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RunnerPaul
The Touch Link is an implant that allows tactile sensations to be input into the nervous system.

My question is, doesn't simsense already do this? I find it hard to belive the popularity of sim-porn if simsense couldn't already carry a sense track for touch.

The only explanation that I can think of is that it was possible to input sense tracks for all five senses under full-immersion VR, but when overlaying simsense tracks to create Augmented Reality, only visual and audio sense data can be overlaid without extra hardware.

Does that sound about right?

Feshy
QUOTE
The only explanation that I can think of is that it was possible to input sense tracks for all five senses under full-immersion VR, but when overlaying simsense tracks to create Augmented Reality, only visual and audio sense data can be overlaid without extra hardware.


Technically, visual and audio also require "extra hardware" in AR -- contacts, glasses, earbuds, headphones, that sort of thing. But otherwise, that's how I see it too. Also, I'm sure if you shopped around, you could find a "Tongue Trode" to deliver taste as well ...

I imagine the popularity of this 'ware will increase with the popularity of AR games.

One thing that has me wondering though -- often in the fluff text, there is talk of "virtual weather" and the like. To me, virtual weather would require either a) full simsense immersion, or b) the Touchlink implant. However, it is never listed as a requirement. Being able to see and hear sunshine and rain would certainly be possible for people without such an implant, but to FEEL it seems like the link would be required.
hobgoblin
i wonder if not its more talk about it being like a feedback link. so that you dont need vr gloves or something to touch and manipulate items in AR.

but this is me doing guesswork without the book again...
Serbitar
If you have a SIMlink, you dont need Imagelink (or glasses), Soundlink (or earplugs), Touchlink and any other links. If you dont have a SIMlink you need them. Its that easy.
Serbitar
If you have a SIMlink, you dont need Imagelink (or glasses), Soundlink (or earplugs), Touchlink and any other links. If you dont have a SIMlink you need them. Its that easy. This is somewhere in the rules, I forgot where. (Maybe at SIMlink or AR description)
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Feshy)
Technically, visual and audio also require "extra hardware" in AR -- contacts, glasses, earbuds, headphones, that sort of thing.
I meant extra hardware in the context of direct-neural-input.

The items you're listing: contacts, glasses, earbuds, headphones, and the like, are a different means of accessing AR all together, one that doesn't involve direct input into the user's nervous system. Touch Link's equivalent to the devices on the above list would be a full-body force feedback suit.

Anyway, I've taken a second look, and it'd appear that the listings for Image Link and Sound Link also seem to imply that these are required to do direct-neural-input AR Overlay for those senses as well. That's what's throwing me off about the whole issue.

When I had implemented a homebrew version of AR in my games under the previous edition, I'd been working off the assumption that to do overlay, all you needed was a properly formatted ASIST feed without using the RAS override to lock out the user's natural senses, or to cut out their motor control. That ASIST feed could be inputted into the user's brain via datajack or trodes.

However, the official SR4 version of AR seems to be saying that if you want AR overlay directly inputted into your nervous system, you need to get an implant (Image Link, Sound Link, Touch Link, Olfactory Booster, Taste Booster) for each individual sense you want overlaid.

Though at one point, the text seems to imply that if you have a commlink with a sim module, and a way to feed the output from that sim module into your brain (datajack, trodes, or simrig) you can experience AR that way. I suppose, if it's possible to get direct-neural-input AR through just a datajack, then the implants could possibly be a way for characters without a datajack to get direct-neural-input AR too. The implants would just have to be included on your PAN via skinlink (implants always count as touching you) and then your commlink could route the sensory data directly to each implant without needing a sim module or datajack.

Here's how I plan to handle the situation when I GM:
  • when using a commlink w/sim module connected to trodes/datajack/simrig, you can get a visual & audio AR overlay.
  • If you have a Image Link, Sound Link, Touch Link, Olfactory Booster, and/or Taste Booster implanted, and they're on your PAN, you can get AR Overlay for the appropriate sense from a skinlinked commlink, even if the commlink doesn't have a sim module.
  • In keeping with the paragraph that describes haptics on p.209 in the section on Augmented Reality, a Touch Link implant is required to get tactile AR Overlay.
  • I'm adding another implant, a Smell & Taste Link, for 1000¥, 0.1 essence, and none of the boosting functions of the Olfactory Booster and Taste Booster. Just the ability to recieve AR overlay for the senses of Smell and Taste.


QUOTE (Serbitar)
If you have a SIMlink
I don't remember seeing the word Simlink in the book. There's Sim modules, Simdecks, and Simrigs, do you mean one of those perhaps?
Doc Byte
@RunnerPaul: Where would you fit a cranial commlink in you interpretation?
blakkie
I put mine in where the frontal lobe used to be. I'm told that it feels great and fits fine.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Oct 24 2005, 07:41 PM)
@RunnerPaul: Where would you fit a cranial commlink in you interpretation?

See Blakkie's post.

Seriously though, as long as you spring for the sim module for your implanted commlink, you get Video and Audio AR Overlay just as you would have with a sim module equipped external commlink plugged into your datajack.

And since it seems to be the default assumption that your cyber implants all mesh network together into your PAN when it comes to interconnectivity, unless you or the item's description specifies that it only connects to certain things, an implanted comlink that didn't have a sim module would work just fine with Image Link and the like.
Serbitar
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)

QUOTE (Serbitar)
If you have a SIMlink
I don't remember seeing the word Simlink in the book. There's Sim modules, Simdecks, and Simrigs, do you mean one of those perhaps?

Ah, I meant SIM module. SIMlink must be the German thing.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Ah, I meant SIM module. SIMlink must be the German thing.

Probably.

Anyway, I re-read the paragraph on haptics on p.209 and noticed that the sentence that made mention of required "specialized cyberware" was actually refering to smell and taste, not touch. I may end up re-evaluating the guidelines I posted earlier, I'm not sure yet.
MaxHunter
IIRC whenever you have a sim module you do not need anything else. (but the trodes or a datajack)
If you haven't the sim module, then you need the proper gear: image link, touch link, sound link, etc.
Just as Serbitar said first.

Cheers,

Max
Vector
Also, IIRC the internal commlink comes with a sim module built in.
imperialus
QUOTE (blakkie)
I put mine in where the frontal lobe used to be. I'm told that it feels great and fits fine.

that explains a lot...
Rotbart van Dainig
Remember that running AR via Sim module makes you a target for emotional Spam... wink.gif
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (MaxHunter)
IIRC whenever you have a sim module you do not need anything else. (but the trodes or a datajack)
So when the book says "If you wan the full AR experience, you can translate AR input into smell and taste sensory data, but the specialized cyberware mods required for this cater to a small (and strange) market." (emphasis added) that's only for people who don't have sim modules on their commlinks, in your opinion?

Personally, I'm reversing what I came up with earlier in this thread, and now I'm going to say that the Sim Module can generate Video, Audio, and Tactile overlay. I am still going to require the olfactory booster, taste booster, or my homebrew smell & taste link for AR overlay of smell and taste.


QUOTE (Vector)
Also, IIRC the internal commlink comes with a sim module built in.
I can't find reference to that in the item descriptions in the gear chapter or the matrix chapter. Do you remember where you saw that?


QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Remember that running AR via Sim module makes you a target for emotional Spam... wink.gif
And it's a trivial hack to put an on/off switch on the emotive track outputs, should be even easier than modifying it to run Hot Sim/BTL. Any Shadowrunner worth the name should be requesting this from their local hardware hacker by default.
blakkie
QUOTE (imperialus)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 25 2005, 12:52 AM)
I put mine in where the frontal lobe used to be. I'm told that it feels great and fits fine.

that explains a lot...

Why i let you come over to my house? biggrin.gif
Doc Byte
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Oct 25 2005, 08:57 PM)
QUOTE (Vector)
Also, IIRC the internal commlink comes with a sim module built in.
I can't find reference to that in the item descriptions in the gear chapter or the matrix chapter. Do you remember where you saw that?

Chapter "Virtual Reality", 2nd paragraph. The last paragraph of the "Augmented Reality" Chapter gives some information about simsense and AR.

My problem's still where to put the cranial commlink?

"You need a sim module for your commlink to interpret the signals and feed you the data via a cyberware simrig, worn simrig, trode net, or datajack."

Obviously I don't need a trode net or datajack, as the cranial commlink's already connected to the brain. But do I need an additional simrig? I don't think so, but I can't find a hint in the rules.

Another strange thing: You still need a sim module plus datajack or trode net but no simrig to access full VR!

In my opinion you don't need any "senselink" at all for accessing AR, if you're running a sim module with a DNI.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
And it's a trivial hack to put an on/off switch on the emotive track outputs, should be even easier than modifying it to run Hot Sim/BTL.

In fact, selective Simsense by hardware is not covered by the rules... possible nonetheless.
Considering that the mod for Hot Sim is just removing the safeguards, it would be more complicated, too.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
In fact, selective Simsense by hardware is not covered by the rules... possible nonetheless.

The more I think about it, the more Rotbart's original observation makes sense that it's the fact that using a Sim Module leaves you vulnerable to AR data that features emotive tracks that is the reason why the "Link" implants are offered as an alternative.

At first, I was just thinking in the context of AR Spam at the local mall trying to induce consumerism-euphoria, but it could just as easily be some adversarial hacker cracking your commlink while you're in the middle of an op, and sending a big pulse of simsense emotive-track "fear" straight into your noggin.

Of course, there's the simple solution of hacking the sim module to make it produce just baseline sim, instead of the Full-X that includes the emotive tracks, but that's not always a viable option. For example, a deep cover op, where a runner would want to pose as just another corporate drone. After all, crippling a sim module isn't exactly the behavior of a conformist corporate citizen, and if there's a chance of getting caught and having your commlink inspected, it looks a lot better if it's just a stock, off the shelf model. They don't have to know that you left the sim module off all the time and just used your "link" implants to get your AR overlays.

PlatonicPimp
Also note that simsense, sometimes even legal level simsense, can be addictive, while these touch link things are not.
Orient
The sim module (and it's implanted counterpart, the simrig) is NOT used for AR. It's used for full immersion VR while your body just sits there. It's a combination ASSIST chip and RAS override - see previous editions for descriptions of those. That means it completely overrides input/output to your meat body, with the exception of heartbeat, breathing, etc. If you disable the RAS override, then you get conflicting signals - both from the full immersion VR and from your meat body. Previous editions gave characters massive penalties to all actions if they did this.

If you want AR, you want to be able to walk around, obviously. So you need to have ways of layering the new sensory input over your existing senses through contacts, goggles, Touch Links, gloves, etc.

I can post more on this later, when I have a bit more time...
NightRain
QUOTE (Orient @ Oct 27 2005, 01:21 AM)
The sim module (and it's implanted counterpart, the simrig) is NOT used for AR.

Time to quote the book smile.gif

Page 209

QUOTE
The easiest and most common way to get your AR fix, though, is through simsense. You need a sim module for your commlink to interpret the signals and feed you the data via a cyberware simrig, worn simrig, trode net, or datajack.
Rotbart van Dainig
Additionally, I would rule that using a Sim Module for Matrix Actions at all (even for AR) makes you vulnerable to Blackout/Black Hammer - don't know whether this is canon...
PlatonicPimp
I think that's not a bad ruling. Same thing for the emotive overlays, honestly. Sure, you can hack to turn them off, but can't the ads just as easily hack you back to turn it on? Surely the only way to maintain data security is to not have the hookup at all?
Orient
QUOTE (NightRain)
QUOTE (Orient @ Oct 27 2005, 01:21 AM)
The sim module (and it's implanted counterpart, the simrig) is NOT used for AR.

Time to quote the book smile.gif

Page 209

QUOTE
The easiest and most common way to get your AR fix, though, is through simsense. You need a sim module for your commlink to interpret the signals and feed you the data via a cyberware simrig, worn simrig, trode net, or datajack.

Heh. I should have held off until I had time to look it over more carefully.

Strange, though - that's not consistent with what they've published in the past, and certainly seems like it'd make all the other peripherals obsolete. I'll read it over when I have more time.. Is there any errata on it?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Additionally, I would rule that using a Sim Module for Matrix Actions at all (even for AR) makes you vulnerable to Blackout/Black Hammer
Makes sense to me, though keep in mind that unless you're running hot sim, you can only get stun damage. I'd have to check the book again, but I think running hot only gives you bonuses in VR and doesn't give you anything extra in AR.


QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Sure, you can hack to turn them off, but can't the ads just as easily hack you back to turn it on?
It'd require the AR spam to be packing a payload that would be able to determine if it had been delivered to a hacked commlink, figure out the nature of the particular hack, and toggle a setting that it had insufficent account privleges to access. Quite possible.

But that assumes your emotive track on/off switch was done entirely in software. It could just as easily be a hardware hack: a specific sequence of button presses on an external comlink, or a seperate DNI input path specifically reserved for the switch on an internal commlink. For those, you'd need to induce Psychotropic Black IC -style conditioning to compel the user to toggle the hardware switch. Still possible, but a lot harder.

RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Orient)
Strange, though - that's not consistent with what they've published in the past, and certainly seems like it'd make all the other peripherals obsolete.

That was my initial thinking as well. Sim modules are dirt cheap compared to getting the "link" implants, and don't cost essence.

In short, the only drawback seems to be that by default, running a sim module sticks you with emotive AR overlays on top of everything else.

Also, earlier you said that the simrig was the implanted counterpart of the sim module, but I don't belive that's entirely correct. If I'm reading it right, the sim module is the same thing as the ASIST Converter from SR3: the piece of hardware that was assumed to come bundled as a part of cyberdecks and sim players and high-end pocket secretaries, but that was also available as a standalone item (which was handy for otaku, because they needed it to access the Matrix). It just takes data and converts it into a simsense feed.

Simrigs on the other hand are used for converting the user's own senses into ASIST data. They can also be used to playback sim into the user's brain, but that's a secondary function.

Though now that I think about it, the sim module would have to be able to pick up at least a portion of the user's senses to be able to tell what direction they're looking in, and determine hand position if they're trying to interact with a virtual touchscreen, so I suppose that the Sim Module has limited simrig functionality as well.

QUOTE
Is there any errata on it?

Not as of the last time FanPro issued errata.
Orient
I only glanced through the gear section for this while rushing out of the door this morning. I believe there are two simlinks listed in the cyberware section - one in Headware, one in Bodyware. I figured it was a mistake, since they have different costs, but the same text description. Perhaps the headware simrig is the ASSIST/RAS override and the bodyware version is the recorder? Was there already a separate cybernetic sim-recorder listed?

I'll be able to poke through the book in a few hours..
Orient
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
In short, the only drawback seems to be that by default, running a sim module sticks you with emotive AR overlays on top of everything else.

That'd only be if the incoming feed *had* emotive tracks on it. Hm.. most ads probably would, wouldn't they. Crap.

How do we explain the RAS override, though? That hardly seems like a device that can be used with AR...
FrankTrollman
The Sim Module in Headware is a Sim Module, the Sim Rig in bodyware is a Sim Rig.

So to experience VR properly, you need a full body trode system, a datajack, or an implanted simrig.

The only advantage to having an implanted simrig over having a datajack and an external simmodule is that you can record emotive tracks without wearing a full-body trode set.

-Frank
RunnerPaul
I've mentioned it before in this thread, but I'll point it out again. The word "Simlink" does not seem to apear anywhere in the English version of the book.

As for Simrigs, those are listed in two places of the gear chapter, one is the external "trode net" style version, and the other is an implant version listed under bodyware. They're both primarily recorders, which can also do playback.

There's also an implanted Sim Module listed in headware, which is the implant equivlent to the commlink accessory. Though if you get an implanted commlink, you get a sim module for free, acording to the VR section of the matrix chapter, as Doc Byte kindly pointed out earlier in the thread.

And for AR, you just don't turn on the RAS Override. That's not anything new.
SMDVogrin
QUOTE (Orient)
I only glanced through the gear section for this while rushing out of the door this morning.  I believe there are two simlinks listed in the cyberware section - one in Headware, one in Bodyware.  I figured it was a mistake, since they have different costs, but the same text description.  Perhaps the headware simrig is the ASSIST/RAS override and the bodyware version is the recorder?  Was there already a separate cybernetic sim-recorder listed?

I'll be able to poke through the book in a few hours..

From Pg 318, Sr4:
A Sim Module "translates computer signals (simsense data) into neural signals, allowing the user to directly experience simsense programs and virtual reality." It also will "override your motor functions while you are fully immersed in VR/simsense".

A Sim Rig "records simsense experience data (both physical and emotive) from the wearer".


The Headware cyberware is a Sim Module. The Bodyware is a Sim Rig which suffers from a description typo describing it as a sim module (hopefully will be fixed in errata).
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Oct 25 2005, 10:31 PM)
"You need a sim module for your commlink to interpret the signals and feed you the data via a cyberware simrig, worn simrig, trode net, or datajack."   
   
Obviously I don't need a trode net or datajack, as the cranial commlink's already connected to the brain. But do I need an additional simrig? I don't think so, but I can't find a hint in the rules.   
   
Another strange thing: You still need a sim module plus datajack or trode net but no simrig to access full VR!


I'm beginning to understand the system. At least I think I do. The sim module's the device for translating simsense data into neural data. If you want full VR, fine. Just link your sim module to a DNI and get online. On the other hand there's AR. VR's pure mental data feed. But AR interacts with your body. (Hence the 'sense links'. ) That's the reason why you need a sim rig if you want a real physical feedback. ( Just like the control rig, I would say. )

One could say that you don't necessarily need a sim rig as there's an 'or' in the rules. Maybe there's a little bug in the rules as may interpretation seems to make sense.
Orient
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
And for AR, you just don't turn on the RAS Override. That's not anything new.

Grr. I specifically reminded myself not to use the word 'simlink', too..

In previous editions, turning off an RAS override resulted in the overlaying of complete sets of sensory information, giving a +8 TN penalty (or was it +4?) to all actions.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Orient)
In previous editions, turning off an RAS override resulted in the overlaying of complete sets of sensory information, giving a +8 TN penalty (or was it +4?) to all actions.

That's if the simsense feed in question was a complete set of sensory information to start with. Moodchip and Personafix BTLs, for example, would not typically activate the RAS Override.
Orient
It appears as though you folks are right.

Having had a chance to look through the book, I couldn't find anything that explicitly disagrees with you.
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