Full Version: shapeshifter
ayn rules for shapeshifters in 4th?
Not yet, give me a few weeks.
| QUOTE (Straight Razor @ Oct 19 2005, 08:51 AM) |
| ayn rules for shapeshifters in 4th? |
The only mention of shapeshifters is a reference in the ordinary critters that the alpha male of a wolf pack is often a shapeshifter.
EDIT: Correction, they are also mentioned as given as an example in the Uneducated negative Qualitiy (formerly Flaw) and in the Skill rating examples as someone that is "unaware" (not allowed to Default) for Technical skills (a product of being Uneducated).
However the [NPC] Regeneration power got a rework, and it is now entirely PC playable. In fact it might have gotten toned down too far by keeping the called shot to the head/spine. Regeneration only recovers the number of hits from a Magic+Body test in boxes of damage (Physical or Stun) at the end of the Combat Turn. If after one Regen test is applied they are still "dead" then they stay dead.
Well Uncle Ben does at least.
I like the new regen much better than the old (how can you not?). Makes 'em tough but not unkillable.
Personally I woulda been fine with saying they automatically heal only 1 box per round right before rolling Initiative for a new round. Stun first, then Physical, just like everyone else. It would have toned them down a whole lot, but it'd lose an extra roll of the dice and it'd be handy-but-not-gamebreaking enough to keep me comfortable with PC 'shifters.
But anyway, whaddya guess at the racial BP cost for if/when they come out? 50? 40+(animalform adjustment)?
Personally I woulda been fine with saying they automatically heal only 1 box per round right before rolling Initiative for a new round. Stun first, then Physical, just like everyone else. It would have toned them down a whole lot, but it'd lose an extra roll of the dice and it'd be handy-but-not-gamebreaking enough to keep me comfortable with PC 'shifters.
But anyway, whaddya guess at the racial BP cost for if/when they come out? 50? 40+(animalform adjustment)?
dunno. now that regeneration is not so insane, i think 50 would be plenty. considering the improved physical stats are generally countered by the fact that they must improve two sets of physical stats. and considering the resource limitations they gave, and the built-in negative qualities, i think they might even go lower (hopefully they'll do it by type, this time though)
Yeah, that's what I meant about animalform adjustment. A weretiger should cost more than, like, a weretrout.
Depends a lot on whether they actually have to improve two separate set of stats. Also keep in mind that all awakened critters now have an inherent Magic attribute, so that's worth a lot if they get bonuses in character generation there.
Now that does mean that it will be incredibily difficult to make a non-Mage/non-Adept PC work (and i very seriously question a Shapeshifter Technomancer in anyway allowed), but such is life. Unless you have three special Qualities that mirror Magician, Adept, and Mystic Adept required by and for Shapeshifters only. Or Shapeshifter is a Quality, and costs more if you have one of the awakened Qualities. But that is bizzare, because they aren't actually a metahuman.
I like the SR4 Regeneration a lot better. But it is such that I don't think you actually need to leave that Called Shot option there because they are plenty vulnerable to mundane weapons without it.
Even a rather beefy Body 10 and Magic 5 they will only average 5 boxes. If they add say 3 Edge preroll that gets them up to 7 boxes. But that is for the entire Combat Turn, where they could have faced 2 or 3 damaging attacks from a single opponent. If
Also (depending on interpretation) it deals them a double whammy since the Called Shot can be doing as much as 4 boxes extra damage per successful hit itself. Just a couple Called Shots in Combat Turn and that'll, on average, effectively neutralize the Regenation for that Combat Turn in the above example.
Now that does mean that it will be incredibily difficult to make a non-Mage/non-Adept PC work (and i very seriously question a Shapeshifter Technomancer in anyway allowed), but such is life. Unless you have three special Qualities that mirror Magician, Adept, and Mystic Adept required by and for Shapeshifters only. Or Shapeshifter is a Quality, and costs more if you have one of the awakened Qualities. But that is bizzare, because they aren't actually a metahuman.
I like the SR4 Regeneration a lot better. But it is such that I don't think you actually need to leave that Called Shot option there because they are plenty vulnerable to mundane weapons without it.
Even a rather beefy Body 10 and Magic 5 they will only average 5 boxes. If they add say 3 Edge preroll that gets them up to 7 boxes. But that is for the entire Combat Turn, where they could have faced 2 or 3 damaging attacks from a single opponent. If
Also (depending on interpretation) it deals them a double whammy since the Called Shot can be doing as much as 4 boxes extra damage per successful hit itself. Just a couple Called Shots in Combat Turn and that'll, on average, effectively neutralize the Regenation for that Combat Turn in the above example.
maybe you should make it so that the extra damage from the called shot can't be regenerated, but the rest can (ie, if they take a -4 penalty to dice pool, they deal 4 points of damage that can't be regenerated, but the gun's damage, plus any additional damage from ammo type, extra hits, or bursts, are disregarded).
that still makes the called shot fairly appealing against regenerating critters IMO, but without making it cancel out regeneration completely.
that still makes the called shot fairly appealing against regenerating critters IMO, but without making it cancel out regeneration completely.
What's the general consensus on giving shifters 2 separate sets of physical stats? Would people rather do that, or give them one set, and just charge more for the shifter quality.
In other words, do you think that 'shifter' should cost something like 40-50 BPs and have them raise 2 sets of stats, or should shifter cost something like 100 - 120 BPs and have the physical human-form and animal form stats linked?
And, should the human form be allowed to be any human form (Fox-Troll, for example), or should the human form always have to be human?
In other words, do you think that 'shifter' should cost something like 40-50 BPs and have them raise 2 sets of stats, or should shifter cost something like 100 - 120 BPs and have the physical human-form and animal form stats linked?
And, should the human form be allowed to be any human form (Fox-Troll, for example), or should the human form always have to be human?
[ Spoiler ]
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| Yeah, that's what I meant about animalform adjustment. A weretiger should cost more than, like, a weretrout. |
...which in turn should cost less than a wererat. Tigerforms are vaguely impressive, but essentially are inferior to human forms wearing milspec armor and carrying lasers. The ability to fit through a 5cm opening, otoh, is priceless.
---
Shapeshifters certainly should not have to buy up 2 sets of physical stats. Assuming a roughly even split, that would be an extra 100 BP down the toilet. A wolf shapeshifter is supposed to be an unusually large and healthy wolf - if you had to purchase mental attributes, physical attributes, and more physical attributes that would be impossible on 400 - or even 500 BP.
-Frank
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| What's the general consensus on giving shifters 2 separate sets of physical stats? Would people rather do that, or give them one set, and just charge more for the shifter quality. |
I would rather have just one set of Physical stats for the wereform and modifiers (typically negative) to switch to their human form. I know normally you think of applying the modifier to go to wereform, but the wereform is the normal form for the creature and the human form is what they can appear as. A benefit is this reduces the benefit of the higher physical Attributes as they will have to buy them at the normally higher cost of their wereform.
| QUOTE |
| In other words, do you think that 'shifter' should cost something like 40-50 BPs and have them raise 2 sets of stats, or should shifter cost something like 100 - 120 BPs and have the physical human-form and animal form stats linked? |
I'm not sure that a BP range of 100 to 120 is needed. Besides what happens with the Magic attribute,
| QUOTE |
| And, should the human form be allowed to be any human form (Fox-Troll, for example), or should the human form always have to be human? |
Doesn't previous canon say only human form, same as dragons? Remember that they aren't actually human when in that form. Not to mention that it could get rather mucky with the physical attribute modifiers.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| maybe you should make it so that the extra damage from the called shot can't be regenerated, but the rest can (ie, if they take a -4 penalty to dice pool, they deal 4 points of damage that can't be regenerated, but the gun's damage, plus any additional damage from ammo type, extra hits, or bursts, are disregarded). |
I like that idea (even though i loath how Called Shot works). You'd have to track where Physical damage came from, but you already have to track that so no biggie. Ummm, i just thought of something. If a called shot is reduced to Stun because of armour (any self-respecting twink is going to have a faceshielded helmet and reenforced armour over the spine
) would it also not regenerate?
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| stats for average man: B3, A3, R3, S3 stats for average wolf: B2, A3, R3, S2 animal stats for wolf shifter: B(base-1), A(base), R(base), S(base-1) |
No, shapeshifters are NOT average members of the mundane variety of species. They aren't even members of the species (though IIRC it is assumed in canon that they are awakened from them, correct me if i'm wrong here). Therefore average stats of the mundane species are not directly applicable in that way.
Going back to SR3, it would be more along the lines of -1 Body, -1 Agility, and likely -1 Reaction applied to the normal Wolf form Attributes when in human form.
i could be mistaken, but i'm pretty sure that the stat mods for shapeshifters in SR3 are equal to (animal's base stats -3).
Depends. In the Critters book they used the mundane animal's base attributes +1 or +2, and "appear as large, well-formed members of" the species. Thus why the alpha male of the wolf pack is often a 'shifter.
If you go to the SRC where the PC version is given you'll see that none of the modifiers are negative, and none of the animal form modifiers are smaller than the human modifier for the same species.
EDIT: BTW the Seal in the Critter book has a Body 6, and Wolf a Body 5. But in the SRC they have matching modifers for Body. Also there is an Eagle shifter listed in the Critters book, but no Eagle in the mundane critters table. So you had to just make up 'shifter physical stats for them until SRC came out.
EDIT 2: Oh ya, and in critters the human form is always Body 5, and the Wolf form has Body 7. But in SRC the human form has a +1 and the Wolf has a +2.
EDIT 3: Oh, and a mundane Fox has Body 2, which gives him Critters Fox 'shifter Body 4, Critters humanform Fox 'shifter Body 5. But in SRC there are no Body modifiers for Fox 'shifters in either human or fox form.
If you go to the SRC where the PC version is given you'll see that none of the modifiers are negative, and none of the animal form modifiers are smaller than the human modifier for the same species.
EDIT: BTW the Seal in the Critter book has a Body 6, and Wolf a Body 5. But in the SRC they have matching modifers for Body. Also there is an Eagle shifter listed in the Critters book, but no Eagle in the mundane critters table. So you had to just make up 'shifter physical stats for them until SRC came out.
EDIT 2: Oh ya, and in critters the human form is always Body 5, and the Wolf form has Body 7. But in SRC the human form has a +1 and the Wolf has a +2.
EDIT 3: Oh, and a mundane Fox has Body 2, which gives him Critters Fox 'shifter Body 4, Critters humanform Fox 'shifter Body 5. But in SRC there are no Body modifiers for Fox 'shifters in either human or fox form.
Which is why we wish for consistent sensible rules for shifters.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Oct 19 2005, 01:56 PM) |
| Which is why we wish for consistent sensible rules for shifters. |
Which is why i would suggest it isn't a good idea to have a Wolf 'shifter be weaker and frailer in it's native Wolf form than in human form. The advantage to beinging in Wolf form is then limited to the second IP. Wolf form can choose to do the higher Physical damage unarmed, but until you get your Str up some the human form does pretty much as well with a kitchen knife or a chair leg.
EDIT: Oh, and they can run (but not walk) away faster.
Not to mention that they can pass for a dog of some sort, maybe allaying pursuit if the people after them don't know it can change.
And fit in smaller spaces.
And pay less for airfare since they can ship themselves in a crate.
And lick themselves without offending everyone.
And be naked in public.
And eat all kinds of things peole can't eat.
And fit in smaller spaces.
And pay less for airfare since they can ship themselves in a crate.
And lick themselves without offending everyone.
And be naked in public.
And eat all kinds of things peole can't eat.
Dog i get. Wolf? Errr, not so sure about that. I wouldn't want to count on being mistaken for a dog. *shrug* Also a large wolf isn't a lot different in size than a smallish adult, just shaped somewhat different. They can weigh up to 175lb.
The only thing a Wolf 'shifter would have over the Dog in natural form is the extra IP and an extra 5m running (mundane Wolf gets an extra point of Logic). Since you aren't likely to be spending much time in natural form in IP sensitive situations you might as well just be a Dog 'shifter. You'll fit in better in natural form, and you get the Scent power.
The only thing a Wolf 'shifter would have over the Dog in natural form is the extra IP and an extra 5m running (mundane Wolf gets an extra point of Logic). Since you aren't likely to be spending much time in natural form in IP sensitive situations you might as well just be a Dog 'shifter. You'll fit in better in natural form, and you get the Scent power.
One of my neighbors has an alaskan sled dog, and I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between that and a wolf. (yes, I've seen wolves up close too.)
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Oct 19 2005, 03:23 PM) |
| One of my neighbors has an alaskan sled dog, and I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between that and a wolf. (yes, I've seen wolves up close too.) |
Only it tends to work the other way "is that a wolf?". Especially in the situation you are talking about that is bad. That isn't blending. EDIT: Even some big-ass dog isn't going to blend that great.
Besides, I've always thought that in the more run down sections of the city (The barrens), Urban wolves aren't all that uncommon.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| Besides, I've always thought that in the more run down sections of the city (The barrens), Urban wolves aren't all that uncommon. |
Unless wolves have changed in behavior alot by then, no. Coyotes? Sure, you see them in parks inside major cities even today. But wolves don't do urban or anything remotely close to it.
| QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 19 2005, 02:21 PM) |
| A benefit is this reduces the benefit of the higher physical Attributes as they will have to buy them at the normally higher cost of their wereform. |
But in SR4 isn't the cost of raising attributes the same regardless of how high they are (except for the last point)?
| QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 19 2005, 02:21 PM) |
| Depends. In the Critters book they used the mundane animal's base attributes +1 or +2, and "appear as large, well-formed members of" the species. Thus why the alpha male of the wolf pack is often a 'shifter. |
That's because the shifter, being an uncivilized, uneducated wild thing, spent all it's build points on attributes and none on contacts or skills except for Wilderness Survival, and possibly Athletics.
and unarmed combat. or whatever the shifter calls it.
| QUOTE (Apathy) | ||
That's because the shifter, being an uncivilized, uneducated wild thing, spent all it's build points on attributes and none on contacts or skills except for Wilderness Survival, and possibly Athletics. |
| QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 19 2005, 04:47 PM) |
| and unarmed combat. or whatever the shifter calls it. |
Don't they, in critter form, just default to Reaction for their combat skill?
[edit]
| QUOTE |
| Going back to SR3, it would be more along the lines of -1 Body, -1 Agility, and likely -1 Reaction applied to the normal Wolf form Attributes when in human form. |
SR4 doesn't seem to have stats for the bear, but I'm thinking average Body would be around an 8? Which would mean your larger than average bear [shifter] would have an average Body of around 10? and when I shift back to human, I'll drop 7 Body, back down to 3...
Yeah, that works for me. They're hosed fighting without armor, anyway.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| Don't they, in critter form, just default to Reaction for their combat skill? |
SR4's treatment of critters so far is to give them a skillset that represents "the creature's natural instinctive knowledge and innate ability."
BTW PlatonicPimp, i think i get what you are trying to do. Use a template approach that you can apply to any mundane critter? But in the end you have to custom tweak each for balance anyway.
How about skills? I think that shifters should have to buy separate skills for things like athletics, infiltration, unarmed combat, etc when in animal form. Thoughts?
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| How about skills? I think that shifters should have to buy separate skills for things like athletics, infiltration, unarmed combat, etc when in animal form. Thoughts? |
Will you require the same of a magic user who likes to sustain the [Critter] Form spell?
hmmm...good point...
I think "yes, I will". Alternately, I'll let them default to an attribute, or to the human version of the skill as a linked skill.
[edit] and I guess that should work both ways, too. If the leopard shifter has an athletics (running) skill of 5(7), then he should be able to default to that in human form with the linked skill penalty.
[edit2] qualities, though, should probably just apply equally to both, since some (like magic user) obviously apply to both, it'd be too much of a pain to keep track of which ones should and which ones shouldn't.
I think "yes, I will". Alternately, I'll let them default to an attribute, or to the human version of the skill as a linked skill.
[edit] and I guess that should work both ways, too. If the leopard shifter has an athletics (running) skill of 5(7), then he should be able to default to that in human form with the linked skill penalty.
[edit2] qualities, though, should probably just apply equally to both, since some (like magic user) obviously apply to both, it'd be too much of a pain to keep track of which ones should and which ones shouldn't.
Another to cosider: Dragons with the Metahuman Form power.
Also, for Shapeshifters and Dragons, if you are going to go the route of having to learn the skill for a new form, or default to the other form's version as a linked skill, keep in mind that the human form is their "alternate" and that their critter form should be considered their base or natural form.
Also, for Shapeshifters and Dragons, if you are going to go the route of having to learn the skill for a new form, or default to the other form's version as a linked skill, keep in mind that the human form is their "alternate" and that their critter form should be considered their base or natural form.
| QUOTE |
| Another to cosider: Dragons with the Metahuman Form power. |
Since I'll never let my PCs play a dragon, I'm not going to worry about them much. Besides over the millenia they build up too much karma anyway; they've got to spend it on something...
| QUOTE |
| Also, for Shapeshifters and Dragons, if you are going to go the route of having to learn the skill for a new form, or default to the other form's version as a linked skill, keep in mind that the human form is their "alternate" and that their critter form should be considered their base or natural form. |
Not meaning to be flip, but don't know SR4 well enough yet to realize how this is significant.
When you are talking defaulting with a "linked skill penalty" do you mean their die pool is Current Form's Attribute+Other Form's Skill-1? Because that starts making it pretty much a no-brainer to just pick a native form for a given skill and going from there. The cost of the one extra die from buying up the other form's skill is brutal. To go from an effective 5 die to a true 6 die is going to cost 63 karma alone, plus all that training time.
P.S. So what is the line that you'd draw for which Skill has to be relearned or taken at a penalty?
P.S. So what is the line that you'd draw for which Skill has to be relearned or taken at a penalty?
Don't know. I'm not sure that there is a line. I'm looking for feedback from everybody else on this.
I don't want to screw over shifter PCs; I just don't think it makes sense that something used to running on 4 legs would be equally coordinated running on 2.
[edit] Of course, most of the skills couldn't be learned in animal form at all. Can't learn electronics if you don't have fingers...
I don't want to screw over shifter PCs; I just don't think it makes sense that something used to running on 4 legs would be equally coordinated running on 2.
[edit] Of course, most of the skills couldn't be learned in animal form at all. Can't learn electronics if you don't have fingers...
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| I don't want to screw over shifter PCs; I just don't think it makes sense that something used to running on 4 legs would be equally coordinated running on 2. |
I don't know. Remember, they are native to both forms. They have used both forms for a long time. It's not like a mage who turns in to a wolf; unless he sustains a year or two, the wolf form will always feel un-natural to him. Shifters don't fell unnatural in either of their forms, even if they prefer one form to another.
To me, it makes sense that a cheetah shifter that can run faster than any other living cheetah when in cat form runs faster than normal humans when in human form. The animal traits show echos in human form, and in my mind, this is much the same thing
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| [edit] Of course, most of the skills couldn't be learned in animal form at all. Can't learn electronics if you don't have fingers... |
I'd disagree there. You can learn, you'll just have to use a trode net and drone to get the physical work done.
But of course that is rather academic (yuck, yuck, snort) since 'shifters have that big, fat 20 BP Uneducated Quality they aren't likely to have anything siginificant in Electronics or other book learnin' skills.
| QUOTE (Apathy @ Oct 19 2005, 03:45 PM) | ||
That's because the shifter, being an uncivilized, uneducated wild thing, spent all it's build points on attributes and none on contacts or skills except for Wilderness Survival, and possibly Athletics. |
Riiiiight... special... and elves, being aristocratic and combat monsters put all their points into charisma and agility...
a trode net designed to work for a metahuman isn't going to work for a shapeshifter in animal form. you'd need a trode net designed for that particular species. it wouldn't be outside the bounds of possibility for a shapeshifter to need a specially-designed trode net, made to work with shapeshifter brains, since shapeshifters are not actually a member of either species that they appear to be.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Oct 19 2005, 05:40 PM) |
| a trode net designed to work for a metahuman isn't going to work for a shapeshifter in animal form. |
It certainly isn't much of a stretch from a trode net that works on the full range of metatypes. It'd likely require some specific parameters, perhaps even some hardware tweaks. But it should be good to go after that.
EDIT:
| QUOTE |
| it wouldn't be outside the bounds of possibility for a shapeshifter to need a specially-designed trode net, made to work with shapeshifter brains, since shapeshifters are not actually a member of either species that they appear to be. |
Ya, basically that. I could even see it as a normal trode net hand modified. If you are wondering how a 'shifter would end up with such an item, there are sentient creature rights groups that would have an interest in distributing them.
That'd be interesting. Its not really that big tough looking guy hacking that door, its his strange dog with a fancy elastic collar.
Of course any IC damage he takes, by RAW, would not be Regenerated.
Fine by me. I like the regen concept, but its a little... ummm.. uber... in its SR3 form for my taste. 
[thread necromancy]
So, how many build points should shifters cost?
Balancing...
Should shifter build points vary depending on type of shifter (i.e. tiger shifter would cost more than seal shifters), or should we make up other balancing factors for them like -2 Magic for tigers (critters does say magic is rare among them), and the allergies for cheetahs?
Should we have lots of varieties of animal forms to choose from or just the canon ones from SR3 Critters (Bear/Cheetah/Eagle/Fox/Tiger/Seal/Wolf)?
Here's a straw man set of guidelines to get the flames started (I'm just making it up on the fly, so I don't mind if you tear it to shreds. But please suggest something better if you don't like it):
So, how many build points should shifters cost?
Balancing...
- the coolness of having two forms vs the suckiness of a hunted flaw and being easily spotted until you get masking
- the bonus of having huge dice pools in animal form with the drawback of not having armor and being naked when you shift back.
Should shifter build points vary depending on type of shifter (i.e. tiger shifter would cost more than seal shifters), or should we make up other balancing factors for them like -2 Magic for tigers (critters does say magic is rare among them), and the allergies for cheetahs?
Should we have lots of varieties of animal forms to choose from or just the canon ones from SR3 Critters (Bear/Cheetah/Eagle/Fox/Tiger/Seal/Wolf)?
Here's a straw man set of guidelines to get the flames started (I'm just making it up on the fly, so I don't mind if you tear it to shreds. But please suggest something better if you don't like it):
[ Spoiler ]
There is no Hunted Quality in the BBB. You'll have to write that up separately, or just put in the description that in many jurisdictions there is a standing bounty for 'shifters, dead or alive, and that there is an unofficial cash market for live 'shifters.
What happens with the physical Attributes of Body and Strength for Eagles and Foxes? Do they rise when they go to human form? What about animal form movement rates for the ones that don't have mundane counterparts in the BBB?
EDIT: Oh, and is Edge 1-6 for them all?
Outside of that: Seal Body & Str seems a bit high, but i suppose they might not get a lot of use anyway outside of very specific campaigns. Bear gets dermal hardening like a Troll? Don't see that IMO, and that +8 is likely one point too many for Str/Body (even though -2 Magic is nasty). So you are thinking the same allergies for Cheetah as SR3? With IP 3 and those other stats they still might be a bit out of line (assuming you are aiming for a single BP price).
EDIT: Cut Cheetah back to IP 2, they are just another Big Cat (though they should have a kickass Run movement rate, 125 or better). With their allergies that gets them into the ballpark. The ballpark being something like....man, have to think on that some more.
What happens with the physical Attributes of Body and Strength for Eagles and Foxes? Do they rise when they go to human form? What about animal form movement rates for the ones that don't have mundane counterparts in the BBB?
EDIT: Oh, and is Edge 1-6 for them all?
Outside of that: Seal Body & Str seems a bit high, but i suppose they might not get a lot of use anyway outside of very specific campaigns. Bear gets dermal hardening like a Troll? Don't see that IMO, and that +8 is likely one point too many for Str/Body (even though -2 Magic is nasty). So you are thinking the same allergies for Cheetah as SR3? With IP 3 and those other stats they still might be a bit out of line (assuming you are aiming for a single BP price).
EDIT: Cut Cheetah back to IP 2, they are just another Big Cat (though they should have a kickass Run movement rate, 125 or better). With their allergies that gets them into the ballpark. The ballpark being something like....man, have to think on that some more.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| What happens with the physical Attributes of Body and Strength for Eagles and Foxes? Do they rise when they go to human form? |
I could see arguments for either way - what would you suggest?.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| What about animal form movement rates for the ones that don't have mundane counterparts in the BBB |
All of them are listed in SR3 critters except cheetah, and I'd go with 5 (one higher than normal big cat) for them.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| Oh, and is Edge 1-6 for them all? |
Yes - unless we decide that they should be penalized more than metas.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| Bear gets dermal hardening like a Troll? Don't see that IMO |
They had it in SR3 Critters (and rinos got 2 points, and elephants 3)
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| So you are thinking the same allergies for Cheetah as SR3? With IP 3 and those other stats they still might be a bit out of line (assuming you are aiming for a single BP price). |
I'm reluctant to use allergies as a balancing factor, since applied so inconsistently from one GM to another. I'll drop IP down to 2.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| The ballpark being something like....man, have to think on that some more. |
Well, let's see...Troll's 40BP, and they've got:
- (Good) +4 Body
(Bad) -1 Agility
(Bad) -1 Reaction
(Good) +4 Strength
(Bad) -2 Charisma
(Bad) -1 Intelligence
(Bad) -1 Logic
(Good) +Thermo
(Good) +1 Reach
(Good) +1 Dermal
(Bad) -Racism
- (Good) second form
(Good) (usually) +a lot of physical stats in animal form (on average, around +3 Body and Strength, +2 Agility and Reaction)
(Bad) (usually) -1 Magic
(Good) +1 Intuition
(Bad) -1 Logic
(Good) Regeneration
(Bad) Hunted
(Bad) Astral Signature
| QUOTE (Apathy @ Oct 21 2005, 03:14 PM) | ||
I could see arguments for either way - what would you suggest?. |
I'm thinking down only going to human form is likely the best.
| QUOTE | ||
All of them are listed in SR3 critters except cheetah, and I'd go with 5 (one higher than normal big cat) for them. |
??? Big Cats are 10/60 in SR4, and the SR3 movement rates aren't really directly convertable. Cheetah should definately have a run rate higher than the SR4 20/100 for Horses (though walking should still be down at 10).
| QUOTE | ||
They had it in SR3 Critters (and rinos got 2 points, and elephants 3) |
Ah yes, that weirdness. I guess it's something to do with hide and thickness before getting to the important bits. *shrug* Then definately you need to knock off 2 points from Body (and Str while you are at it) to 7-13 (+6). Remember that Regen is based off of Magic + Body, having a total of 15ish dice is a hell of a lot of Regen.
It would be best if you dropped the Agi bonus, and Rea too. Until the bear stats come out anyway. Or say for bear shifters that they are based on a smaller species.
| QUOTE | ||
I'm reluctant to use allergies as a balancing factor, since applied so inconsistently from one GM to another. I'll drop IP down to 2. |
Still high without the alergy. I understand the balance issue you are talking about, but a problem with balance created by a GM not applying a rule given to him is his (and his player's) problem. *shrug*
I'm thinking 60BP too, maybe 65BP. But would have to try it out to see. Those neg. qualities, and being dual natured, are damn nasty.
P.S. I don't like them all getting the +1 Intuitions, and the +2 to Eagle. I get the perception thing for Eagle, but giving him Improved Sense(Vision Mag) should take care of that.
| QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 21 2005, 08:41 PM) |
| P.S. I don't like them all getting the +1 Intuitions, and the +2 to Eagle. I get the perception thing for Eagle, but giving him Improved Sense(Vision Mag) should take care of that. |
I did that thinking that an animal nature would focus more on intuition than logic. Made sense to me at the time, anyway. Wouldn't the -1 to Logic balance it out?
[edit] I guess the problem would be that shifters will usually become shamans, rather than mages, and that they don't care much about Logic anyway, neh?
[edit2]
| QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 21 2005, 08:41 PM) |
| ??? Big Cats are 10/60 in SR4, and the SR3 movement rates aren't really directly convertable. Cheetah should definately have a run rate higher than the SR4 20/100 for Horses (though walking should still be down at 10). |
My bad, I had skipped over the movement section before. Cheetahs are sprinting animals, but don't actually run distance that much better than other cats (and not nearly as good as horses. What about something like 90/15, and extra dice for sprint test? Then again, since Combat usually lasts less than a minute, so they're not really going to be doing any long distance runs anyway... eh, I'd be happy with it either way.
[edit3]
| QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 21 2005, 08:41 PM) |
| Those neg. qualities, and being dual natured, are damn nasty. |
I don't remember anything saying that shifters were dual natured. Is this true? Also, I forgot to throw in the negative qualities of uneducated, and possibly uncouth. I think I'll probably apply both to shifters (technically a 40 point hit), but only charge them 30BP for race=shifter.
| QUOTE (Apathy @ Oct 21 2005, 09:21 PM) |
| [edit] I guess the problem would be that shifters will usually become shamans, rather than mages, and that they don't care much about Logic anyway, neh? |
More than that, they are Uneducated. I believe that all the skills linked to Logic (or very nearly all of them) are Technical Skills. They can't even Default to Logic for Technical Skills, and at double the cost to learn i doubt they will pick up more than a couple Skills ever and even those only a point or so so the GM will allow them basic use of things like a commlink (because Uneductated can force a skill check for things that normally wouldn't get one, they might need Computer (1) just to pay for the hot Soycaf at the Stuffer Shack)
So i find it very unlikely that a 'shifter PC is ever going to have more than a 3 or 4 in Logic, and certainly not starting out higher than that.
EDIT: I wouldn't give the Cheetah's a higher walking rate. That seems linked more to size than anything in SR4. Keep that at 10, and given your comments maybe make it 10/70 with +2 dice to Run Tests?
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| EDIT: I wouldn't give the Cheetah's a higher walking rate. That seems linked more to size than anything in SR4. Keep that at 10, and given your comments maybe make it 10/70 with +2 dice to Run Tests? |
+2 to run would only boost 70m/turn up to 74m/turn, assuming both dice succeed.
I guess a lot of my issues with movement apply to more than just the one animal. There's no factoring in acceleration. Cheetahs would go 0-70 in the blink of an eye, while horses would take seconds to build up as much speed, but then horses can eventually reach speeds faster than a cheetah, and maintain those speeds for longer before tiring. I don't think anything in the movement system is built to account for this, so maybe we should go with your original suggestion of making them damn fast, like 100 or 120, and their lower body scores will force them to take exhaustion tests sooner than horses.
(sorry I keep vacillating back and forth - can't seem to make up my mind...)
Oh, and I agree with you on the walk rate.
And lastly, what do you think the mental modifiers should be, if any?
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