Drain Brain
Sep 24 2003, 07:22 PM
Okay...
The Remington sports rifles in the BBB are listed as SA. The description says Bolt Action.
I'm fairly sure that there are "Pump" shotguns which are also SA.
That being the case, WHY is a revolver (admittedly single action) SS?
Does it take longer to cock the lever on a revolver than it does to work a bolt or pump a pump?
WHAT IS GOING ON?????
Also (excuse me for utilising the CC rules) why aren't there rules for adding a second barrel - if I want to make a Mad Max style 2 barrel sawn off, I can change a shotgun to break action, but I can't give it any more than 1 round. What's up with that?
EVLTIM
Sep 24 2003, 07:31 PM
Off the top of my head , the revoler in question is a single action revlover , and does need to be cocked with each shot . For me at least with my Blackhawk I need to shif it in my hand or use the other hand to cock it .
Drain Brain
Sep 24 2003, 07:42 PM
Fair enough, EVLTIM, but why then are bolt actions Semi-Auto like, for instance, an Ares Predator. You only need one hand for that!
If you have to prime it between each shot, then surely it should be "SS" under the shadowrun rules, neh? Or am I being
?
Fygg Nuuton
Sep 24 2003, 07:45 PM
sa means semi automatic, ss is single shot. the ares predator is a semi automatic pistol, therefore, it is SA not SS
SA shotguns are not pump-action
EVLTIM
Sep 24 2003, 07:46 PM
I would hazard that it is a double action weapon . Meaning you pull the trigger it goes bang , and the fire arm cocks itself .
As to bolt and pump guns . Pumps are preaty easy to work with once you get it down pat , and the same can be said of a bolt action .
Fygg Nuuton
Sep 24 2003, 07:48 PM
still, it takes longer, the rules are abstract. thats something you have to live with. also, there is no "one in the chamber" rules, although its easy to do IRL. mo headshots, no point bank etc. you need to think abstract
semi automatic and double action are, for the most part, synonomous
Fygg Nuuton
Sep 24 2003, 07:49 PM
bolt action takes quite a while compared to just squeezing a trigger.
IIRC there are no bolt action weapons in canon
EVLTIM
Sep 24 2003, 07:53 PM
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton @ Sep 24 2003, 11:48 AM) |
still, it takes longer, the rules are abstract. thats something you have to live with. also, there is no "one in the chamber" rules, although its easy to do IRL. mo headshots, no point bank etc. you need to think abstract
True . I will not argue that at all. semi automatic and double action are, for the most part, synonomous |
In game terms maybe. in RL . No way . There are a lot of semi autos on the market that are not double action .
And I am preaty sure one of the spoting rifles is listed as bolt action .
BitBasher
Sep 24 2003, 08:18 PM
then the fluff text is boned.. not the first time.
Ed_209a
Sep 24 2003, 08:34 PM
I sincerely doubt BA rifles will ever completely go away. The margin is closing, but there is still an accuracy gap between BA rifles and SA rifles.
When you need the most out of one and only one shot, bolt action is what you need.
Reaver
Sep 24 2003, 08:57 PM
I could see a single-action revolver being SS, but a double-action revolver can be fired pretty much just as rapidly as a semi-auto.
Drain Brain
Sep 24 2003, 08:58 PM
As I said: even in the BBB there are bolt action rifles (see the sport rifle section).
Okay then - is there, anywhere, a SS shotgun? Hmm? I don't think so... and the BA rifles I mentioned are SA too...
Oh and Fygg - I didn't mean that a Predator should be SS... I'm not THAT dense... read it again with a pause between paragraphs and an "it" in the abstract and you'll be with me...
EVLTIM
Sep 24 2003, 09:25 PM
QUOTE (Reaver) |
I could see a single-action revolver being SS, but a double-action revolver can be fired pretty much just as rapidly as a semi-auto. |
Yep for six to eight shots or so .
sir fwank
Sep 25 2003, 03:39 AM
drain brain, not trying to come down hard on you or anything, but why don't you just change it in "your" game. make a house rule for your group. those rifles have been SA from sr1 (or the equivalent, sr1 is weird) and i seriously don't think they will ever change. its just like the damage code for AVS, sr4 isn't going to come out and be like...oh look bolt action rifles, and a new damage code on AVS, and lets make sure everything is balanced like MBW, Enhanced Articulation, Mnemonic Enhancer, Adepts and bioware, etc etc etc...
the whole system is unbalanced, the only thing thats balanced is that everyone has the same condition monitor L-M-S-D.
again, not trying to piss you off or anything just making a general comment.
cheers.
Drain Brain
Sep 25 2003, 07:49 AM
Fair enough, Sir F.
I'm aware of the "house rules rule" style of play and have already implemented such in my campaign, however I wanted to discuss the topic on the forums to assess the opinions of other players and GM's. The topic may also serve to bring the point to the attention of others to such an extent that they change it too.
I'm laying open my logic for the masses, as it were...
hobgoblin
Sep 25 2003, 04:49 PM
hmm, i swear i have read that some shotguns (like the spas-12or that benelli m3. i think) are both pump action and semi auto. basicly it enables you to use normal shot or slug rounds and use semi auto and then use funny ammo like say bean bags or similar that need a lower charge or something like that cna be handeld by the pump...
as for bolt action, most probably either fluff text being written before the stats or someone have seen sports rifle and automaticly thought of the old classic hunting rifle. allso, does there not exist rifles that are bolt action when you load em and semi auto when fired? as in the bolt action feature enable you to pop the bolt back and hand load one round if you need to...
EVLTIM
Sep 25 2003, 06:14 PM
QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
hmm, i swear i have read that some shotguns (like the spas-12or that benelli m3. i think) are both pump action and semi auto. basicly it enables you to use normal shot or slug rounds and use semi auto and then use funny ammo like say bean bags or similar that need a lower charge or something like that cna be handeld by the pump...
as for bolt action, most probably either fluff text being written before the stats or someone have seen sports rifle and automaticly thought of the old classic hunting rifle. allso, does there not exist rifles that are bolt action when you load em and semi auto when fired? as in the bolt action feature enable you to pop the bolt back and hand load one round if you need to... |
Yes to the Spas , And I don't remeber about the Benelli of the top of my head ,so I will go with a probably maybe.
As to the second part. The only thing I can think of would be a magazine cut off switch , but I don't know of any Semi- rifles that have one of the top of my head .
Ed_209a
Sep 25 2003, 07:52 PM
The bottom line to me is that SA means you can fire two controlled shots in your slice of the 3 sec turn, whether the weapon is actually a semiauto action or not.
SS means you can only fire 1 shot per action, regardless of the actual action type.
Strobe
Sep 26 2003, 12:52 AM
QUOTE (Drain Brain) |
…Also (excuse me for utilising the CC rules) why aren't there rules for adding a second barrel - if I want to make a Mad Max style 2 barrel sawn off, I can change a shotgun to break action, but I can't give it any more than 1 round. What's up with that? |
I think this was discussed a little while ago in another thread (possibly in the old forums?). Anyway, I seem to remember that it was decided that you would just make a break action shotgun and give it the "Extended Clip" modification with 1 more round, thus making a double barrelled shotgun, I'm not sure how that is supposed to chnage the damage code because I wasn't paying that much attention to the thread.
Perhaps someone who was could post the final resolution?
-Strobe
Drain Brain
Sep 26 2003, 10:36 AM
I should think that it would use rules similar to that of the Walther Palm Pistol - firing both barrels at once counts as a short burst...
Pthgar
Sep 26 2003, 01:37 PM
QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
hmm, i swear i have read that some shotguns (like the spas-12or that benelli m3. i think) are both pump action and semi auto. basicly it enables you to use normal shot or slug rounds and use semi auto and then use funny ammo like say bean bags or similar that need a lower charge or something like that cna be handeld by the pump...
as for bolt action, most probably either fluff text being written before the stats or someone have seen sports rifle and automaticly thought of the old classic hunting rifle. allso, does there not exist rifles that are bolt action when you load em and semi auto when fired? as in the bolt action feature enable you to pop the bolt back and hand load one round if you need to... |
Most modern shotties are both pump or slide action and sei-auto. Especially tactical shotguns. for a pretty in depth description of all types of firearms gor to
The Modern Firearms and Ammuntion Site.
Ed_209a
Sep 26 2003, 02:37 PM
Most? Did you mean that most modern shotguns are both pump-action _and_ Semi-auto, like the Benelli M3 and the Franchi SPAS-12 & 15?
If so, I wouldn't say so. At least not in the US civillian market. In fact the Benelli and the SPAS are the only dual-mode shotguns that come to mind.
Pthgar
Sep 26 2003, 09:38 PM
Sorry, I should have said "most advanced designs" instead of "most modern." There are some hunters who like the challenge of a slower RoF. I mean you can buy "modern" muzzle loading rifles, but I didn't mean "made recently" when I wrote "modern."
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