http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6960/pr...edatoriv9xe.jpg

I know it's a heavy pistol, but I don't see any reason for the weapon to be quite as big as that.

How could a runner possibly get away with saying that's for personal protection?

Trolls are big and tough. *shrug*

well, in 2070 you have to worry about things like packs of ghouls, devil/demon rats, vampires, and such. i expect that would help.

[edit] and that's just if you live in the city! [/edit]

A troll modified Predator IV would be a heck of a lot larger even. Can you imagine a human trying to run around with that hand cannon?

The sights on that thing are giant fins. It's impossible to determine where the trigger guard ends and the barrel begins.

The entire frame is HUGE. Anyone know how one could hide that on their person?

To quote Pulp Fiction "Did you see the size of that gun? It was bigger than him."

Also, aren't ghouls considered citizens in Seattle?

maybe I'm a freak, but it doesn't look that oversized to me. It would be hard to conceal on yourself as all heavy pistols are anyways, but the only really oversized part IMO is the barrel. That extra part beneath it makes it look a bit thick. But hey maybe that's where the smartlink is.

A Colt 1911 is considered a heavy pistol in this day and age. That weapon is not large. If you compare that thing to something like a Deasert Eagle, you will see that the predator is larger in comparison. And Desert Eagles are huge.

Take a look at that Predator picture again and put you hand up to the handle as if you were gripping the image like a gun. You will see what I mean (hopefully)

Anything smaller than the image I posted could not be held in one hand. I have very feminine hands and I have troubles with considering that a good size to grip with my hand. So the gun might even be a little bit bigger.

And as far as ghouls go, it does not say that they are not citizens. Ghouls are merely humans and metahumans infected with the HMHVV. Special Order 162 was passed in Illinois Legislature providing protection to ghouls and enforcing the inability to pass them off as mere monsters. Ghouls are people too, dagnabbit!

But boy! Is that gun big!

ok i want someone to take into context the scale here of that picture...look at the size of the handgrip vs barrel length and you have something akin to the .45's from the movie "Punisher" you know the ones his old man was showing him just before the drek hit the fan. in fact i would say that those .45's were the same size as this if not slightly longer.

and i'm still wanting my salvette guardians back along with my AS-7

Colt 1911 is .45 ACP as I had mentioned above. Saying that is a small weapon is an understatement.

Edit: Also, the size of the weapons in The Punisher movie were larger for "dramatic effect". What kind of comic hero weilds a hold out pistol?

My reactions to the picture, in proper order:

"Oh, that's no bigger than my magnum..."
"Hmm.... wait a sec, that handle seems a bit on the smallish side...."
"Maybe I just have my resolution running a bit high for the size comparison."
"Save. Open. Zoom. Zoom again. Zoom again."
"There we go, now the handle is about.... OH SWEET JESUS! What did they do, saw down a rifle?!"

Needless to say, yeah, someone needs to start doing some minor reality checking with the artist on these types of details.

Basing it on the handle and the trigger guard spacing would be the best, since those maintain a (reasonably) steady size from gun to gun. And a scale would be nice.

Just so everyone knows, this pictures comes from the pdf version of the SR4 book, page 307. Zoom in, it looks scrunched at full resolution but I'll be amazed if it isn't all there.

However, looking at it scrunched up in to the wording and how it fits neatly within three lines, I think this argument may be for naught. I believe based on my examination of the picture in it's environment it was 'squeezed' during the editing to fit in it's assigned space.

Where is the vector file version of it? EDIT: Oh, i see. It's vector in the PDF. That doesn't mean a huge amount, it just means it was drawn in electronic format. *shrug*

P.S. It's not like it is anime (edit: linked a smaller, static file) proprotioned "handgun".

No... the vector version is found in Firearms.

The... other... version is found right at the beginning of Street Gear, p. 299.

Foremost, it looks ugly and distorted...

The Predator IV in the drawing with the guy doesn't have all the excess stuff under the barrel and in front of the trigger guard. So the gun doesn't look as bulky in that image... just really long.... which it is

Edit: What is the purpose of all the junk under the barrel anyway? Predator IV doesn't come standard with a smartlink...

Not exactly my point, but having a female human character who is not the largest of people, I would look like a joke having a gun that's as heavy and large as myself.

And Blakie Hits apon the crux of the matter. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the mass of the Ares Predator was empty casing and lightweight plastic to make the gun look bigger. From Ares' perspective, the advantage would be twofold. One, the gun would look more intimidating. This would mean that people trying to compensate for the size of their penis would flock to it. Second, it makes the gun harder to conceal, which aids law enforcement and security in licating them. Just because Ares wants to sell you a gun doesn't mean they want you to Use it, especiallly for Illegal purposes. (That would give their gun a bad name.) they especially don't want you to sneak paast Their Own security with one.

However, the sheer size of the gun is impractical. It ahs no tactical advantage at all, and most people with common sense would not buy this weapon. Corporations design products aiming for consumers to buy it. Considering the size of the weapon, I would not buy it.

what, you mean common sense like "don't sneak into the head offices of one of the Big Ten and kidnap someone?"

hmmm... nope. don't think shadowrunners are all that possessed of "common sense". but that's just how it looks to me. i mean, it's not like shadowrunning will get you killed... except that that's exactly what's likely to happen.

sure, it may not be marketted towards small women... but to a ganger, or someone like that, bigger=better (in their minds, at least).

Rotbart: But those aren't as big as all that slack space that could be removed from that gun. But agreed on that note.

Jaid: Even orks would have a problem with the size of that gun. Not to mention that Ares' name would be shot down if they were known for making weapons for crime *snicker*

i would argue that the average humanis fanatic (can you even have an 'average' fanatic? meh. whatever) is not fundamentally that different from a ganger.

And in most cases bigger IS better. The cartridge size of 10mm does not reflect in the weapon size a great deal. At least in the case of the Predator IV, the weapon should not be nearly as large considering the ammo type.

Do what Robocop does. Conceal it in your cyberleg.
(After all, the art for the original Predator was almost a carbon copy of Robocop's gun.)

Hrm, I'll have to go look up the rules again for resizing equipment. I wonder if I can get my Pred4 in "petite" sizes.

Or, hey, how about a supersized iBall.

Actions creating equal and opposite reactions the way hey do, larger guns are easier to fire than smaller ones. You can make a zip-gun that is essentially just a heavy pistol round and a detonator - but actually firing it will take your hand off.

When a bullet is propelled forward out of a gun, every part of the gun is propelled backwards with equal force. And then each part of the gun hits the hand of the person pulling the trigger. So if the entire gun is only as massive as the bullet, then firing the weapon it is just like getting hit with the weapon at point blank range. Conversely, a very massive gun is going to be accelerated only slightly, and simply move the wielder's hand backwards.

Integral systems that transfer that backwards momentm into other forms of energy (such as internal motion like the recocking mechanism of an automatic) can make firing a weapon even less obtrusive - and these take up space and mass.

---

So in all likelihood, the Predator IV is a ladies weapon. With all the mass and gewgaws on it, it probably has virtually imperceptible recoil. Pulling the trigger on that bad boy is a verifiable dream compared to pulling the trigger on a Walther Palm. So small framed people would flock to that weapon, while the very strong and tough would be more tempted by the smaller weapons. A bit counterintuitive perhaps, but that's physics for you.

-Frank

++ [ well i am the artist who did this illo so i'll jump into the fray // the gun was based off the other predator pistols from the Shadowrun line // the original predator pictured in the second BBB and the Predator 2 from the Street Samurai book // the originl predator is a straight up copy of the pistol used in Robocop and i used that as a base, putting in the Desert Eagle .50 for good measure // now the gun itself is rather lightweight and (unseen in the illo ) rather thin, no wider than a 1911 so i went long to show that all that wonderful tech being crammed in as well as using the length to compensate a bit for the recoil // as for who would buy it, the gun is marketed towards Mercs, security personnel and law enforcement as a visible holstered sidearm ( you want something smaller go Colt Manhunter or one of the other "light pistols" ) and I think the gun is just a bit longer than the Guardian pic from the Fields of Fire book // c'mon people, this is the Predator..its supposed to be the ideal pistol for the runner/gunner with something to compensate for who knows that size matters (and don't want to carry the Super Warhawk..which is longer than the Pred 4 by the way ) // all in all, i'm a Shadowrun fan and in all the novels and sourcebooks that i've read i've never seen a Predator used as a concealable weapon // it is there to scare the hell out of people and to give the pistol whippin' to end all pistol whippins' ] ++

++ [ if you want to see some of the other illo's i did get the pdf...or check out my temp site http://br0uhaha.deviantart.com (those Deviantart comments still smart a bit from the sr4 cover topic | ouch | ) ] ++

++ [ also, to those who have the pdf of sr4, find the pic with the goggles that i did and zoom in to about 1600 to read the stuff on the second pair down // that is if your copy kept the illos as vector drawings ] ++

++ [ oh, and in the brief that i got to do the picture the Predator IV came with a Smartlink system....] ++

just a note, the ++[ ]++ stuff is really distracting and unlikeable imo.

++[how so?]++ just kidding


also on the goggles thing... Easter eggs in sourcebook PDFs now? will the dead tree version have it?