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Elfinster
I'm new to shadowrun so please go easy. I've been working with my GM to develop a new personal sidearm. I am including real life references on numbers. The RL guns are compared to in game weaponry to get a feel for what the new gun should be capable of. Let me know what you think (good or bad).



Gun parts pricing


Possible mounts
-Barrel
-Top Mount



Damage AP Mode RC Ammo Cost
6P -2 SA/BF 3 12© 3000$



Gas-Vent System 3- 400$
Sound Suppresser- 300$
Internal Smartgun- x2 weapon cost


Ceska Black Scorpian base price- 550$
Gas-Vent 3 and Suppresser- 700$
-23 rounds from clip- -100$
No stock- - 50$
+2 base damage- 200$
-2 AP- 200$
Internal Smartgun x2 Total Price
15% Special Creation Charge 450$
______________________________________
Total Price: 3450$



This finely crafted weapon is modeled after the late 20th century Israeli Industries .45ACP Desert Eagle.
The size has been reduced and overall weight lightened by the introduction of incredibly strong polyfibers.
The lighter weight required a high powered gas-vent system to reduce the recoil.
Modified with burst-fire capabilites and suppressed for covert operations, the Israeli Arms "Night Hammer" is the
perfect choice power and stealth. This particular model has been fitted with an integrated Smartgun.



Real Life Notes

.45 ACPDesert Eagle
Bullet Weight Bullet Velocity Powder Weight Gun Weight Caliber
230 900 6 4.4lbs .45/11.43mm

Recoil Penetration Permanent Cavity (Wound)
5ft/lbs at 10fps 8.66"-15.6" 22mm-20mm


92FS

Bullet Weight Bullet Velocity Powder Weight Gun Weight Caliber
115 1166 5.6 2.2lbs .35/9mm

Recoil Penetration Permanent Cavity (Wound)
3ft/lbs at 9fps 7.87" 15mm



.357 Magnum

Bullet Velocity Caliber Penetration Permanent Cavity (Wound)
1390 .357/9.06mm 14.17" 18mm


**Notes**

The preceding statistics are taken for average bullets for the guns listed. Due to immense performance differences
in several .45 rounds, alternate stats were taken for Penetration and Cavity size from other more accurate sources.
The .357 mgnum stats were taken from the same source.


***References***

Terminal Ballistics (source for .357 and .45 stats): http://www.steyrscout.org/terminal.htm

Bullet Penetration Calculator (source of 92fs and other .45 stats): http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Poncelet/Po...let_english.htm

.45 Grain and Powder Weight: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...51/ai_n14936898

.45 Gun Weight: http://www.dentrinity.com/NelsonChen/Colle...l/DE50/De50.htm

9mm Stats: http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aast9mmv380a.htm

92FS Weight: http://products.berettausa.com/frame_tabel...=92/96%20Series


****Issues That Have Come Up****

-While the gun packs a punch, it does not have the range of an assault rifle.
-The gun is incapable of long burts.
-The Gas-Vent system is integrated into the gun and thus does not take up a mount (see page 301-302)
-Concealability would become +2 due to the bulk
calypso
Hmm... I'm not the best person to crunch the number, but I do know a general rule: Would every gun user buy one? Then it's overpowered.

From what I saw, this gun has no drawbacks besides cost (which in SR is negiligible) and some serious benefits: the high AP ability, the better damage. Compare it to the Super Warhawk. Same damage, same AP. Semi-automatic/burst fire compared to single shot. Large clip. Built in recoil comp. Built in sound suppression. Allows barrel mount. Basically, it's the perfect gun. Therefore, it fails the "would everyone buy it" test. *shrug* However, it's a DM call.

Calypso
tirsales
I wouldn't allow it for exactly the same reasons ...
Taki
As a player, I would immediately by 10 of them.
As a GM, I would immediately decrease its lethal power (a lot).

It is obviously overpowered.
Elfinster
Well, what would you do to balance it out more? My GM and I thought about adding double recoil. (As per heavy weapons)
hobgoblin
just goes to show why most games makes 3 guns, one for each class, and then forgets about specifics.
Lord Ben
To balance it? I'd use a heavy pistol stats and say it's a desert eagle for looks. MAYBE I'd allow a SA version of the super warhawk. No way would I allow a gun better than the super warhawk to not only do SA but also BF!
Elfinster
This is what the GM and I have settled on. So how does this one sit?

-Proposed Firearm Prototype-
Range Type: Machine Pistol (+2 vs. Conceal)
Damage: 5P
AP: -1
Mode: SA/BF*
RC: 2
Ammo: 12©

Modifications:
Integral Gas Vent II System
Integral Smartlink System
Detachable Sound Supressor*
Top Mount - Unused

*Burst Fire - Fired as Exclusively Short Bursts
*Sound Supressor - Functions as SMG Size Catergory while Sound Supressor is in use. Application/Removal, 1 Complex Action.
tirsales
Weeelll ... For one thing I personally dislike every combination of Silencer (whatever kind) and Gas-Vent - but thats out of logical RL reasons not because of balance or whatever (and I know that some official guns have both, too)

IMO it should NOT be a Machine Pistol but a SMG ... MPs have a damage code of 4P/-, SMG of 5P/-
Adding a SMG with 5P/-1 is overpowered in my opinion (though the low ammo may fix that) - adding a MP with that stat ...

As a SMG I would possibly allow it, as a MP .. No way.
calypso
If you are attempting to keep the idea of a modified Desert Eagle "hand cannon" then the new one you posted is a far cry from that.

May I suggest:

"-Proposed Firearm Prototype-
Range Type: Heavy Pistol
Damage: 5P
AP: -2
Mode: SA/BF*
Ammo: 12
+2 Concealability (ie, it's easier to spot)

Modifications:
Cannot be silenced (ie, no barrel mount)
Top Mount - Unused

*Burst Fire - Double uncompensated recoil"

This is still better than the core guns, mind you. I'm trying to figure out how to fix that still, while keeping the theme.

EDIT: btw, my fix was to remove the capacity for a silencer.

Calypso
Austere Emancipator
You know the Desert Eagle is not chambered in .45 ACP either by Magnum Research or by Israeli Military Industries, right? The weapon (Mark XIX) is currently available in .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum and .50 AE, as well as being capable of firing the .440 Cor-Bon magnum round (and possible other, more exotic rounds).

Are the "Permanent Cavity (Wound)" figures taken directly from the few sources, mentioning only a few loads for each caliber? You realize that the actual performance of any of these guns might turn out to be completely different based on what kind of ammunition is used, right? Direct comparison between the actual penetration depths and widths of the wound cavity are a rather pointless excercise unless each caliber has been loaded with bullets of similar construction, or better yet with bullets that act the same upon hitting -- the same bullet design at a different diameter, mass or most importantly velocity may act very differently when hitting tissue.

Fired out of a 4" handgun barrel with the right load, a .357 Magnum and a .45 ACP can both be expected to penetrate 12"-15" with an expanded bullet diameter of 0.65"-0.75". The actual wound cavity can vary a lot (say, +/- 0.25") depending, for example, on velocity and the shape of the deformed bullet. The .357 Magnum is theoretically capable of better performance because of more energy at the muzzle, however. 9x19mm will, of course, all else being equal, perform worse than either, being significantly less powerful -- as is implied by the numbers you put up.

You linked two articles, one of which deals with the penetration of round nosed solid rifle rounds and the other dealing with a propellant for handloading for calibers which you do not deal with in your messages. Were they included only to befuddle readers?

Might I suggest a visit to Raygun's Shadowrun and Firearms 101?
Squinky
If I had to choose a gun to go with, I would go with calypso's. It still has that cool new flavor to it, without being insane.
Eddie Furious
I have to agree, the Gas Compensator and the Suppressor do not mix, at least what with I know about firearms. Simply because more or less they work at opposite ends of the spectrum. The suppressor collects the gas in baffles, reducing the report, while the gas recoil compensation system pushes the gasses out in a specific direction and velocity to compensate for the recoil.

I think that the suppressor might have a built in -1 recoil due to mass and gas collection. The MP5SD series tends to be a bit more accurate and rides out the recoil, due to the extra weight of the suppressor and the baffles collecting the gasses, than the MP5s.
ascendance
All I know is... I want my Savalette Guardian back!
Critias
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
just goes to show why most games makes 3 guns, one for each class, and then forgets about specifics.

....?

"Most?" Right.
Ophis
QUOTE (ascendance)
All I know is... I want my Savalette Guardian back!

nah, I want my Ruger Thunderbolt.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Eddie Furious @ Oct 3 2005, 09:09 PM)
I have to agree, the Gas Compensator and the Suppressor do not mix, at least what with I know about firearms. Simply because more or less they work at opposite ends of the spectrum. The suppressor collects the gas in baffles, reducing the report, while the gas recoil compensation system pushes the gasses out in a specific direction and velocity to compensate for the recoil.

I think that the suppressor might have a built in -1 recoil due to mass and gas collection. The MP5SD series tends to be a bit more accurate and rides out the recoil, due to the extra weight of the suppressor and the baffles collecting the gasses, than the MP5s.

You're also supposed to use sub-sonic ammunition with a suppressor in order to get it to work properly. Which notably is less powerful than your standard round.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Ophis)
QUOTE (ascendance @ Oct 4 2005, 09:43 AM)
All I know is... I want my Savalette Guardian back!

nah, I want my Ruger Thunderbolt.

Bah give me my Walther Palm Pistol back!
calypso
And I want my Morrisey Alta back!
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
You're also supposed to use sub-sonic ammunition with a suppressor in order to get it to work properly.

It is, in fact, a bad idea to use sub-sonic ammunition with the MP5SDs. The whole point of that particular weapon design is that it bleeds of propellant gases and thus reduces the acceleration of the bullet inside the weapon. Full power (or even +P, AFAIK) ammunition is reduced to subsonic when fired out of an MP5SD. However, that's not the reason why it recoils less. Like Eddie Furious suggested, it catches the propellant gases and thus negates one major source of recoil.

Raygun's Suppression Basics
Eddie Furious
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
You're also supposed to use sub-sonic ammunition with a suppressor in order to get it to work properly. Which notably is less powerful than your standard round.

Actually, just as Austere Emancipator has indicated, with the MP5SD series of weapons the standard 9mmP rounds are preferred. They can use the standard 9mm rounds because of the 30 2.5mm holes drilled in the barrels to bleed out some of the propellent gasses to reduce the round to subsonic speeds. Using a cold loaded round can lead to having turned your MP5SD into a manual repeater with poor accuracy and (poorer) penetration. The SDs were designed by HK to be used with the ammo already in the chain to ease deployment woes and minimize intelligence collection through logistics.

Now, if you had an MP5PDW with a suppressor, I would recommend you think about cold loads. If you have an M-4 or G36K with a QD suppressor, don't worry about the supersonic crack, odds are the opponent won't recognize it for what it is until they are up to their eyeballs innit.
Raygun
The Desert Eagle is a big, beefy gun with a unique form of operation designed to handle cartridges that are much more powerful than the .45 ACP. There's not a lot of point in putting relatively low-powered, low-velocity cartridges like the .45 ACP in it. It defeats the design purpose of the gun and you only end up with something that's excessively costly for what it does.

The Desert Eagle could probably chamber the .45 Winchester Magnum without much difficulty (maybe a new bolt), using the same 230 grain bullet as the .45 ACP, only pushing it out at 1,400-1,750 fps for 1,000-1560 fpe, or roughly 2.5 to 4 times the muzzle energy of the .45 ACP.

If .45 ACP is a must, you could just get one of these, made by the same manufacturer. But if you must have a .45 ACP machine pistol, I would recommend a Glock 21 with an FSSG. That combo would go for around $900 these days (the same according to my SR rules).

QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
You're also supposed to use sub-sonic ammunition with a suppressor in order to get it to work properly. Which notably is less powerful than your standard round.

That depends entirely upon the cartridge and the application. A lot of the time, the major intention of a suppressor is to keep the sound pressure of the muzzle blast below the threshold of pain for the user (141dB), allowing them to operate much more freely, as they have the ability to hear what's going on around them readily.

And to again echo what others have said, gas vents and suppressors together are generally a no-no. A suppressor is used to contain high pressure gases, reduce their pressure and release them slowly. A "gas vent" uses said high pressure gases to counteract the upward motion of the barrel. The less pressure there is, the less effective the "gas vent" is. So these two are pretty much mutually exclusive, unless the gas vents are part of the suppressor mount and the suppressor covers them while it is mounted to the gun. Then the gas vents would operate normally while the suppressor isn't attached, and the suppressor would act normally when it is attached. Incidentally, because of the way a suppressor works, it mitigates recoil pretty well all on its own.
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