Someone else beside me think that the -9 to hit with the full burst is REALLY hard to achieve hits without spending edge?

Let's face that situation:

My character got an average agility of 3 and an automatics skill of 4... Which is not that bad! He also got a smartlink raising it's pool to 9 dices.

Now, I've got to substract 6 dices for the recoil (-9 for full burst w/ 3 pts of whooping recoil compensation for Gas-vent III)

I've got 3 dices for this attack!

Now, if I had fired from a covered position (-1), and my target was 11-40 meters away (-1 for SMG's), I would have get only 1 dice for this action! (only 33% of chances to hit my target!)

Imagine the average street punk without a smartlink... that is cleanly impossible! (Except if they are burning edge or making longshots...)

I don't see who would do a full burst instead of a long burst.

The average street punk without a smartlink using a fully automatic weapon would be using suppresive fire, not wide or narrow bursts

The average street punk would probably have a pistol or a shotgun!

Throw in a recoil pad and a stock for 5pts of recoil comp. Use tracers on full auto (+3) and you're down to -1 dice for a full auto burst from a SMG with stock and shock pads. That's not bad at all!

Yeah, your example is akin to trying to ride a rodeo bull without a saddle. Get yourself the right equipment tacked on the thing and the average guy can handle the bucking.

Punks in the 2005's DO use full automatics (Uzi's) And there is no gas-vent...

I don't believe that the recoil of 2070's weapons is far worst than it is today.

And also, today, we don't have smartgun systems, augmented vision and so on... and guess what? Peoples ARE ABLE to kill other peoples with full automatics...

A ganger, when faced with a gun that has so much recoil he can't control it, does not try and point the gun at the target, closely following his every move in an effort to connect all 10 bullets. What he instead does, is point the gun in roughly the direction of the target, then move the gun back and forth, up and down and around the general area of the target in hopes of landing a lucky bullet or two.

And that is supressing fire

Full Auto was difficult in SR3 as well unless you had the max in gas vent, pads, and other compensating accessories (depending on the weapon type) and then threw in the alternate strength rule from Canon Companion.

The modifier for a full ten shot burst was +10 making the base target 14 (12 with smartlink).

Yep, in SR3, it was even harder since there was no "Longshot" rules...

However, we can prove my theory any time if you want by simulating the situation...

You can give me an uzi, put a dummy 11 meters from me... i'll be shooting at the dummy and we can count the number of bullets hitting it... I'm pretty sure that the dummy will be crippled like a strainer.

Shadowrun is too much "Hollywood movie'esque"

I'll be really curious to see the real "bullet spread" on a dummy in real life.

If you're going to spend the money on an uzi you might as well drop the extra money to buy smart glasses, gas vents, smartlink, and tracer bullets. You're already spending 10x that on a bike.

Well I allways hated this all or nothing burst fire rules in shadowrun. You sould test this (its just a quick idea, it needs refinement):
So the -9 modifier leaves you with one dice only. If you score a five with this dice, all 10 bullets hit, if not, you have wasted one bullet, and you gets a second roll. If this scores, 9 bullets hit, if not, another roll ... and so on until you ran out of bullets.
If you got example 3 dice afer the -9 modifier, then you do the first roll with 3 dice, for the all bullet hit, but after this you do the next dice rolls with one dice only, subtracting one bullet from the 10 every time.

I know this is not a perfect rule, but gives you chance to get a partial hit from a full burst.
I wellcome any idea or house rule to upgrade this.

Sorry I wanted to add this to the Full Burst topic.

more realistic autofire rules are easy. you just have autofire increase the rate at which successes add to damage. more successes = more shots on-target = more damage.

Well having taken a loooong look at the full auto rules in sr4 considering I made Ape and he revolves around full auto fire. The penalties aren't all that bad in all honesty.

Theres a large difference between your video's and combat situations. And yes properly bracing the weapon DOES give you bonus'. Its in shockpads (recoil comp) and aiming actions (bonus dice). I haven't bothered to watch your video's myself because I've seen enough of those in my time. I can almost guarentee you that they're looking dow the sights and take time to aim at their target before they pull the trigger. However in a combat situation in shadowrun you're not assumed to be looking down the sights the entire time, nor is it assumed you're always properly bracing the weapon. Combat in shadowrun is 'fluid' (ie you're not stationary and shifting in and out of cover and such hence the reaction/dodge test) and the rules are somewhat abstract.

-9 dice looks like a big number. Average goons firing full auto long bursts (not overly likely) aren't going to hit crap. Then you go up to a well trained guard and he has a prety decent chance. lets say agil 4 automatics 5. thats 9 dice. has atleast one recoil comp, probably 3. Takes 2 actions to aim lets the led fly. 5 dice to roll right there for spending 3 actions 2 simple 1 complex. We haven't even assumed he even has a smartlink which gives him 7 dice or 5 again if he does not take the time to aim. And if he selects a wide burst, whoever got hit isn't going to be dodging. Or if he goes narrow (such as your video's will show) he'll drop like a ton of bricks, assuming the other char doesn't manage to dodge.

Full auto fire does not happen ofen in real life. Professionals are trained NOT to use full auto fire, they're trained how to fire fully auto and crontrol things but it is more of a fall back just incase they have to. Burst fire is more controlable, wastes less ammo, and you have a lesser chance of hitting something other than your intended target.

I figure 17,439 angels can dance on the head of a pin provided all of their arms are interlinked.

Abstract rules, guys. Don't pick it apart too hard.

Maybe shadowrun is doing it backwards, maybe full auto should give +9 dice and no damage bonuses, you just generate them through shooting successes (possibly cap bonus dice to att+skill)

Are those the semi auto version of the weapons or the full auto? And do you have any stats when you say "routinely"?

Let's not forget that wide full auto bursts also subtract 9 dice from your opponents dodge pool.. and that's where the attacker has the advantage. If it's a hard shot to land already, use a wide burst and your opponent is subtracting the same number of dice from their pool as you are, but they can't use recoil comp to lessen that penalty like you can

Also, if it's a hard shot and you really need the damage, then use a long burst instead of a full auto burst. It only subtracts 5 dice from your pool for recoil (of which you comp 3 of them), and still adds an impressive 5 DV. (not to mention it uses almost half the ammo of a full burst)

That's why skilled gunmen are trained to use controlled bursts, it's more effective and more efficient, unless you are just firing to cover an area.. a.k.a. suppressive fire.

Yes, hitting with all bullets with anything with more recoil than pistol ammo in full auto mode 20-30 meters away is next to impossible, unless you
A:lie down, use a bipod
B: Are one strong mofo and have done it a ton of times before so you _know_ how the gun will kick and brace acordingly, (and it will still make you miss a few)
C: The weapon is mounted onto a vehicle or some other fixed postition..

Now that we have established that, we get down to pistol ammo, they dont present the same kind of recoil as the larger ammo does, so the chances of getting a more coherent spread than those with larger caliber.. Especially if you are properly braced.



Now then we go into the game rules.. I to kinda hate the hit or miss idea with the spread since the first 1-3 bullets is pretty much spot on where you want them to be, so why not apply the extra attack power etc depending on how many hits you get..

You get 1 hit.. you do no more dmg than with a single shot of that weapon, you get 2 hits you do normal dmg +half the shots fired,.. 3 hits or more, you do full dmg..

Or something akin to that.. I havent gone throu the SR4 rules yet so I dont know how many sux is considered "compleate" suxess, but this is something I would feel comfortable using..



And to the guy that said firing a m16 by bracing it against your nose and suffering no ill affects of that.. please.. borrow a M16, do that and film it..
It probably wont break your nose, but it will cause a nose bleed, or bust a lip if you slip a bit.. but ofc, firing 5.56 ammo is like shooting peas compared to shooting 7.62 ammo, but dont be absurd and state something like that.. And yes, I know Ive done it all during my draft.. I dont claim to know everything, but atleast I speak from experiance.. =)

i've done it, nkari. i tried it when i went through basic. you can feel it, sure, but it's not going to break anything. it's about like being flicked hard by a finger.

nah, the shooting rules in SR assume a field-but-not-combat environment. if you miss a non-moving, non-dodging target in the open with 10 rounds of autofire at 25 yards, you were having an epileptic siezure. anybody in the world that has two arms, ten fingers, and a relatively normal nervous system can be trained within two weeks to hit a 25-yard target nine times out of ten. holding the trigger down for ten rounds at that same target? you'd have to try to miss.

and, yeah. i was using that part of your quote to highlight why the SR burst-fire system doesn't make sense.

There is one good reason for a criminal in the US not to use an automatic weapon. The flury of very serious people from federal agencies that would show up when you started using it. After tracking the person using it they would then start putting a lot of effort into tracing backwards to find out where it came from.

I would assume it's mostly because they're "cool"; because having a fully automatic longarm gives you +1 on your Bad-Assity.

The fact that they are so easily available helps: WW2-era guns that were never licensed and end up in the black market and the millions of AKs at $50 a piece just over the border. But that's not all there is to it, judging from the robberies of weapons from the military or from collectors.

To look mean and scary? Just in case another criminal is thinking about knocking you over for whatever illicit goods you have.

P.S. By definition if you possess one of those weapons you are either criminal, in the military, or in an elite police group.

There is legal, Restricted (need a permit to own legally), and Forbidden (you need to be a country to own 'legally').

The AK-97 and FN HAR are Restricted. The other two assult rifles are Forbidden, but then again they come with underbarrel grenade launchers. All the SMG are Restricted.

P.S. I knew about Finland reservists being able to keep their weapons at home, i didn't know about the permits. I suppose that if you have a criminal background it would be very tough to get one of those permits?

Also, the recoil of a LMG should be MUCH greater than the recoil of a SMG, don't you think?

The caliber of the bullets, length/width ratio, mecanism to eject them, the amount of explosive material in them all have something to do with this.

"AK-47's", actually just clones, are available in semi-auto in the US perfectly legally. In fact you can even buy them on the internet as long as they're shipped to a local FFL dealer.

http://aimsurplus.com/acatalog/NEW_AK_WASR...zzle_Break.html

And you need a class III permit.