It's absurd. If an augmented skill can't go above 1.5 * the base skill, it renders a lot of things useless/overpriced.

1) Don't bother buying a specialization unless you have at least 2 ranks in something. If you only have 1 rank, the augmented max is... 1. In fact, you don't even get the full benefit from a specialization until you have a base rank of 4!

2) There is NO point in ever having Improved Ability at a rank higher than 3. And if you have Improved Ability in something, don't bother with specializations. They'll go to waste.

3) Codeslinger is practically useless. Basically, it allows you to get a second specialization in some Matrix action. But it suffers from the same problems as in (1).

4) The book violates these principles all over the place.

I therefore propose an ALTERNATE interpretation. First, the passage in question:

"The unmodified skill rating assigned at character creation
or purchased during game play is considered to be the character’s
base skill rating. Some spells, abilities and implants may
provide bonus dice to a skill, creating a modified skill rating,
but this does not change the base skill rating. These extra dice
are listed in parentheses after the base skill, as in Spellcasting
4 (+2). A modified skill cannot exceed the base skill rating x
1.5 (making 9 the maximum possible rating, or 10 with the
Aptitude Quality)."

The current interpretation says: You cannot have more things adding to a particular skill roll than .5 * base skill. So if you have Pistol (Revolver) 6(+2), and Improved Ability (Pistol) 2, you would only be rolling 9 + Attribute dice.

I propose a different interpretation. It states: "Some spells, abilities and implants may provide bonus dice to a skill, creating a modified skill rating, but this does not change the base skill rating. These extra dice are listed in parentheses after the base skill, as in Spellcasting 4 (+2)". Specializations don't "provide bonus dice to a skill". They provide bonus dice to a particular use of a skill. (I'm rules lawyering. I want my 25 dice on Exploit damnit ) So, unless something adds dice to ALL uses of a skill, it doesn't count towards the 1.5 * Base Skill cap.

That still leaves the problem that Improved Ability beyond Rating 3 is useless, but, one problem at a time.

Calypso

My DM even counts smartlink towards this limit!

Oops, i was confused with attribute maxs that are 1.5 the natural max (thought skills were too). So ya, -IF- Specializations are included in the cap they don't have full benefit till you reach higher Skill levels. But like a lot of things it's not super clear exactly what is included in the cap. Basically they didn't use as consistant terminology as they should have.

P.S. I'm pretty sure there was a Specialization in/out of cap thread, and thought that it was determined that Specialization was likely NOT included under the cap but still was open to a number of interpretation including interpretation that it was included as part of the natural skill....which brings entirely different results.

Meh, there's an easier way to deal with the issue. Take this rule...

As a GM, my take on this would be to apply the cap only to things I don't have to determine on the fly. Not because there's anything in the rules that implies this, but simply for the sake of my own sanity. If I (or the players), have to remember to apply the (1.5 * skill) cap while stacking up modifiers during play, we will forget it at least half the time, so I'd rather just throw the rule out entirely.

This means smartlinks, laser sights and specializations are not subject to the cap, because they may or may not apply depending on circumstances.

On the other hand, things like reflex recorders are written down on your character sheet, so I would apply the cap there. The same goes for Improved Ability, except that the description of it confuses things by seeming to override the cap.

Um in SR3 if you had skill at 1 you could not raise with improved ability past 1 anyway.

House Rules

Well, there are a few places in SR3 where you can do this.

Athletics has a number of sources of bonus dice: +1 for Enhanced Articulation, +1 per level of Synthacardium, +1 for Reflex Recorder, +2 for Oxygenated Flourocarbon blood replacement treatment, +2 for circulating the Oxy-Rush transient nanosystem, +2 for the erythropoeitin genetech, +1 per level of Move-By-Wire. If you had all of the above, with maximum levels in those that possess levels, you could have +14 dice, for what would amount to an effective Athletics of 1(15).

If you're some kind of freakish initiated nanoaugmented cyborg bioware-equipped adept who uses the last sliver of his magical power (which would almost have to come from one or more initiate grades, since your low Essence and high Bio Index throw you so far into the red) to further augment your inexplicably low natural athletics skill, you could even hit 1(16).

Stealth can do this also, thanks to move-by-wire, reflex recorder, and enhanced articulation. You could achieve +6 dice with this method, for a stealth of 1(7), or 1(8) if you are the aforementioned unskilled cybered adept Solid Snake wannabee.

Knowledge skills can be boosted by the presence of a mnemonic enhancer, and further augmented by the task pool provided by certain cyberware and bioware augmentations. Due to the nature of the situations and skills to which a task pool ended up applying, a task pool was effectively bonus dice to any given skill to which the task pool was applied. With a task pool of 3 (Cerebral Booster 2 and Encephalon 2), and Mnemonic Enhancer 3, you could effectively boost Knowledge and Language skills in a similar fashion to Athletics and Stealth.

The remaining skills tend to only be able to accumulate a +2 dice bonus with the best of circumstances.

The specific example, as one might guess from the post was Athletics: Synthacardium (2) +2, Reflex Recorder (Athletics) +1 and enhanced Articulation +1 -> +4.

If I understand correctly, the skill cap refers to only direct modifiers to the skill from implants, adept powers, and spells.

The cap does not seem to apply to pool modifiers, just skill. Pool modifiers such as superior position, visibility modifiers, reach, smartlinks, and the like should not impact the skill cap at all.

That is to say, if you have something that gives a "+X modifier to Y skill" then it obeys the skill cap. If you have something that gives a "+X modifier to Y test" then it does not.

At least, I'm hoping it's that simple.

Not that simple, as it caps pool modifiers for skills.

But basically, yes - if the bonus is applied to a specific skill, it is capped... if it is an unspecific bonus or listed otherwise as a general modifier, it isn't.

There's the fine point:

Just for clarification. You're talking about three different things here:
Attribute modifiers (which are usually listed in parenthesis besides the attribute as a single value and are capped);
Skill rating modifiers (which are usually listed in parenthesis besides the skill as a single value and are capped);
and Dice Pool modifiers (which are not listed on as part of either of the above and are not capped).

The latter are situational are never listed in parenthesis (ie. smartgun links and laser sights), they modify your dice pool after augmented Atts and Skills have been added together.

One thing I've been wondering lately is this:

If I am playing an gun adept, with pistols 6 and 4 points of improved ability, thats 1 point over my cap right? Is that a bad thing? Wouldn't it help negate negative dice modifiers?

So I attack with 9 dice normally, but if I get a -1 die it would just soak it right?

Here's the real issue - Improved Ability, which by all accounts should be subject to the skill cap, is worded thusly: "Improved Ability does not actually improve a skill’s rating, it only provides additional dice for tests involving the skill."

The same as smartlinks, the same as specializations, etc.

Calypso

Nothing actually improves a Skill Rating.

But, as quoted: It provides bonus dice to a specific skill, so it is capped ans an Augmented Skill Rating.

First, Smartlink is not skill-specific.
Second, it is explicitly listed as an Modifier.
Third, it isn't even necessarily an implant...

Okay, so now we need to do that for everything that adds dice. You're missing my overall point, which is: there are lots of things which add dice to skill uses. Which of those are subject to the cap? The book is all kinds of unclear.

Calypso

My entirely personal interpretation and house rule would be to declare the total amount of dice that can be rolled related to the skill portion of attribute + skill is 1.5 Skill cap. But that having extra dice can help offset penalties. This give a bonus to people who will modify over the cap, they have extra dice they can lose "off the top". The general affect would be in good conditions no one rolls more then ten dice for Skill, but that as the conditions worsen, the person with the most augmentation and positive modifiers will do better then someone who has less augmentation.

The point was to illustrate the differences between those three things by listing them and showing that only 2 out of the 3 were capped.

The sticking point for me is defining which of the 3 categories a bonus falls into. It's pretty easy to tell when something is an attribute modifier versus a skill modifier, but it's hard to tell sometimes (due to inexact or otherwise nonexplicit wording) when something is a dice pool modifier.

Like skill specializations -- by their nature they imply (at least to one interpretation) that they're a specialized bonus to a skill. However, the explicitly defined list of things that count towards skill caps are: implants, adept powers, and spells.

The RAW says skill specializations "add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill," which sounds exactly like the definition of a skill bonus. By comparison, a reflex recorder "adds a +1 dice pool bonus to a specific skill or skill group." That's invoking the "dice pool bonus" term as well as "specific skill" reference.

I wouldn't be pulling my hair out if they had just declared rigid terminology and used it consistently.

.... Like it'd be cool if they had clearly labeled things as either:

1) Skill modifier
2) Attribute modifier
3) Pool modifier

Then when they declared #1 and #2 capped at 150% of the base ratings, we'd know exactly where the line was drawn.

Heh.

Several key points of the SR4 character gen system is inherently designed to apply controls on character creation.

The cap on skill dice is a similar example - it doesn't make a lot of sense except to try and apply constraints on what kind of insanity players can bring to the table.

-Siege

So, would someone be willing to write a preliminary "Subject to Skill Cap/Not Subject to Skill Cap" list that we can then argue over?

( ) = Implied Attribute or Skill boost, otherwise it is explicit in the description
Attribute Modifiers
- Adept Power
-- Attribute Boost AGI|BOD|REA|STR p 187
-- Combat Sense REA p 187
-- Enhanced Perception (INT) p 187
-- Great Leap (AGI) p 187
-- Improved Physical Attribute AGI|BOD|REA|STR p 187
-- Improved Reflexes REA p 188
-- Rapid Healing BOD p 189
- Magic
-- Combat Sense REA p 198
-- Decrease Attribute AGI|BOD|REA|STR|INT|LOG|CHA|WIL p 200
-- Increase Attribute AGI|BOD|REA|STR|INT|LOG|CHA|WIL p 200
-- Increase Reflexes INI p200
-- Oxygenate BOD p 200
- Cyberware
-- Muscle Replacement STR + AGI p 334
-- Reaction Enhancer REA p 334
-- Wired Reflexes REA p 335
-- Cyber Limb BOD|STR|AGI p 336
- Bioware
-- Adrenal Pump STR + AGI + REA + WIL p338
-- Bone Density Augmentation BOD p 338
-- Muscle Augmentation STR p 339
-- Muscle Toner AGI p339
-- Suprathyroid Gland BOD + AGI + REA + STR p 339
-- Cerebral Booster LOG p 339
-- Pain Editor WIL p 340


Skill Modifiers
- Adept Power
-- Improved Ability p 187
- Magic
-- Analyze Device p 200
- Cyberware
-- Control Rig VEHICLE p 331
-- Skillwires ALL p 335
- Bioware
-- Enhanced Articulation PHYSICAL SKILL + PHYISCAL ATTRIBUTE p 338
-- Synthacardium ATHLETICS p 339
-- Tailored Pheromones CHARISMA + SOCIAL p 339
-- Reflex recorder PHYSICAL COMBAT p 340
-- Synaptic Booster REA p 340

Pool Modifiers
- Adept Power
-- Improved Sense p 188
-- Kinesics p 188
-- Natural Immunity p 188
-- Pain Resistance p 189
-- Spell Resistance p 189
- Magic
-- Analyze Device p 200
-- Antidote p 199
-- Cure Disease p 200
-- Confusion/Chaos p 201
- Cyberware
-- Olfactory Booster PERCEPTION p 331
-- Taste Booster PERCEPTION p 331
-- Smartlink TARGETING
- Bioware
-- Digestive Expansion RESIST TOXIN p 338
-- Pathogenic Defense RESIST TOXIN p 339
-- Symbiotes HEALING TEST p 339
-- Toxin Extractor RESIST TOXIN p 339
-- Tracheal Filter RESIST TOXIN p 339
-- Mnemonic Enhancer KNOWLEDGE + LANGUAGE + INSTRUCTION p 340


Most are pretty clear whether they are attribute, skill, or pool modifiers.

Declaring the dice bonus from Mnemonic Enhancer to Language and Knowledge Skills not capped gets the System back to absurd like it was.
(In fact, the wording is similar to Enhanced Articulation.)

PS: Synaptic Booster isn't skill-related.

And in SR6 there will be one stat: "Coolness."

Player 1: I kick down the door!
GM: Roll Coolness.
Player 2: I shoot at Player 1!
GM: Roll Coolness. Player 1, roll Coolness to defend.

.... Kinda like how World War 4 will be fought with sticks and rocks.

Read the description for specializations on p109. It specifically describes that you need a minimum of 1 in a skill to be specialized, and gives an example of Pistols 3 with a specialization. The specialization adds to the test, but not to the skill.

I interpret this to mean that only items which actually modify a skill or attribute (for example, cerebral booster to Logic) are capped.

I also declare this to be a very stupid rule.

I agree it's stupid. I think it's kind of unnecessary - I mean, yes, you can get ridiculous dice pools, but you already can, and to do so generally costs a lot of a character's resources. (F'rex, my Gun Fu Adept can toss, I think it's 18 dice to shooting things with a revolver, but that costs a total of about 117 BP to do that [admittedly, some of the things contained in that cost do other things (namely, race and agility) but still, very expensive.])

'abilities' is no TT, and thus covers nearly anything from specialisations, qualities or adept/critter powers or the like...