Eyeless Blond
Oct 9 2005, 06:33 PM
The SR4 contact system at chargen is decent enough, but it has a massive flaw in it. Namely, it's far cheaper and more effective to throw all your contact points into a single contact who's both loyal and has far-reaching influence than getting lots of lower-level contacts spread over many different backgrounds. Even the Face archtype in the book bows to this pressure; it used to be that a good face had dozens of people he could get in contact with for a job, now he's far better off getting only one very loyal fixer contact and letting them FOF for you.
I think we can do better. So here's my first, very rough attempt at a patch:
1) Buy Contact Points rather like resources. You get 5 Contact Points for every Build Point you spend on contacts.
2) for formula for contact cost is changed to Connections^2 + Loyalty^2. Thus a Connections 3 Loyalty 2 contact would cost 3^2 + 2^2 = 9+4=13 points.
Does that sound like it would be interesting? In this way low-level contacts would be much cheaper (you can get nearly 2.5 times as many now for your BP) but high-level ones will cost even more (Loyalty 6-Connections 6 would cost 14BP).
Siege
Oct 9 2005, 07:05 PM
Interesting.
- The GM should always have absolute veto power or deal with the consequences. I haven't had any luck in articulating a rule or set of rules to keep a cheese-monkey from taking Dunklezahn as a contact, which forces a certain amount of responsibility on the part of players and GM.
- A silly amount of math to complicate what should be a fundamentally simple process.
- The d6 availability check serves to limit the practical usefulness of highly influential contacts.
- Just because a contact is amazingly influential and devoutly loyal doesn't mean they actually have the capacity to provide meaningful assistance.
I'd suggest a cascading point cost, just to keep things simple.
- Rating 1 costs 1 point
- Rating 2 costs 4 points
- Rating 3 costs 6 points
- Rating 4 costs 8 points
- Rating 5 costs 10 points
- Rating 6 costs 12 points
Cost = (Rating x2)
Edit 3:
QUOTE |
Using the above formula, a Loyalty 3/Influence 2 contact would cost: Loyalty 3 (x2 = 6) + Influence 2 (x2 =4) = 10 total points.
|
The drawback being, the increased point cost requires a dedicated expenditure of BP. I'd suggest a slight increase in contact points for BP - say 2 contact points per Build Point.
Possibly a higher point cost for Influence?
-Siege
Edit: For Code.
Edit: Increasing costs and subsequently increasing CP simply adjusts the overall scale higher.
NightRain
Oct 9 2005, 08:01 PM
The thing to remember is that the amount and types of favours your contact will expect off of you in turn hangs on their rating. And if you have an Oyabun that is willing to take a bullet for you, you can expect that he'll be wanting some pretty hair raising favours from you in return
Siege
Oct 9 2005, 08:23 PM
I'd also draw the line at characters having a contact with major crime figures, but that's just me.
-Siege
blakkie
Oct 10 2005, 12:32 AM
You don't need to have one of those defunct Flaws to balance them out, because you just paid 12BP for the privilage of being mostly ignored but on the occation you aren't ignored you are likely screwed.
You got to deal with [Bricktop]. You just got to make sure you don't end up owing him. Cause then you're in his debt. Which means, you're in his pocket. And once you're in that, you ain't ever coming out." - Turish, Snatch
The only possibily good thing about that suggestion is a way try make contact less expensive overall. If you look through the contacts section to see what they give you, generally they buy you the privilage of paying more money. The best deals are likely around 7-8BP, but IMO even they are about maybe 60% over priced.
What i'd likely do is push the contacts up a level, spacing out the 1 & 2 into 1, 2, & 3. What is currently listed as level 6 joins up with dragons, high level free spirits, AAA corp CEOs, etc. in the "You don't really want these people as friends, and we aren't going to let starting character commit suicide by taking them" catagory.
Then change the BP cost for Contacts to (total off all Connections+Loyalties)/2.
Siege
Oct 10 2005, 12:52 AM
Making higher-level contacts a double-edged sword?
Doesn't that defeat the point of having a Loyalty rating?
-Siege
SL James
Oct 10 2005, 01:24 AM
You'd think.
Personally, I just redid the entire Social Situation Modifiers table and have PCs make a Negotiations Test based on the apparent loyalty. Connections is a bit more complicated, but it works.
NightRain
Oct 10 2005, 01:31 AM
QUOTE (Siege) |
Making higher-level contacts a double-edged sword?
Doesn't that defeat the point of having a Loyalty rating? |
But they already are. Someone who is willing to take a bullet for you is going to expect a lot more of you than someone who is merely willing to listen to you speak. Someone who will put their life on the line for you expects you to in turn go out of your way for them, even if not quite to the same level
blakkie
Oct 10 2005, 02:13 AM
QUOTE (Siege @ Oct 9 2005, 06:52 PM) |
Doesn't that defeat the point of having a Loyalty rating? |
Absolutely not. It is a function of the loyalty. After all you don't the leave the Mob, the Mob leaves you...beaten limp and buried alive in an Indiana cornfield. Loyalty is expected to go both ways.
Overall i like the changes to contacts, but think the chargen costs are a bit out of line in, strongly discouraging taking contacts.
Chandon
Oct 10 2005, 02:50 AM
Consider "Face" as a character archetype, like Mage.
A good mage will spend about 90 points on stuff specific to being a mage like their magic attribute, buying spells, and having better mental attributes.
If you were to spend 90 points on contacts, you could get 18 3/2 or 2/3 contacts - easily enough to get the "Face" flavor right. If you mixed it up a bit, that could be 5@3/2, 5@2/3, and 4@5/5.
blakkie
Oct 10 2005, 04:59 AM
QUOTE (Chandon @ Oct 9 2005, 08:50 PM) |
Consider "Face" as a character archetype, like Mage.
A good mage will spend about 90 points on stuff specific to being a mage like their magic attribute, buying spells, and having better mental attributes.
If you were to spend 90 points on contacts, you could get 18 3/2 or 2/3 contacts - easily enough to get the "Face" flavor right. If you mixed it up a bit, that could be 5@3/2, 5@2/3, and 4@5/5. |
.... and no specialized Skills or Attribute? A crap face that would be.
Just jacking your Cha up a few points and 4 in the Influence Group (before other profession helpful skills and Attributes) sets you back at least 60 or 70 points.
EDIT: Besides if they intended every PC to take a couple of contacts, well the current costs strongly work against that.
Siege
Oct 10 2005, 05:05 AM
I gotta agree with Blak on this one - considering the pound-per-point exchange for BP and contact points, there's not a lot of mechanical incentive to acquire a large network of contacts.
Although it's amazingly useful to know all sorts to the inventive player.
-Siege
Serbitar
Oct 10 2005, 07:37 AM
House RulesMy house rule is: rating x loyalty. Together with the karma creation system.
blakkie
Oct 10 2005, 03:05 PM
I noticed this mentioned offhand in a separate thread. That's not too bad a mechanism to get a couple of Contacts for each PC, and naturally a boost to face types.
QUOTE (NightmareX) |
Check out the following character made with my system above. (Note he has Charisma x3 in free bp for contacts. It's a house rule we use). |
Eyeless Blond
Oct 10 2005, 09:43 PM
Hm. I wouldn't use the Attribute; attributes are too damn important already. How about something like Leadership x2 + (Skill) in BP for contacts, where (Skill) is any other CHA-linked social skill? I think good leaders should be able to attract more contacts.
But Serbitar's got a very impressive system there. That's really got to be posted somewhere important; it's SR4 BeCKS + SR4 Errata all in one neat little package!
Gothic Rose
Oct 10 2005, 10:12 PM
QUOTE (Serbitar) |
House Rules
My house rule is: rating x loyalty. Together with the karma creation system. |
Nothing shows up for me - I've tried multiple times on multiple days, it always says I time out. Odd.
FrankTrollman
Oct 10 2005, 10:27 PM
I like Connections x Loyalty, with 3 'contact points' per Build Point. The 6/6 Uber Contact still sets you back 12 BPs, but everything else costs less.
-Frank
Siege
Oct 17 2005, 07:36 AM
Has anyone just put an arbitrary cap on "Influence" ratings?
No "Influence" rating over 4, for example.
How often do characters have contacts that rate as having "Influence" over 4?
-Siege
NightRain
Oct 17 2005, 07:57 AM
I think perhaps a better cap is to cap the total, rather than any one score. Cap it at say 8, and then you can have an influence 6 contact for example, but you're still just his client, rather than a friend (6/2)
Or you can have a Gang Boss that is a good buddy (4/4), or a gang member that is willing to take a bullet for you(2/6), or an experienced shadowrunner who is willing to back you in a tough situation (3/5)
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