Hi folks,
The FAQ said that a character conversion guide from SR3 -> SR4 would be posted on the website. A lot of Dumpshockers have expressed the opinion that since such conversion is so fraught with peril, it may never happen.
Any word from someone in a position to know? Is it still planned? Has it been started? And when might we expect it?
Or will the Powers That Be eventually just tweak and bless the best proposal they see on Dumpshock for such a conversion?
--K
Full Version: SR3 -> SR4 character conversion
Basically, what i would do is grab the chart from SR3 where it says X represents Y level of skill relative to most folks and find the comparative desription on the chart in SR 4.
Where you have several skills at comparable levels in what would otherwise be in a group, have the group at the average level.
Cyberware should port over to one degree or another.
There are so many mechanics changes that happen out of this that it's not funny for some character types. SL goes from a must have .5 loss to an eye mod or an equally as powerful HUD add-on, etc.
Where you have several skills at comparable levels in what would otherwise be in a group, have the group at the average level.
Cyberware should port over to one degree or another.
There are so many mechanics changes that happen out of this that it's not funny for some character types. SL goes from a must have .5 loss to an eye mod or an equally as powerful HUD add-on, etc.
So, basically... save the pain, rebuild. 
Converting SR3 to SR4 is as about as easy as converting SR3 to D20.
Easier to just rebuild and throw some karma at him.
Easier to just rebuild and throw some karma at him.
For critters; you could compair the ones that have been converted already with the old ones, and try to repeat the process. For NPCīs; you had to rebuild them before too, because they were always the wrong powerlevel anyways. For player characters... itīs 10 years difference, so why not just make new characters? Get a fresh start. For playing old characters in the old timeline with the new rules; remake still. Use the normal creation rules, then add the total amount of karma the character had, to improve it. Karma rewards seem to be the same, right?
Some things could still be said to help people converting stuff. I would like them to do it, but itīs not a big deal.
Some things could still be said to help people converting stuff. I would like them to do it, but itīs not a big deal.
Right, I know, these are generally the opinions I hear on the forum.
However... the fine folks at FanPro did promise a conversion guide, and I'm interested in that. So what I'm asking now is... do they still plan on this? And if so, when?
--K
However... the fine folks at FanPro did promise a conversion guide, and I'm interested in that. So what I'm asking now is... do they still plan on this? And if so, when?
--K
Hear, hear! I agree with the fine krishcane; we were promised a conversion guide, and we want one!!! Regardless of how impossible it is! 
Seriously though, it'd be a great help, if we had one...
Seriously though, it'd be a great help, if we had one...
i agree as well, could use it to remodel some of the SR3 adventure modules to SR4, already did "First Run" and thinking about doing "Missions" but dont know if i want to go through the hassle
that cyber zombie in "Supernova" was a pain in the hoop
that cyber zombie in "Supernova" was a pain in the hoop
| QUOTE (mintcar) |
| For player characters... itīs 10 years difference, so why not just make new characters? |
It's 5 years... if you do the jump.
Not that all characters have a linear timeline to begin with...
| QUOTE (mintcar) |
| Use the normal creation rules, then add the total amount of karma the character had, to improve it. Karma rewards seem to be the same, right? |
Problem with that is, while the karma awards have remained pretty much the same in SR4, the value of an individual karma point has depriciated. I my conversions (using the rebuild & add karma method) its seems that characters require 175% (give or take) the amount of karma they earned to get them to the approximate point they were in SR3. Note that this is dealing with initiated magicians, though, so that figure might be skewed.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
It's 5 years... if you do the jump. Not that all characters have a linear timeline to begin with... |
Yeah, and some are elves
Try using 500BP.
PS: Or Dwarves. Except Orks/Trolls that couldn't affort treatment... or Shapeshifters.
PS: Or Dwarves. Except Orks/Trolls that couldn't affort treatment... or Shapeshifters.
easy convertion for orks ..... convert to retirement. If you started you character in SR2 especially, you'll be grandpa tusker. 'Course then you actually get to be the old crazy shaman in the barrens that everyone goes to for broken and cryptic answers, because the old 'old crazy shaman in the barrens that everyone goes to for broken and cryptic answers' just died of old age.
Or you are a succesful, rich & retired ork runner who does use the old cliches and dies with 35, as your human chummer won't to do with 55. But let's don't get too off-topic
Conversion from SR2 to SR3 was a pain in the ass and i doubt that it will be even possbile to convert chars to SR4. Just build them again, give them a lot of karma until you feel the new version is right. That's the way we will do, if the printed SR4 version ever arrives at my FLGS.
Conversion from SR2 to SR3 was a pain in the ass and i doubt that it will be even possbile to convert chars to SR4. Just build them again, give them a lot of karma until you feel the new version is right. That's the way we will do, if the printed SR4 version ever arrives at my FLGS.
| QUOTE |
| if the printed SR4 version ever arrives at my FLGS |
know the feeling. I keep hearing "It'll be here next week". I was told that the first time three weeks ago. Occasionally they throw in a day "Tuesday", "okay, Friday", "sorry, Monday". Ergh
Back off topic again (hehe) at least all my ork characters always die.
I was trying to think out a magic convertion for initiates. I was thinking of keeping their grade the same, but halving their magic attribute.
The best idea I can think of is save your money and stick with SR3. If you like something about SR4, port it over the 3... it'll be easier.
| QUOTE (Reaver) |
| The best idea I can think of is save your money and stick with SR3. If you like something about SR4, port it over the 3... it'll be easier. |
unless you're talking about the dice system
* bump *
O, Powers That Be, please reply....
Will there be a canon conversion?
--K
O, Powers That Be, please reply....
Will there be a canon conversion?
--K
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) | ||
unless you're talking about the dice system |
LOL, no thank you. I don't need a dice system that was designed for a 4 year old.
How about characters fairly near chargen? I'm looking at converting a starting decker/shaman character, and Holy Jesus is 400 build points not near enough. I don't even know if 500'll be enough, not unless he suddenly turns into an elf or dwarf or something. Contacts are far more expensive; damn near every one of his skills has become a skill group; attributes are expensive; and of course I had to write cybereyes into his backstory. What a headache.
| QUOTE (Reaver) | ||||
LOL, no thank you. I don't need a dice system that was designed for a 4 year old. |
Far more effective dice system than in sr3 or D20.
Oh and onto Eyeless. Your problem stems from the fact that well 400 bp, generaly gets you the same power level as you had in sr3 out of chargen (yeah I know people will argue with me here but from the sessions I've run you generaly end up the same power level in all honesty. You can still do the same type of things. Yeah the numbers LOOK lower, but just because they look lower doesn't mean they aren't just as powerful.)
Heh, no offense but yeah right. Even 1 rank in all the skills I had a 3 or better in on my old charsheet costs me about 70 BP; add in half the spells, the Mage quality and mentor spirit (which really does have to be there), most of the contacts and a significant portion of the gear and that leaves me with about 100 points left for attributes, 10 of which have to be burned into Magic because of the cybereyes.
Probably it's true in the average case; I guess my character's just a huge munchkin powerbuild or something.
Probably it's true in the average case; I guess my character's just a huge munchkin powerbuild or something.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Heh, no offense but yeah right. Even 1 rank in all the skills I had a 3 or better in on my old charsheet costs me about 70 BP; add in half the spells, the Mage quality and mentor spirit (which really does have to be there), most of the contacts and a significant portion of the gear and that leaves me with about 100 points left for attributes, 10 of which have to be burned into Magic because of the cybereyes. Probably it's true in the average case; I guess my character's just a huge munchkin powerbuild or something. |
And were you using priority or CP's for that?
Secondly alot of skills have been consolidated. Not to mention thats rather rediculous. Lets do a little math here. I'm going to guess thats 7 skill groups you're doing there. Taking a guess you grabbed Sorcery, and Conjuring, as well as Cracking and Electronics. Add on you probably grabbed firearms and Infiltration groups and posibly influence. You probably have some skills in there you don't need at all and didn't use in 3rd ed.
Slap on no reason at all to need cybereyes with the advent of skinlinked glasses with image link and trodes. Theres no reason at all to get cyberware for your char here. Slap on the fact you can have spells and are not limited to 6 force in chargen. Not to mention the uses of spirits now. And that its decently cheap to get good programs and a good comlink. Yeah I'm prety certain its rather easy to pull off a character thats as good as his sr3 counterpart out of chargen, if not better. If ONLY for the reason out of chargen, if he so wanted he could chuck a force 12 manabolt your way, something a sr3 char could never do.
Thirdly you're doing direct comparisons which isn't right. If you wan't I'll take a little time and work up a shaman/decker for you, thats not the equivilent to blakkies twinked out min maxed one. I'll make him as generic as possible so if you wanted you could just take it as a template and mold in your particulars without much work.
Why are you taking cybereyes? Retinal dulpicators? If it is just simple vision augmentation or Smartlink that's not the way you should be going.
Contacts aren't exactly the same thing they were before either. There are now rules for you to buy gear on the blackmarket w/o going through a Contact. Mind you in SR4 you actually pay more for the contact with better connections. In SR3 that janitor cost you the same as the mob boss or high-end fixer, assuming they were at the same loyalty to you. So depending on your contact list that can end up costing you a lot more.
To spend 1 point each on that many skills, assuming you aren't going any Skill Groups, you would have had to burn 50+ SR3 BP to get 3 in those Skills (setting aside that in some cases skills get combined)? Do you have easy assess to at least the SR4 list?
Kinda sounds like in the process of trying to replicate the SR3 optimized character you made poor SR4 choices.
Contacts aren't exactly the same thing they were before either. There are now rules for you to buy gear on the blackmarket w/o going through a Contact. Mind you in SR4 you actually pay more for the contact with better connections. In SR3 that janitor cost you the same as the mob boss or high-end fixer, assuming they were at the same loyalty to you. So depending on your contact list that can end up costing you a lot more.
To spend 1 point each on that many skills, assuming you aren't going any Skill Groups, you would have had to burn 50+ SR3 BP to get 3 in those Skills (setting aside that in some cases skills get combined)? Do you have easy assess to at least the SR4 list?
Kinda sounds like in the process of trying to replicate the SR3 optimized character you made poor SR4 choices.
Thanks but no; I'll get it eventually. I've got to learn the ins and outs of the system myself, and attempting the impossible is just exactly the way to do it.
I can't get rid of the eyes though; it's kinda a big part of the character's backstory. (*points at nick*)
While I'm mucking around in there I might spend some cash on headware/bioware too, though there's not much to actually get yet. I wonder what the SR4 equivalent of the encephalon will be like?
As for skills, no they weren't all skill groups. He actually had no skill in firearms, if you can believe it, and only Ettiquite as opposed to Influence. He did have Computer and Computer B/R though, as well as Sorcery and Conjuring; basically all the skills that suddenly became groups. As well as a few other bits and pieces; they add up quick though.
Hm, what would the equivalent of all those L2 database contacts (out of Matrix) be worth in straight BP now?
I can't get rid of the eyes though; it's kinda a big part of the character's backstory. (*points at nick*)
While I'm mucking around in there I might spend some cash on headware/bioware too, though there's not much to actually get yet. I wonder what the SR4 equivalent of the encephalon will be like?As for skills, no they weren't all skill groups. He actually had no skill in firearms, if you can believe it, and only Ettiquite as opposed to Influence. He did have Computer and Computer B/R though, as well as Sorcery and Conjuring; basically all the skills that suddenly became groups. As well as a few other bits and pieces; they add up quick though.
Hm, what would the equivalent of all those L2 database contacts (out of Matrix) be worth in straight BP now?
Seems to be covered by Data Search.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Thanks but no; I'll get it eventually. I've got to learn the ins and outs of the system myself, and attempting the impossible is just exactly the way to do it. I can't get rid of the eyes though; it's kinda a big part of the character's backstory. (*points at nick*) While I'm mucking around in there I might spend some cash on headware/bioware too, though there's not much to actually get yet. I wonder what the SR4 equivalent of the encephalon will be like?As for skills, no they weren't all skill groups. He actually had no skill in firearms, if you can believe it, and only Ettiquite as opposed to Influence. He did have Computer and Computer B/R though, as well as Sorcery and Conjuring; basically all the skills that suddenly became groups. As well as a few other bits and pieces; they add up quick though. Hm, what would the equivalent of all those L2 database contacts (out of Matrix) be worth in straight BP now? |
Well 70 points just to get all those skills you had at 3 at rank 1? still find that hard to believe but that asside.
The contacts it depends. Conection and loyalty are the two factors in a contact now. How well connected they are, and how loyal they are to the character. Someone who say is a big player in the denver data haven, that you know as a aquaintence or friend in passing might be loyalty 1 but connections 4 or 5 depending. Depends realy on how you want those contacts to be. Gives you alot more flexability. Like you might have a beat cop who's been your best friend since forever but, he's just a beat cop loyalty 5 connections 1.
All depends. And since you have a good background it seems figuring that out shouldn't be too hard
.And I think I'll still make a general template type thing, or prehapse a char i'll throw at my players later to show that it can be done and to prehapse give you a few ideas
.Oh and note. With magic 4 you can still through force 8 spells
. Course with the cyberware you probably have to purchase 5 to do that .
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Sep 26 2005, 09:20 AM) |
| As for skills, no they weren't all skill groups. He actually had no skill in firearms, if you can believe it, and only Ettiquite as opposed to Influence. He did have Computer and Computer B/R though, as well as Sorcery and Conjuring; basically all the skills that suddenly became groups. As well as a few other bits and pieces; they add up quick though. |
I was talking about not taking any Group skills at all. Yes, a mage does burn a bit more if you try to be both a full Sorcery and Conjurer. I also do find myself spending more like 150BP on Skills, and coming up quite short of the 50% limit on Attribute BP, more-so for mages. For mages by including Edge (which i'm currently likely a lot) and Magic my mages are hitting about 50%.
You really need to look at Negatives when you are mage to come up with BP. You gave up the 'free' one by taking the eyes. If you don't want any other cyber, and little bio you can still go for it. But consider the Platelette Factory, or some of the Damage Compensators at least. Definately check out some of the other Negatives too.
How many contacts are you taking? Those add up very, very fast. Even just a street-fixer that won't roll you for a bag of chips is 6BP. Take 4 contacts of note and you have blown at least 20BP or more.
Also spells i do tend to have more a selection that is the size that i would have had at Force 6 in SR3, as opposed to the total number of Spells i did in SR3. SR4 mages do tend to encourage you to think about what kind of mage you want to be as opposed to a do everything mage.
P.S. Getting any cyber/bio for a serious mage (as opposed to sideline mage) is going to hurt a lot in SR4 at least until Street Magic comes out (assuming it has rules for geas). IMO even it hurts a mage even more than in SR3. Did your SR3 character take a geas? Such is the penalty for story.
* bump again *
So, about that character conversion guide for SR3 -> SR4. Any word? Adam, do you know anything about it? Will it exist?
--K
So, about that character conversion guide for SR3 -> SR4. Any word? Adam, do you know anything about it? Will it exist?
--K
| QUOTE (krishcane) |
| * bump again * So, about that character conversion guide for SR3 -> SR4. Any word? Adam, do you know anything about it? Will it exist? --K |
At this rate, I'd say that probably a "No, do it yourself".
Or they have chosen to be tight-lipped so as not to lead us on.
| QUOTE (Jrayjoker) |
| Or they have chosen to be tight-lipped so as not to lead us on. |
Given the public-opinion beating they're taking here (don't know about other forums, etc) I wouldn't be one bit surprised.
I've tried several approaches to converting chars now, and found a few things that work:
1) Calculate how much karma the character is worth, on each skill and attribute, and then raise the corresponding SR4 skill/attribute using that amount of karma. Use the extra karma to raise what's approperiate. Pick gear/cyber/bio as approperiate. The problem comes with Magic... do a case by case basis, and maybe give the char a few 'free' magic points(3 or 4).
2) Remake the char with BPs, then raise stats by the characters earned total karma (best for fairly new chars).
3) Use approximates for what levels represent in SR3 vs SR4. For instance:
Skills(SR3=SR4), 0=0, 1=0, 2=1, 3=2, 4=3, 5=4, 6=5, 7=6, 8=6, 9+=7.
Attributes(SR3=SR4), 1=1, 2=1 or 2, 3= 2 or 3, 4=3 or 4, 5 =4 or 5, 6=5 or 6, 7=6, 8+=7 (Use base attribute, before racial mods).
In all cases, there is a significant need to look at the overall character concept and see what fits and what doesn't, and there are concerns like Edge, skills that didn't exist in SR3(and vice versa), Magic attribute, what Qualities to take...the list goes on.
1) Calculate how much karma the character is worth, on each skill and attribute, and then raise the corresponding SR4 skill/attribute using that amount of karma. Use the extra karma to raise what's approperiate. Pick gear/cyber/bio as approperiate. The problem comes with Magic... do a case by case basis, and maybe give the char a few 'free' magic points(3 or 4).
2) Remake the char with BPs, then raise stats by the characters earned total karma (best for fairly new chars).
3) Use approximates for what levels represent in SR3 vs SR4. For instance:
Skills(SR3=SR4), 0=0, 1=0, 2=1, 3=2, 4=3, 5=4, 6=5, 7=6, 8=6, 9+=7.
Attributes(SR3=SR4), 1=1, 2=1 or 2, 3= 2 or 3, 4=3 or 4, 5 =4 or 5, 6=5 or 6, 7=6, 8+=7 (Use base attribute, before racial mods).
In all cases, there is a significant need to look at the overall character concept and see what fits and what doesn't, and there are concerns like Edge, skills that didn't exist in SR3(and vice versa), Magic attribute, what Qualities to take...the list goes on.
Good concepts, and yeah, a lot of estimates and hard looks at character concepts seem built in.
On the other hand, SR3 characters have also had 5 years to improve themselves since the big Matrix crash. If they're not retired or dead, that's a LOT of time to work out and improve. It seems possible to me to just straight convert skills and attributes (cutting them off at caps where needed) and assume that whatever improvements that represents in SR4 are what the character got done in the intervening 5 years.
The easiest thing mentally for me would be if there were simply an "official" published answer -- even if it were exactly one of the answers you proposed.
--K
On the other hand, SR3 characters have also had 5 years to improve themselves since the big Matrix crash. If they're not retired or dead, that's a LOT of time to work out and improve. It seems possible to me to just straight convert skills and attributes (cutting them off at caps where needed) and assume that whatever improvements that represents in SR4 are what the character got done in the intervening 5 years.
The easiest thing mentally for me would be if there were simply an "official" published answer -- even if it were exactly one of the answers you proposed.
--K
Oh yeah, definately - I want an official guide too!
Personally I'm not converting straight into 2070 though - our campaign will still be 2065, just with the new rules (alot of voluntary headaches there, I know - I'm using SR4 rules to run through system failure...) - so that makes it both harder and easier...
Personally I'm not converting straight into 2070 though - our campaign will still be 2065, just with the new rules (alot of voluntary headaches there, I know - I'm using SR4 rules to run through system failure...) - so that makes it both harder and easier...
So, Adam, now that the 4th edition BBB is shipping, how about some news about a character conversion guide?
--K
--K
Anyone got any news for SR3->SR4 character conversion?
--K
--K
Hey, cool, Shadowrun Missions got updated to SR4. Now, how about a character conversion ruling from SR3 -> SR4?
--K
--K
Do you really expect something different than 'rebuild - spend Karma'?
YES! I expect:
"An SR3 attribute of x = x in SR4.' When converting skills, lump together or divide SR3 skills as necessary, which affects their rating in y manner, and then convert SR3 y to SR4 z, according to the following table.
And most importantly:
When converting magically active characters, the SR4 version receives a magic attribute according to the following table, and initiate grades transport according to this formula."
That's what I expect...
"An SR3 attribute of x = x in SR4.' When converting skills, lump together or divide SR3 skills as necessary, which affects their rating in y manner, and then convert SR3 y to SR4 z, according to the following table.
And most importantly:
When converting magically active characters, the SR4 version receives a magic attribute according to the following table, and initiate grades transport according to this formula."
That's what I expect...
I don't understand why people find it so difficult to just rebuild and spend Karma.
Because it's not always that easy, when you don't used the cash-for-karma rule in SR3 and that karma didn't go into 'total' because it didn't count towards karma pool...and the characters were around for so long that you don't know how many BPs they were built for.
And because it tends to screw over magic characters something fierce, given the very different costs for initiation and the low starting magic in SR4.
And, because for NPCs that isn't viable, and to keep things level it's good to have a quick-and-easy system to quickly convert an NPC and keep him 'to scale'
But mostly - because it was promised
And because it tends to screw over magic characters something fierce, given the very different costs for initiation and the low starting magic in SR4.
And, because for NPCs that isn't viable, and to keep things level it's good to have a quick-and-easy system to quickly convert an NPC and keep him 'to scale'
But mostly - because it was promised
At this point I think a lot of folks simply want to see what system the writers at Fanpro will come up with so they can poke fun at it. Or they don't believe they're going to go through with their promise of a conversion guide, and are simply needling them.
Some people like the comfort of "official rules", even if in cases like this they will be more "offical guidelines". Of course that doesn't rule out them bitching when they get what they wish for.
There actually have been a number of, IMO good**, suggestions posted here in the form of "An SR3 attribute of x = x in SR4" that covers most characters that are directly supported by the SR4 BBB and some suggestions for those that aren't (like magicians with high initiate grades and Metamagics not on the very short BBB list. I suspect that the offical guidelines, if they come out with them, won't be a lot more than that.
** I could be biased though since i posted one of them.
There actually have been a number of, IMO good**, suggestions posted here in the form of "An SR3 attribute of x = x in SR4" that covers most characters that are directly supported by the SR4 BBB and some suggestions for those that aren't (like magicians with high initiate grades and Metamagics not on the very short BBB list. I suspect that the offical guidelines, if they come out with them, won't be a lot more than that.
** I could be biased though since i posted one of them.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| ** I could be biased though since i posted one of them. |
LoL blakkie - nevah!!! I'm sure you're humble enough...
I've already figured out a few ways of converting, depending on the detail needed for the character, and unless the 'official' guide is a lot smoother and easier, I'll probably stick to my own 'system' anyway.
But a guide was promised...and I have a thing for promises being kept... (though regarding info 'to be published' on shadowrunrpg.com, I'm still waiting for the stats on Perianwyr and the list of vehicles we were told were gonna be there, and the translated Shockwaves runs...so...)
| QUOTE (snowRaven) |
| I'm still waiting for the stats on Perianwyr and the list of vehicles we were told were gonna be there, and the translated Shockwaves runs...so...) |
Perianwyr's stats are in Mercurial p 67 and A Killing Glare p 53-54. While those are 2nd edition stats, it's rather trivial to convert it over to 3rd edition.
Oh, I'm fully aware of those stats.
However, brand-new SR3 DotSW stats for him was published in a magazine that I've forgotten the name of, and we were told that write-up on him would appear on the shadowrun homepage about 3 months after the 'zine hit the shelves...same thing for a list of vehicles translated from the german version of SR; published in magazine, supposed to appear on webpage...
However, brand-new SR3 DotSW stats for him was published in a magazine that I've forgotten the name of, and we were told that write-up on him would appear on the shadowrun homepage about 3 months after the 'zine hit the shelves...same thing for a list of vehicles translated from the german version of SR; published in magazine, supposed to appear on webpage...
Snowraven, if you can get the German versions, plenty of people here speak German and would translate for you.
--K
--K
I probably could get the german vehicles, but they'd be kinda useless now anyway
I own Shockenwellen, and know enough german to be able to (painstakingly) translate the runs...but I stopped when I found out they were already translating them (maybe I should get in touch with those ppl again...those runs are interesting, if for nothing else than the backstory with Proteus. I wsa also thinking of running a high-powered european campaign sometime, especially now with the high-end content in System Failure).
Perianwyr I think was stats 'left over' from DotSW, but I may be mistaken...those are mostly for sake of curiosity, since he's one of my favorite dragons =)
I own Shockenwellen, and know enough german to be able to (painstakingly) translate the runs...but I stopped when I found out they were already translating them (maybe I should get in touch with those ppl again...those runs are interesting, if for nothing else than the backstory with Proteus. I wsa also thinking of running a high-powered european campaign sometime, especially now with the high-end content in System Failure).
Perianwyr I think was stats 'left over' from DotSW, but I may be mistaken...those are mostly for sake of curiosity, since he's one of my favorite dragons =)
| QUOTE (snowRaven) |
| those runs are interesting, if for nothing else than the backstory with Proteus. |
Yes, 'interesting' indeed was the fitting term to describe most german Proteus story lines.
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