So. A few people here have touched on the fact that the GM is primarily the one who created this situation. MachineProphet probably feels like he gave an inch and a mile was taken but really, what are you doing giving an inch in Shadowrun? On the other hand, the player is totally out of line, and I almost laughed myself hoarse when the message came in that he didn't understand why Uriel would be mega-pissed at his character. But how was the Troll-ThunderGAWD able to come within spitting distance anyway? And even if it was necessary, why was the uber-NPC's reactions slower than a Troll's? This is particularly troubling since allegedly the uber-NPC knows "every spell in the book" and should have been able to counter anything a mere PC could throw at him, even a punch.

Well, I don't want to kick you when you're down MachineProphet, but you do need to fix this, and fix it ASAP. First off, follow all the advice given about having Uriel being responsible for the Troll's troubles. But it really shouldn't end there.
This guy's Astral Signature is all over town, in a big way from the sounds of it. It seems to me that LonsStar should be putting together a taskforce just to deal with him. My advice is form that task force, and once he pulls off another really splashy run have them hit him and hit him hard. 2 roadmasters full of SWAT should initially take him on, supplemented by at least two mages whose only real job will be spell defense while two other mages throw every sort of manabased spell that makes sense at him. Have two more roadmasters and several patrol vehicles on standby in case this isn't enough. Here's the cruel part, have the initial SWAT teams armed with smgs using rubber bullets. Some will say this is crazy, they're less powerful and only do stun damage. But I say, you want to take him alive, initially and with SWAT fireteams going BF it's still going to take higher than 6 to resist on body checks for when he inevitably will be unable to dodge If he disposes of the first two fireteams send the second in with APDS and end the nightmare. If he succumbs to the first wave, well he'll be arrested and LoneStar will have their way with him. Be creative, get his essence down to 2 or so with chemical treatments and non-functioning cyber. Then have your Uber NPC pull strings or break him out. Give him the choice of serving as a thrall to Uriel or being turned back over to the criminal justice system. That should wake your player up, hell, he might even enjoy playing a burnedout mage once Uriel starts trusting him enough to put some functioning cyber into him (plus a cortex bomb...)

Well, here's the latest turn of events.

During tonight's adventure, he was walking down a street, interfered in a fight, and killed an Ork who was picking on a human. Some hours later, he was in a public lavatory in a restaurant he was known to frequent. The Ork's friends snuck some heavy-duty halleucenogens on the seat, and when he was too stoned to fight back, they grabbed him, dragged him into a properly troll-sized surgery room and plucked his eyes out.

He decided then that it should be retconned, because he didn't make any rolls and and had no chance to evade his fate. I told him that he did, because he made the conscious descision to pick a fight, and a dice roll would be even more arbitrary than my descisions. He didn't like the idea, because he felt that the roleplaying game was like a dramatic television show and he was the star, and he shouldn't just lose eyes unless it's a dramatic moment. I reminded him again that by picking a fight, he committed an action with potential consequences and we changed the subject.

What do you think?

Oh, and for the curious, Hamster's rational that Uriel wouldn't be mad at him was that a) as an uber-powerful being, he would be secure in his strength and and not feel the need to prove himself, b) as an uber-powerful being, he would welcome a potential challenge, and c) he may be so amused by the idea of somebody who simply can't win fighting him that he may be too charmed to fight back. I don't understand it either, he reads too many comic books and thinks you all are too rigid.

Well, Uriel's an uber-powerful being. To him, Trollie's a gnat. What do you do with gnats?

I think you still need to work on finding the right balance in your games. You've stopped coddling the PC, and are trying to introduce realistic consequences, which is good, but I have to agree with Hamster that you were pretty arbitrary. The dice rolls are important - they give the player a sense that he has a chance, and can affect things in the game world. A GM simply telling a player things, especially things like "You get knocked out, and wake up in a hospital, and they tell you they've put a cortex bomb in your head," reduces the game to storytelling. You should have given him a perception test with a moderately high number like 10 to notice something wet on the toilet seat, and given him a Body test against 8D stun per round sitting and each round thereafter until he got it washed off. That way, it wouldn't have sounded like you arbitrarily decided to mess up his character.

As far as Uriel goes, I would say he would make things hell for the character for awhile, but superpowerful NPCs should work through underlings. I would probably have him harass Neb with thugs attacking him, arson on his condoplex, etc. and end up with something humiliating (to make up for Neb humiliating him) for the finale - like having a merc group capture him, strip him naked, then have him escape only to find that he is in the middle of the halftime show at the big superbrawl game, with everyone pointing and laughing at him.

I think you hit on the basic problem, which is the perception of how an RPG should be run. Neb's player views the events of your games not only as 'his story,' but also a story in which he is not just the main character, but the hero. The Hero perception comes with the belief that the Hero should be immune to many of the repercussions that would affect normal actors in the world, should be capable of extraordinary feats, and should regularly encounter other extremely rare and powerful actors in the world. Heros usually start the games at a fairly high level of power, or quickly ascend to such a level. Their first encounter is usually someone who should eat them for luinch like they ate so many people like the Hero before, but the Hero comes out victorious because the Hero is run by your Player. Oddly, Heroes are usually violent. The Hero is your Conan, your Frodo, your Drizzt, your Harry Potter. Many people enjoy RPGs played this way, and many systems, especially fantasy systems such as D&D were constructed assuming people would be using this model of gaming. Players often like this type of game because they get to be strong and effective, do a lot of incredible things, and generally be involved in more *fantastic* universes. GMs, however, often get bored, because everything becomes an exercise in storytelling, and the GMs plans, on-the-fly tactics, and creativity are not really tested. The world is fun for the palyers, but bland for the GM.

The other perception is that of an RPG designed to reflect the cruel complexities and causal chains of the real world. Characters in the Cruel world must grub around for their food, must keep track of their arrows and bullets, often get robbed or ripped off, cannot blithely stumble in and destroy because *everyone* has friends, die when they fall off 500' cliffs, and have little chance of grabbing the runner on the helicopter they were just pushed out of. Cruel stories are not about the characters; the Cruel world doesn't give a damn about the characters, and they are just tiny, mostly impotent actors in a massive ocean of interacting forces. Cruel world characters usually start out at low power levels, and their first encounter is a ganger with a leather jacket and hold-out pistol or 3 kobolds, and if they walk away from that encounter, they come away with a scar and often a bit poorer. Cruel world characters are usually less violent than Heroes because they have to be; in a vicious world, it is those who can best avoid violence that succeed. Cruel worlds are Bladerunner, or really any dystopian fantasy or sci-fi you can think of. Fewer RPGs were created with this model in mind, though a few exist. GMs tend to like this type of game more, because they get to really create their image of the world; they are much more able to play each NPC as an individual instead of as a function for the players, and they get to do some evil-GMing. Players tend to like Cruel worlds less because they have to deal with more mundane details, often get screwed because, unlike the characters they play, they are not trained professionals and they make mistakes, and the Cruel world seems less like fantasy and more like the real world.

Shadowrun can be played with either the Hero or Cruel model of gaming. both have their strengths and weaknesses, and both can get dull after too long. In this case, it seems Neb is a Hero in a world you are trying to run as a Cruel. You want Neb's actions to have appropriate consequences, and Neb wants to, with reckless abandon, do what he damn well pleases, because, well, the players has a ball doing it.

I have gone on for so long that I totally forgot how I was going to synthesize all this
There are 2 out-of-game suggestions you might try. One is to try to resolve the discrepency in gaming perception between you and your player. The other is to run 2 alternating worlds; Neb's fanastic Hero world, and a second, grittier Cruel world.

Are we rigid? Maybe, but remember, Neb *was* going to cut off the guy's arms and legs...

SugarDog -- nice post. Good observations and well written.

Losing his eyes could be seen as extreme because its a permanent debility to the character. And, unless you gave him a check to resist the hallucogins you were basically saying "this happens because I am the GM and I said so". While both are valid things to do, they should be avoided at all costs.

Were I to run the same scenario, I would have used a spell on him, rolling my end behind the *GM SCREEN*. That screen is key. Then, regardless of what he gets, he is knocked out by the stun spell cast by whoever. Then he wakes up captured in xyz, and the plot can continue. Maybe they want to kill him like he killed their friend, but they want him to suffer first. So they torture him. Again, roll behind the *GM SCREEN* and have him resist it down to lights for awhile, then maybe the team can resuce his ass before he winds up dead.

The IMPORTANT distinction here is that you did NOT just say "this happens to you cause I said so". By rolling your half and allowing the player to roll, they feel as if they had a hand in the situation, or a chance to do something. Their fate was decided by the dice not any individual. No one else was saying "this happens cause I said so". The net result is the same, but the perception is totally different. No reasoning by the player can overcome "this wouldnt happen" because they cant logically say "oh well I should have rolled higher". Thats just how the ball bounces.

The above post on game types in invaluble here. The issue is with player/gm perceptions. That and the fact that you seem to repeatedly use less obvious means to deal with things. Just have some guy like Uriel send a hit team after him. Have the first shot fired from the barret rifle at this guys head, dealing 14D overdamage (which again you should let him roll to resist, hes not dead cause oyu say so, hes dead cause he didnt roll well). Then since the troll goes down the team can make reaction tests and dive for cover. Net result: problem guy out of action as he heals (if hes not dead) but the team is ok, the hit squad could leave after their job is done. Having Uriel waltz in and offer the rest of them a job with the addage "let Trolls fate be a warning should you cross me again", so they have something to do while the Troll heals, and everyone learns the lesson that you dont screw with the uber npc.

Basically what WD said. The NPC/GM is God in the game, but there's no need to be so blunt. I mean, if you're not going to discuss it like a man out-of-game, then use subtle little methods of knocking your problem character down a few notches. Like give him a rep as the baddest motherfucker on the block he so wants...then let him live with the consequences as every two-bit punk with an Uzi tries to take him down. Have a relative or loved one of one of his victims hire a high-priced high-powered assassin to cack his ass. Have him piss off the Yaks, Mafia, Rings and/or Triads. Or have some random crime sprees happen around him. Make him the target of cops. Use his astral signature against him. If you want to rob him of his toys and money, send the IRS against him. Cut off his phone access. Kill his teachers. Make him an untouchable in the shadow community. Put him on the 'actively-unemployed' list of every Johnson in town. Put a bounty on his head too good for anyone (including the PCs) to resist. Give him the Bottled Demon.

But above all, give him a chance - however slim or ultimately meaningless- to survive. Remember, it's not the GM versus the PC, it's the GM with the PC: the GM merely gives a PC a playground, but it's up to the PC to be aware of the GM's needs and to abide by them.

The GM playing behind the screen is such an important part of RPGs it's not even funny. It means you can fudge your dice up OR down. Just screw the character by accident? Oops, adjust your whoopass down. Just botch an important roll? Adjust it up.

Or do what I do with uber-powerful NPCs. I roll, but really...what the dice say doesn't really matter. It's more that SHUGGA SHUGGA SHUGGA sound of like 20 dice in your hand that puts the fear of God into your characters.

I've found more and more that I really barely use my dice for more than a sound effect, half the time I already know what I "want" to happen.

dragonkin I disagree completely. I have played the last 7 or 8 years never using a GM screen. I feel it drastically adds an air of accomplishment and legitimacy to a game when the players know they wins were wins and not granted through magical GM fiat. They know there are consequences to actions that are not unfair and armitrary decisions passed down because the GM felt like it.

Screens for me are more to keep my notes and other materials sensitive to the campaign from the players' prying eyes, the ability to fudge a roll for or against a pc is merely a side bonus. sometimes an event you want to happen is just too important to let the randomness of dice decide. in general the game provides devices for the gm to use that cut down on the randomness ie. visual aids for guards, armor, edges and flaws for various things. a lot of people forget that a single high roll doesn't often help for your success, a single success for perception only lets you know something's wrong, not exactly what. a single success for a high body test won't get you very far, etc etc. as long as you keep real consequences in mind for your player's action, even a quiet, scheming sociopath won't last very long. no matter how careful someone is there almost always will be some evidence left behind. it's only a matter of time before Lone Star, the corp he hit, a relative or friend of a person he whacked/humiliated tracks him down and takes him out.

I've always been a proponent of "let the dice fall where they may", myself, although I can see fudging a roll in a "Heroic" campaign to let the hero survive or let the main villain escape. But fudging dice rolls in a "Cruel World" campaign, solely to screw the character, is contemptible. It's taking GM fiat and adding blatant dishonesty to it. Remember, this campaign is your fault, too. One minute you're letting him waltz around getting away with anything, then the next minute, you're trying to mess up or kill his character without giving him any real chances.

Personally, I would just drop the current campaign and let Neb retire. Then, run your new campaign as a mix of "heroic" (let him be tough and do badass stuff) and "Cruel World" (people he kills might have friends, enemies use intelligent tactics, doing a run without legwork gets you killed quick, and you can always be the target of random violence from a thrill-gang).

Using a GM screen is in no way dishonest or cheating. Its including so that the storyteller can adjust the random factors of the game to better guide the story. If you dont use a screen, and he refuses to play with one, then tell him to go roll dice by himself. Thats such BS. Basically he is forcing you to just give all the NPCs skills of 30 so you can roll in front and go "see, they kick your ass, 'nuff said" which is totally pointless. Then he will try to agrue "skills of 30 arent fair man, we need a redo". Thats when you drag him into an alley and beat him senseless, then leave him for dead ....

... and cut off his arms and legs and drop him out a window...



(edit: had to add smiley)

Wow, this is really fucked up. You have, as far as I see it, three choices:

1-Ditch him, get some new friends, GM in happiness.
2-Ditch him, run an online game, we're in desperate need of GMs, always. I'd play, and I'm sure a lot of other people here would too.
3-Continue playing with a total asshole, eventually get fed up and kill him, then yourself.

The power is yours!

I find the best way to handle a psychopath character is to keep a list of all the enemies the character gets over his career. Then use these enemies creatively to start messing with his life. They don't all have hire hit men either.

Have a decker post the character's name, description, and list of crimes all over the local matrix. ( or better yet pepper his neighborhood with fliers )

Have Lone Star put him on their most wanted list.

Convince his contacts to break off their relationship with the character.

Have a decker destroy his bank accounts.

Firebomb his house or personal vehicle.

Should he fail to learn his lesson early than let him fall to his fate. Assuming the hitmen fail to kill him, he'll end up unemployable, broke, homeless, friendless spending his time stealing from others and fending wave after wave of bounty hunters and assassins. He won't even be able to leave the slums as the authorities have them on their top ten lists and his face is plastered across the matrix.

Assuming that he doesn't do the smart thing ( plastic surgery, new city, new identity, new attitude ) he'll eventually succumb to the constant assaults on him by those trying to kill him. ( Make it a titanic battle of epic proportions ) His death will be a warning to all who believe that simply because they're criminals it gives them license to act as psychos and that in the shadows without friends and a good reputation you'll quickly end up face down in the gutters.

After his character is dead, and he asks you how this happened take out the list of enemies. Tell him how each enemy helped to contribute to his downfall, and what he did to make this enemy. Even the most bloodthirsty player will take the hint.