Most RFID tags have a signal rating of 1, which means they can be interfaced with at 40 m.
Now if my Hacker was able to take control of a larger signal generator (A cell tower for example), is it possible to trace the signal of the RFID tag? Obviously I may not be able to locate it down to a single item, but it should be possible to put it within a 40-50 m area.
I'm picturing something akin to a selective sound filter, where I parse away all communications that are not on a specific non-standard frequency.
Thoughts?
Full Version: RFIDs and You
The 40m limit is how far the signal of tag travels before it is indistinguisable from ambient noise. This means that a standard RFID tag can not be detected further away than 40m, not matter the size of your aerial.
However you could cause it to activate within the area of the powerful transmitter, then track it by the interaction with the LANs. Sort of a matrix "beacon".
However you could cause it to activate within the area of the powerful transmitter, then track it by the interaction with the LANs. Sort of a matrix "beacon".
One of the things I like abut this is that tags act as pseudo-trackers now. You set one up as subscribed to your commlink (or someone elses that you are hacked into...) and run your track proram to follow it's progress, so long as it's not jammed or in a dead area, you'll know within a few meters of where it's at.
RFID won't be able to emit farrer than 40m anyway. So even if the hacker is able to emit a few kilometers, he won't receive the signal emitted from the RFID.
Look at the following schema:
(((( A ))))
((((((((((((((((((((((((( B )))))))))))))))))))))))))
You see that A emit much less than B... So, A is able to pick up B, but B won't recieve anything from A, so this is a one way communication.
If you boost the signal from the RFID with a signal generator, it will be able to emit to the range of the generator.
Look at the following schema:
((((A))))
.......((((B))))
..............(((©)))
....................((((D))))
In that schema, A and D can't communicate at all beween one another. But if B and C regenerate the signals emited from A and D, they can talk together.
Look at the following schema:
(((( A ))))
((((((((((((((((((((((((( B )))))))))))))))))))))))))
You see that A emit much less than B... So, A is able to pick up B, but B won't recieve anything from A, so this is a one way communication.
If you boost the signal from the RFID with a signal generator, it will be able to emit to the range of the generator.
Look at the following schema:
((((A))))
.......((((B))))
..............(((©)))
....................((((D))))
In that schema, A and D can't communicate at all beween one another. But if B and C regenerate the signals emited from A and D, they can talk together.
Nikoli--Basically I'm using that idea as a way to track someone down who I don't know where they are.
Team gets hired for extraction or wetwork. If the individual has a Security RFID, hack the system, find the frequency and start tracking. Most Security RFIDS will trigger alerts if their signal gets cut off, thus the people wearing them will probably avoid dead zones.
Team gets hired for extraction or wetwork. If the individual has a Security RFID, hack the system, find the frequency and start tracking. Most Security RFIDS will trigger alerts if their signal gets cut off, thus the people wearing them will probably avoid dead zones.
Jester--I don't think communication is necessary...I'm just trying to plocalize a signal. finding the red ball in green grass can be hard if you're two inches away from the grass, but step back and look at the whole lawn and you can see it.
The RL analogy is triangulating a cel phone. As long as it is on it will interact with nearby nodes and routers, therefore it is trackable.
| QUOTE (Jrayjoker) |
| The RL analogy is triangulating a cel phone. As long as it is on it will interact with nearby nodes and routers, therefore it is trackable. |
True. That was my 2nd example.
exactly JRayjoker
I just like being pedantic, 
damn, you stole my topic title from "system's guide to paranoia" before I could post it
to hell with you !
to hell with you !
What, you like to be pedantic too? Lets start a club!
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| damn, you stole my topic title from "system's guide to paranoia" before I could post it to hell with you ! |
Sorry! If you had let me know in advance I would have used something else...it just seemed so catchy.
so to locate a person with a rfid implant one have to be about 40 meters away or less. hmm, could be a interesting find waldo scenario as the signal keeps walking in and out of range 
btw, 40 meters is a lot if you just want to use it as a shop anti-theft system. in theory one could set it of just by walking around inside the shop or something...
btw, 40 meters is a lot if you just want to use it as a shop anti-theft system. in theory one could set it of just by walking around inside the shop or something...
The tags used for anti-theft probably have a signal rating of 0, which would be narrowed down to 3 m.
makes more sense. even more so if one is talking about portal like directional antenna. only if both of them see the same signal its acted upon...
hell, forget about the ladys counting cash. just walk in, grab what you need and walk out. the portal will read the items and bill you for it, based on the info in the comlink.
lets just hope it does not register something your wearing or carrying from somewhere else as a item in the shop
hmm, digital shoplifting, fake comlink ID
i wonder tho, if one is under 18 or whatever, will the liquor store doors even open?
hell, forget about the ladys counting cash. just walk in, grab what you need and walk out. the portal will read the items and bill you for it, based on the info in the comlink.
lets just hope it does not register something your wearing or carrying from somewhere else as a item in the shop
hmm, digital shoplifting, fake comlink ID
i wonder tho, if one is under 18 or whatever, will the liquor store doors even open?
And or tags used by anti theft systems are traced by the system using GPS software to determine if they're leaving the vicinity of the store as well.
Actually, merchandise tracking RID's should be rating 1. Inventory from a single transponder for the whole store in most cases.
The easiest way to track someone with a RFID implanted on their person is to hack into it while within the 40 m (or if you have the device ID, hack it via VR and edit it's subscriber list to connect to your commlink of choice, then track it via that link.
The easiest way to track someone with a RFID implanted on their person is to hack into it while within the 40 m (or if you have the device ID, hack it via VR and edit it's subscriber list to connect to your commlink of choice, then track it via that link.
Rating 0 seems more likely. They'll have localized readers. After all, they don't really care if there's a can of beans in the ladies room, just how many are in the 'beans' section and how many are leaving the store (generally through the entrance).
GPS? Fat chance.
GPS? Fat chance.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| Rating 0 seems more likely. They'll have localized readers. After all, they don't really care if there's a can of beans in the ladies room, just how many are in the 'beans' section and how many are leaving the store (generally through the entrance). GPS? Fat chance. |
Fat chance? hell a rating 6 mapsoft is only 30 nuyen. Just spend 30 nuyen on that, get a halfway decent agent bam you have something calculating if something is still within the premesis or being stolen. Not that expensive.
And the rating 1, 40m is the range touted by RFID propnents for store inventory control today. So, yes, I do see that as being the standard for store inventory tracking purposes.
Pg 212, RFID's have a signal rating 1, 40m.
Pg 212, RFID's have a signal rating 1, 40m.
remember if there are 3-4 antannae in a store the exact location of each tag can be tracked
Like kremlin said. You have two choices:
Pour more money into the antenaes, which are a one time cost, and make the RFID on the products as cheap as humanly possible (which has a higher start-up cost, but lower cost over time) or get one or two cheap antennaes and invest more per item. Unless you're selling ferraris, the first option is probably better. Imagine if the cost difference between rating 1 and rating 0 is a measly $.20. How many sales will it take to make it worth the $2,000 antennae, and how long should that take?
Pour more money into the antenaes, which are a one time cost, and make the RFID on the products as cheap as humanly possible (which has a higher start-up cost, but lower cost over time) or get one or two cheap antennaes and invest more per item. Unless you're selling ferraris, the first option is probably better. Imagine if the cost difference between rating 1 and rating 0 is a measly $.20. How many sales will it take to make it worth the $2,000 antennae, and how long should that take?
To use such a setup, a Signal of 1 is required: 40m Range... luckily, that is the standart Signal for any RFID.
A Signal 0 setup would be a shop with only one, perhaps two scanners at the door, billing everyone who leaves.
A Signal 0 setup would be a shop with only one, perhaps two scanners at the door, billing everyone who leaves.
and it would not cover inventory, only purchases/theft deterrence
Please note, standard RFID tags cost 1 Nuyen per 20 and have a Rating of 1 (Signal, Response, Firewall, System) out of the box. (pg 319)
They are so common it's frightening.
Please note, standard RFID tags cost 1 Nuyen per 20 and have a Rating of 1 (Signal, Response, Firewall, System) out of the box. (pg 319)
They are so common it's frightening.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| and it would not cover inventory, only purchases/theft deterrence Please note, standard RFID tags cost 1 Nuyen per 20 and have a Rating of 1 (Signal, Response, Firewall, System) out of the box. (pg 319) They are so common it's frightening. |
Thats because they're everywhere and in everything (which is what companies are starting to strive for anyways atleast for inventory control and anti-theft).
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| Please note, standard RFID tags cost 1 Nuyen per 20 and have a Rating of 1 (Signal, Response, Firewall, System) out of the box. (pg 319) |
I have no idea what the conversion rate is, but with a 1:1 conversion that's 5 cents a pop.
If you're looking at two cans of beans and one costs $1 and one costs $1.05, but they're otherwise identical, which one do you buy?
How much do the rating 0 chips cost, and how much do the detectors cost? If you give me that, maybe I'll change my vote
Rating 0 are not for sale in the gear listing.
the 0 rating is reserved for very specific uses.
the typical RFID that users will ever see outside of bodyware are rating 1 or 3 (Standard vs Stealth & Security).
the 0 rating is reserved for very specific uses.
the typical RFID that users will ever see outside of bodyware are rating 1 or 3 (Standard vs Stealth & Security).
This is exactly why a runner would never use this crap. You can be to easily tracked everywhere you go.
| QUOTE (Shadow) |
| This is exactly why a runner would never use this crap. You can be to easily tracked everywhere you go. |
Uhhhh...duh? Theres a whole section about that with RFID's and such.
Just because a runner isn't going to be wearing gear with RFID's in it doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't going to or that its any less important that we know about this stuff.
besides, carry a rating 4 jammer, it'll kill all RFID's while allowing your wired or skinlinked gear to continue to function. you did get your signal + ECCM past 4, right?
Besides which, a runner can easily use RFIDs to run counter-intelligence. After all, if a corp thinks its tracking you by an RFID, you can easily plant the RFID on some stooge and have them chasing after the red herring.
or feed the ID to some devil rats.
What frightens me is the possibility of RFID's in bullets.
What frightens me is the possibility of RFID's in bullets.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| What frightens me is the possibility of RFID's in bullets. |
Meh, that's not frightening. That's smart. Certainly a hell of a lot cheaper than those damn transponder bullets in the Cannon Companion, and a lot more reliable, too.
what if they aren't your RFID's?
One idea I had was to use RFID's to make it look like I had something I didn't. IE, inside my ultrasecure maglocked gunsafe that holds my assault rifles, etc someone could do a scan and instead of detecting 12 tricked out assault rifles it detects the RFID's for various sporting rifles that would be legal to own or far less worthwhile to steal.
Nice.
Or it detects cheeseburgers....
The only thing that is actually costly about Guns in SR4 is the upgraded Camera of the Smartlink.
hehe. meanwhile what is inside is several pissed off and hungry demon rats that have been implanted with RFID's to look like various valuables.
hmm, rfids in bullets. not the usual deforming kind if so. that would most likely make one hell of a mess of that rfid...
I don't know... the world's smallest RFID right now is pretty tiny:
http://www.smartcodecorp.com/newsroom/13-01-04.asp
As long as the RFID was reasonably sturdy, you can probably shove it in there pretty easily.
http://www.smartcodecorp.com/newsroom/13-01-04.asp
As long as the RFID was reasonably sturdy, you can probably shove it in there pretty easily.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Sep 21 2005, 04:38 PM) |
| hmm, rfids in bullets. not the usual deforming kind if so. that would most likely make one hell of a mess of that rfid... |
If it was a Core-Lock type slug you could put the RFID at the back in the base. As long at it was able built on a solid enough platform to survive the Gs it'd be fine.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| the 0 rating is reserved for very specific uses. |
Can anyone tell me why this is?
Also, using a jammer to block out RFID is like shouting so no one hears the car alarm. It really isn't the best solution for a 'stealth' type operation.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| If you're looking at two cans of beans and one costs $1 and one costs $1.05, but they're otherwise identical, which one do you buy? How much do the rating 0 chips cost, and how much do the detectors cost? If you give me that, maybe I'll change my vote |
So your common variety of RFIDs cost 1Y for a pack of 20 eg 5c each (that is store bought retail price!) Whereas a producer probably gets them for 1c each or less so as a retailer are you going to order 5200 cases (100 cases per week) of 48 cans of beans for 249,600Y (0.50Y per can which you retail for 1.00Y) which could quite easily walk out the door in the bag of a shoplifter because you only spent 75,000Y on 3 security guards (1 on shift at any time) for the store or are you going to spend 252,096Y on the same number of RFID enabled cans which you sell for 1.01Y for (same profit for store). There are a number of areas where RFID introduction would increase costs but the savings would probably offset them initially and then make it more profitable!
Consider your average 7-11/Stuffer Shack/local grocery store ala 2070
unRFID'd
Manager
Shift supervisor x2
Checkout operators x9 (3 shifts of 3 workers)
Shelf Stockers x3 (3 shifts of 1 worker)
Security Guard x6 (3 shifts of 2 guards - one working the floor the other monitoring cameras, out the back, on break etc)
Total = 21 workers
RFID'd
Manager
RFID Tech - possibly sub-contracted out
Checkout Operator/Stocker x3 (3 shifts of 1 worker)
Security Guard x3 (3 shifts of 1 worker - more grunt work so cheaper as less staff to guard)
Total = 8 Workers
Retail works for the retailer
Too be truthful evil1i, the second shift you detailed seems more like the shifts today, sans the security guards. Very few retail establishments have on site security outside of the manager.
But you are right, much smaller staff, also, faster more reliable inventory control and tracking.
But you are right, much smaller staff, also, faster more reliable inventory control and tracking.
i dont get why you cut out the shift super and shelf stockers in the second version, but kept security guards? The numbers aren't going to drop from 21 to 8, at BEST, with RFID, the store will get rid of 6 employees (the guards) going from 21 to 15.
However, they also won't like only have 1 Tech working, they'll need atleast two of those (and hope nothing breaks on the graveyard shift, or have whoever works that shift be slightly trained so they can temp. fix whatever it is that does break.)
However, they also won't like only have 1 Tech working, they'll need atleast two of those (and hope nothing breaks on the graveyard shift, or have whoever works that shift be slightly trained so they can temp. fix whatever it is that does break.)
Or be enough of a wire monkey to swap out with a spare.
bingo. if reader stops responding then plug out the old one, take it to the back room and get a new one.
even simpler if its like todays computers where you have to connect colored plug into same color socket
hell, the local store dont have a resident tech, but they still use barcodes for scanning the stuff that comes in and goes out, as well as placing orders by computer.
of everything else fails, break out the price list and the hand held calculator with a paper roll
even simpler if its like todays computers where you have to connect colored plug into same color socket
hell, the local store dont have a resident tech, but they still use barcodes for scanning the stuff that comes in and goes out, as well as placing orders by computer.
of everything else fails, break out the price list and the hand held calculator with a paper roll
what is this paper roll you speak of? I'm familiar with the words, just not in that order.
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