http://www.impactguns.com/store/machinegun...legalities.html
EDIT: Note the requirement that the weapon needs to be manufactured prior to 1986 (and effectively registered as existing by then). Civilians are not allowed to own automatic weapons manufactured since that time. That grandfathering rule of full automatics from prior to 1986 created a limited supply that has driven prices up thousands of dollars. An M16 in good shape can easily run more than $10,000.
Full Version: Full Burst
I used these rules in SR3, any advice on how to convert to SR4?
Dodge Tests
· Target # 4 modified only by wounds.
Fire Control (FC)
· Derived Stat used to determine ones ability to maintain control over a firearm shooting burst or automatic fire.
· Calculated as (Body + Strength) / 2. Round down.
· Fire Control can be increased at a rate of +1 FC per 1 Combat Pool spent.
Recoil Compensation (RC)
· Strength no longer provides any Recoil Compensation
Direct Burst Fire / Full Auto Fire - Single Target
· Action
· Burst = Simple Action ; 3 Rounds.
· Full Auto = Complex Action up to ROF (rounds) fired.
· Dice Bonus
· +2 Dice / 3 Rounds fired.
· +1 Die for a 2 round short burst.
· Target Number
· Base Target # for Range and other standard effects.
· Recoil Penalty = Uncompensated Recoil - Fire Control.
· Damage
· +1 Power per Round with Recoil Compensation
· Burst Fire
Notes
· Recoil Compensation and Fire Control covers the entire pass. As each burst is treated as a separate attack, Recoil Compensation and Fire Control used on the first Burst does not apply to the 2nd burst.
· Each burst is calculated as a separate attack.
· HV Weapons shoot 6 round Bursts
These rules worked very well for my gaming group. It allowed for the average person to shoot a burst from a weapon without requiring ungodly amounts of recoil comp. It bascially was of the thought that the more bullets in the air, the better the odds of hitting. Damage was the standard bullet damage increased only by recoil comp.
Dodge Tests
· Target # 4 modified only by wounds.
Fire Control (FC)
· Derived Stat used to determine ones ability to maintain control over a firearm shooting burst or automatic fire.
· Calculated as (Body + Strength) / 2. Round down.
· Fire Control can be increased at a rate of +1 FC per 1 Combat Pool spent.
Recoil Compensation (RC)
· Strength no longer provides any Recoil Compensation
Direct Burst Fire / Full Auto Fire - Single Target
· Action
· Burst = Simple Action ; 3 Rounds.
· Full Auto = Complex Action up to ROF (rounds) fired.
· Dice Bonus
· +2 Dice / 3 Rounds fired.
· +1 Die for a 2 round short burst.
· Target Number
· Base Target # for Range and other standard effects.
· Recoil Penalty = Uncompensated Recoil - Fire Control.
· Damage
· +1 Power per Round with Recoil Compensation
· Burst Fire
Notes
· Recoil Compensation and Fire Control covers the entire pass. As each burst is treated as a separate attack, Recoil Compensation and Fire Control used on the first Burst does not apply to the 2nd burst.
· Each burst is calculated as a separate attack.
· HV Weapons shoot 6 round Bursts
These rules worked very well for my gaming group. It allowed for the average person to shoot a burst from a weapon without requiring ungodly amounts of recoil comp. It bascially was of the thought that the more bullets in the air, the better the odds of hitting. Damage was the standard bullet damage increased only by recoil comp.
| QUOTE (JesterX) |
| Also, the recoil of a LMG should be MUCH greater than the recoil of a SMG, don't you think? The caliber of the bullets, length/width ratio, mecanism to eject them, the amount of explosive material in them all have something to do with this. |
Not necessarily - at least as far as perceived recoil is concerned. I'm sure someone here can produce exact figures, but basically, the fact that a LMG can easily weigh 2.5-3 times as much as an SMG could actually result in less recoil felt by the shooter.
You can tell the difference in recoil from just a "heavy" 9mm pistol like my Taurus 92AF and a light 9mm like one my buddy has. I forget the name but it's cheap and light and kicks like mad.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
The AK-97 and FN HAR are Restricted. The other two assult rifles are Forbidden, but then again they come with underbarrel grenade launchers.  All the SMG are Restricted. |
Then street gangs in the 2070s UCAS probably have quite a few automatic weapons.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| P.S. I knew about Finland reservists being able to keep their weapons at home, i didn't know about the permits. I suppose that if you have a criminal background it would be very tough to get one of those permits? |
85+% of Finnish males serve in the Defense Forces, and most of those end up in the reserves for a couple of dozen years, but we don't get to keep weapons at home.
I meant active members of the military who are employed as trainers in voluntary reserve training programs -- there's probably a few hundred such individuals in Finland. I kinda doubt people with criminal backgrounds stand a chance of getting a permit, and the same goes for anyone who doesn't have a good reason for the weapon -- is a hunter (with the paperwork to prove it), is an active member of a shooting club, etc.| QUOTE (JesterX) |
| The caliber of the bullets, length/width ratio, mecanism to eject them, the amount of explosive material in them all have something to do with this. |
To put it simply, the mass of the propellant, the velocity and mass of the bullet as it exits the muzzle and the mass of the weapon are what determines the actual recoil of the weapon. Recoil-reducing mechanisms like gas venting (from simple gas operation to massive muzzle brakes) and recoiling barrel, bolt, etc., can also affect it, but don't come into play when comparing types of firearms and not particular firearms.
According to the Recoil Calculator on Raygun's site, a 5.6lb MP5 firing 9mm M882 NATO Ball, 112gr @ about 1350fps (453ft-lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle) with 6gr of propellant, has a recoil energy of 1.5ft-lbs @ 4.2fps, and a recoil impulse of 0.78lb/s; while a 15.7lb M249 SAW firing 5.56mm M855 NATO Ball, 62gr @ about 3000fps (1238ft-lbs) with 26.1gr of propellant stands at 2.1ft-lbs @ 2.9fps for recoil energy and 1.29lb/s for recoil impulse.
In other words, all else being equal, the MP5 would have a slightly sharper but slightly less energetic recoil, and would "push" you back less. What that actually feels like to the shooter is another matter entirely -- the M249 is likely to be shaking more during automatic fire thanks to a heavy bolt and ammunition belt moving around violently, but it might still feel more stable.
Another factor towards aiming when on full auto is the angle of the recoil. One that is more "over" the shoulder ala the AK-97 will tend to try rotating up and around the shoulder. One that has a straight stock and the recoil is straight back will go backwards more than around the shoulder, ala the Ares Alpha.
yup.. so lets all just ignore realism for a while and be semi happy with the full auto rules, and in secret.. mod to our hearts content.. 
| QUOTE (Lord Ben) |
| And you need a class III permit. |
Which, in all honesty, is not that hard to get.
Not if you have a couple hundred bucks and a good sheriff. (And 8000 on up for an Uzi or whatever).
I can't seem to find how much recoil compensation fixed weapons and vehicular weapons have...
Anybody got the page number?
Anybody got the page number?
If a weapon is on a turret you mean? I'd just give them the tripod bonus probably.
| QUOTE (Lord Ben) |
| If a weapon is on a turret you mean? I'd just give them the tripod bonus probably. |
No, not on turret... Fixed on a weapon mount. (Pg. 341)
A weapon mount is just a mount for a regular weapon. You could put the same recoil comps on a normal machine guns that you could on mounted machine guns. Simply mounting it on a vehicle though IMHO would count as a tripod.
A ground vehicule is by far more stable than a shadowrunner on two legs... Especially if the gun is motorized and controlled by a software.
Thanks for the Tripod input but that would be house rule... I don't like house ruling...
Everytime that I ask a question about SR4, I got as an answer to make an house rule because they forgot to write about it in the book... I'm starting to become really sick of this.
Didn't they playtested it?
Anyway, thank you Lord Ben for your help.
Thanks for the Tripod input but that would be house rule... I don't like house ruling...
Everytime that I ask a question about SR4, I got as an answer to make an house rule because they forgot to write about it in the book... I'm starting to become really sick of this.
Didn't they playtested it?
Anyway, thank you Lord Ben for your help.
I don't know that they forgot so much as they're going to have full vehicles rules in the rigger book.
| QUOTE (Lord Ben) |
| I don't know that they forgot so much as they're going to have full vehicles rules in the rigger book. |
I really hope you're right ^_^
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