whole SRcomp, just the .exe that is the dice roller.
Sedna
Jul 27 2005, 07:28 PM
QUOTE |
I feel that I just wasted the 48 I rolled |
You have the new record, bclements. That
far eclipses what I rolled for Disguise, way back when ("yesterday") when we were trying to crash the
Paradigm Shift.
Another option for dice rolling, although it also explodes the 6's, is
Dashifen's.
grendel
Jul 27 2005, 07:32 PM
Bastard: initiative for Marquis please.
WinterRat1
Jul 27 2005, 07:45 PM
QUOTE |
Like jumping onto the 'Blimp of DOOM!' |
You forgot the trademark
Sedna
Jul 27 2005, 07:49 PM
"Jumping onto ..."
Someone planning on doing a Dr Strangelove, here?
bclements
Jul 27 2005, 07:51 PM
QUOTE (Sedna) |
QUOTE | I feel that I just wasted the 48 I rolled |
You have the new record, bclements. That far eclipses what I rolled for Disguise, way back when ("yesterday") when we were trying to crash the Paradigm Shift.
|
At least you got to use that one. That 48 goes *poof* after the first 6 for initiative for Tony.
And any dice that roll that good for me I'm using until I roll all 1's on a quickdraw test and accidently punch myself in the face or something.
bclements
Jul 27 2005, 07:55 PM
QUOTE (Sedna) |
"Jumping onto ..."
Someone planning on doing a Dr Strangelove, here? |
Hey, you gotta relax and learn to love the bomb. Or Blimp of DOOM!tm, as it were.
Bastard
Jul 28 2005, 05:34 AM
Initiative 8+3d6
[ Spoiler ]
16
5,2,1
grendel
Jul 28 2005, 05:47 AM
Marquis is up on 16, followed by Tony on 15.
Bastard
Jul 28 2005, 06:46 AM
I am first with that horseshit initiative! Karma Gods love me!
Is there another target available?
By the way...on another note...what ettiquette roll do I make for LitS Shadowland? And that is not working on the same time line as the IC right?
Edit: And what is your yahoo ID?
grendel
Jul 28 2005, 06:57 AM
A quick glance can confirm that the woman in red is still in the same location you observed her in last time, although it looks as if she's watching you. No other targets are immediately available unless you want to spend a simple action to perceive in detail.
Matrix etiquette is required to access Shadowland. You can default to etiquette or to charisma, your choice. The timeline is roughly synonymous with the current IC.
My yahoo ID is Vortagion.
Bastard
Jul 28 2005, 07:06 AM
Perception 6
[ Spoiler ]
32,5,3,3,3,1 ...I wish all those sixes meant something
Sedna
Jul 28 2005, 02:23 PM
paul, take the next post -- I'll follow. (Alleycat should get there around 11:20.)
WinterRat1
Jul 28 2005, 02:50 PM
Scrap, Slip- Go ahead and keep going. Iris immediately busies herself in the documents, and the kids are trying to play it cool, like they know what's going on, and they quieted down and have been acting 'professional' since Iris arrives and John goes into 'biz' mode. That's a general guideline for what's happening with the NPCs. Since my post time is still limited that should give you enough detail to keep rolling forward.
When you get to the clinic, if you astrally project Slip, you'll see the two KE guards sitting in front of a TV in the front lobby area with (what else?) coffee and donuts.
Scrap, in answer to your question to Iris, she'll tell you she's passable at handling electronical security, as long as it isn't anything really hardcore. Basic stuff, nothing too complicated.
Let me know if there's any more detail you guys need from me to post.
Sedna/Paul- Keep going, your plan is fine, assume Tin Star arrives 5 minutes late, per his earlier discussion with Alleycat on the phone that Sedna posted.
Sedna
Jul 28 2005, 03:05 PM
Actually,
Alleycat called eleven minutes late
WinterRat1
Jul 28 2005, 03:11 PM
Ah whatever. Close enough for an off the top of the head guess.
Sedna
Jul 28 2005, 03:58 PM
This seems to be my day for apologies, specific and general. Put it down to a currently less-than-efficient self-censoring system, a number of projects that are
finally almost done (!), and a general desire/seeking for across-the-board LitS consistency (which has in the past been compared to herding cats: GMs tend to be autocrats, and individual gaming groups are not democracies

).
In other words, anything I say today, take with a tablespoon of salt
banditf50
Jul 28 2005, 04:10 PM
Hey, as a cat owner I take offense to that comment. My cat listens very well . . as long as your calling him to dinner

That is a hilarious quote Sedna and I gurantee you that I will be repeating those words in the future. I'll be sure to give you credit.
grendel
Jul 28 2005, 04:41 PM
Some in my gaming group would accuse me of being tyrannical, but it's a baseless accusation. They're just a small handful of whiny losers which I will crush mercilessly beneath my heel.
Marquis can make out what possibly might be the shape of another assailant, crouched in the smoke at the southern end of the concrete pillar which he is taking cover behind.
Scrapheap
Jul 28 2005, 07:19 PM
Slip-
Feel free to post us up to your astral scouting.
WR1 (and possibly other GMs)-
What is involved in vehicle identification? Plates? Transponders? Etc? How easy would they be to disable? Just yanking a fuse, or major modification?
Slipshade
Jul 28 2005, 07:46 PM
Scrap - I may not be able to post until tomorrow
Scrapheap
Jul 28 2005, 08:23 PM
No, you must do it NOW!
Kidding of course. RL comes first.
Sedna
Jul 28 2005, 09:04 PM
Don't I know it!
WinterRat (only!):
[ Spoiler ]
I don't know -- would Blaze recognise Alleycat astrally, at this point? He didn't have all that good a lock on her when he rolled astral perception before -- not a single success.
paul -- I'm just needing that one answer, and then I'll write the next post.
paul_HArkonen
Jul 29 2005, 02:32 AM
um... what one answer? the only thing I see is the OOC comment for winterrat (which I haven't looked at)
maybe I'm not getting an IC post... if I'm not that's bad.
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