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Perssek
So, I am back to GMing SR, after a long, dull period of non-SR games. Thank whatever the deity, my players were so attached to their characters that they had no problem returning to their true "spirit" - specially my wife (and her goddamn street-sam razorgirl with essence 0.2).

Well, the thing is: half of the team is composed of (real-life) military fanboys, who insists on having termite and Nitroglycerin in the game. Iīve been stalling them by answering that "such old-school explosives are OUT, everybody who is somebody now goes for plastic, which is IN and doesnīt goes BOOM when you happen to have shakey hands from firing weapons in full automatic all day long."

Well, their characters have been learning chemistry so they could make their OWN nitro and termite. May the spirits frag their psycopathic souls.

Now, what stats do they have? I browsed the forums, but came out with empty hands, and in the net, my weak google-fu found only prices on those itens - not use, effects and damage codes, which I REALLY need.

Any help?
Ed_209a
Nitroglycerin is a little more powerful per weight than C4, so you probably won't be too far off by giving it the same stats as Plastic explosives.

However...

Nitro, as you mentioned, is extremely unstable.

If they made the Nitro into Dynamite (a very good idea), they will need roughly 50% more for the same effect.

Thermite does not actually explode. It just burns very hot. Treat it like a very portable cutting torch. A thermite grenade is almost certain to destroy any machinery it is placed on by burning a hole straight down through it.
fistandantilus4.0
well, IIRC there's something close to thermite in the Cannon Companion. But for nitro, just have it do around 10S, 'bout the same as a modern grenade. Of course, it's a lot less stable. So if they insist on using it, feel free to blow their hands (or whatever) off.

Also remember that in SR, there's the SOTA to ocnsider, especially in the case of armor technology, which is supposed to be ahead of weapons tech (at least with vehicles). So if you don't want them using it, rule that 'modern' armor is more effective against their old school explosives. say a +2 modifier or so?
Kagetenshi
Thermite is in the Chemistry section of Man and Machine. It kills zombie mages dead if you spread it on their face.

~J
ShadowDragon8685
I'm pretty sure it kills just about anyone dead if you spread it on their face...
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Ed_209a)
If they made the Nitro into Dynamite (a very good idea), they will need roughly 50% more for the same effect.

Indeed if they made dynamite out of it it should really count as "Commercial Explosives", 3D, -3/m.

And like Kagetenshi said, Thermite is found on pp. 114-115 of M&M. It's a bit overrated in the rules, since IRL 26.5 ounces/751g of thermate burns through an average of ―"/12.7mm of armor-grade steel in 40 seconds.
ShadowDragon8685
Maybe they made the mix more potent and just didn't bother renaming it?
Austere Emancipator
Thermate is already a more potent "mix" thermite, with added barium nitrate, aluminum and bonding agents. Apart from stuff that's already done to increase the burning efficiency of that (adding ferrocene and magnesium or zinc), there's precious little you can do with the basic principle of thermite -- the newest stuff only consists of 25% thermite, changing the mix any more would result in there being nothing left of the basic "Ferrous Oxide + Aluminum" formula.
Ed_209a
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
since IRL 26.5 ounces/751g of thermate burns through an average of ―"/12.7mm of armor-grade steel in 40 seconds.

Hmm...

In that case, I retract what I said about thermite being like a very portable cutting torch.

Perhaps a very portable, very slow cutting torch.
Arethusa
Don't expect a cutting torch to go through armor grade steel very easily. Thermite is not incredibly fast, but it's not that slow, either, and it is enourmously applicable.
Austere Emancipator
When pressed against an object and the heat concentrated on a small area (as in thermite/thermate burning bars) it might do a bit better. It will certainly burn through a few millimeters of ordinary steel near-instantaneously. It's definitely not an anti-armor weapon, though, and will not "eat its way" into metal very well under its own weight.
ShadowDragon8685
Still, you can quite handily ruin artilliary by jamming a few of the buggers up there good.
Straight Razor
thermite is plenty hot. it has the heat to melt/burn most things. what makes it slow is the fact the heat goes up. and the top of the pile(not in contact with the target) burns first.
Fix-it
It'd still be easy to knock out even a tank with a well placed thermite grenade. There are plenty of vulnerable spots within reach (Treads, hatches, blow-out panels, farking up the inside of the main gun)
Perssek
Thanks, guys - I donīt have Man&Machine (I play strictly 2nd Edition), but I think a friend of mine does - gonna ask him about the thermite. Also thanks on the tips about Nitro - gotta make sure somebody loses a few fingers if their sucesses donīt amount up to the task (and maybe some other limbs, too - not to mention near buildings).

You know, thatīs something I like about the forums - EVERYBODY is always eager to help a buddy GM to frag the life of their players.

Now, letīs make up a table of critical failures while dealing with nitro and thermite...
Ed_209a
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Don't expect a cutting torch to go through armor grade steel very easily. Thermite is not incredibly fast, but it's not that slow, either, and it is enourmously applicable.

Certainly not like scissors through paper, but I have watched a guy first hand cut 3/8 inch armor steel, and the initial blow-through took perhaps 10-15 sec. From then, he was cutting 1" every 2-3 sec.

And oh yeah, I am not underestimating the usefulness of putting a hole in armor steel _at all_, quickly, without having to lug around 200+ lbs of gas bottles and associated equipment. I just thought Thermite/ate worked a little faster than it does.
Ed_209a
QUOTE (Perssek)
Now, letīs make up a table of critical failures while dealing with nitro and thermite...

Simple.

Think of nitroglycerine like soda. Anything happens that would make the soda go all fizzy, the nitro has a good chance of exploding.

...And wackiness ensues.

This is why soaking the nitro into something like sawdust or maybe even flour (dynamite) is such a good idea. Dynamite will take all kinds of abuse before blowing up.

But, if they are not willing to... their loss, Doc Wagon's gain.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Fix-it)
There are plenty of vulnerable spots within reach (Treads, hatches, blow-out panels, farking up the inside of the main gun)

You could definitely ruin the main gun and the optics, you could seal the hatches, and if the MBT is immobile (which it obviously is if we're able to liberally apply burning agent on it with grenades or other muscle-powered "weapon systems") you could probably permanently immobilize it by fuzing the tracks. You might be able to shut down the engine if it's running, but, depending on design, it would probably be able to start up again later.

That's with current RL MBTs, of course.
nick012000
On the subject of thermite, while it might not be able to burn through tanks all that well, it can apparently melt holes through concrete and dirt fairly well, according to a friend of mine who made some and melted a hole through his neighbor's driveway (and several feet of dirt underneath it).
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (nick012000)
[...] melt holes through concrete and dirt [...]

I fear your friend might have been lying to you. Being prone to melting is not an attribute possessed by either concrete or dirt.
ShadowDragon8685
If his friend's neighbor's driveway was made of blacktop, and nick attributed it to being concrete when in fact it was blacktop, it is entirely possible - I daresay even the only inevitable eventuality - if real thermite were set upon the surface. Blacktop can become gooey and malleable and prone to pulling away in even the summer sun - ask any schoolyard boy. Thermite? Turn it to a liquid with particles of aggregate in no time. It's basically tar liberally mixed with aggregate rock.
Austere Emancipator
You could melt away whatever is bonding the variety of asphalt-ish substance is covering a driveway or road, yes. Molten tar-like stuffs aren't all that liquid, however, and are not very likely to dig a hole for the thermite or spontaneously move away from under it. It would most likely cause a significant, and odd-looking, depression in the driveway though.

[Edit]Apparently, you can use thermite to cut concrete, but that requires a specialized oxygen/thermite jet which generates temperatures up to around 9000 C/16000 F. The concrete decomposes at these temperatures, and the pressure and mass flow blow the debris away. Not a very useful shadowrunning application.[/Edit]
hobgoblin
i would guess that the tar, if heated enough, would go into a gas state, leaving only the rocks its bonding together. dont know if thermite can produce that level of heat tho...
Austere Emancipator
I would wager that at temperatures where tar or bitumen can be completely turned gaseous from the state they appear on roads in in less than a minute, the rocks would, in fact, no longer be there. And to achieve that effect, you want to go to the opposite end of the NBC weapons arsenal. wink.gif
hobgoblin
maybe so. err, maybe i was aiming for liquid rather then gas. anyways, it may well have some effect on the materials. and if its thin enough a layer (and it most likely is if the person paying for it is a bit cheap) then having the effect described may well happen. we dont realy know the amount of thermite used, not the thickness of the material it supposedly burned thru.
Foreigner
Ever hear of Astrolite, folks?

It's a mixture of anhydrous hydrazine (a rocket fuel) and ammonium nitrate (a common fertilizer). It was accidentally developed during the V-2 tests of the late 1940s and early 1950s. It seems that the scientists realized that they might have something with--ahem!--"other useful applications" when the rockets kept exploding on the launching pad.

eek.gif

The stuff is roughly three times as potent as 60% gelatin dynamite (bear in mind that regular commercial dynamite is only 20% nitroglycerin by weight).

It was used by the U.S. Army's Studies and Observations Group (SOG), a special-ops group (that didn't officially exist) during the Vietnam War.

One of their specialties was the "liquid land mine"--bury a (pressure-sensitive) detonator, then pour the premixed explosive on top of it.

The end result appears to be merely a damp patch of ground--until it goes off, that is.

There's a nastier version--"Astrolite A-1-5"--which is almost the same mixture, but has aluminum powder in it, as well as the other chemicals. It's about 20% more potent than its cousin.

The idea is that the chemicals would be carried separately, and only mixed when needed although, IIRC, the mixed explosive was more stable than nitroglycerin.

--Foreigner
SMDVogrin
QUOTE (Foreigner)
IIRC, the mixed explosive was more stable than nitroglycerin.

This does not strike me as a particularly high standard. smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Foreigner)
The stuff is roughly three times as potent as 60% gelatin dynamite (bear in mind that regular commercial dynamite is only 20% nitroglycerin by weight).

By weight, depending on how you're measuring (pressure or impulse generated, burn speed, etc.), that might be close. Problem is, Astrolite is not very dense, so to get the pressure and impulse equivalent to TNT, you actually need a much greater volume. The lack of density also makes efficient detonations rather unlikely. (60% weight strength blasting gelatin has a TNT equivalent weight for pressure of less than 0.7x, C-4 has 1.37x.) If that wasn't enough, hydrazine, which is a major component, is highly toxic and corrosive, and not something you can easily get at.

Astrolite is way overhyped. It's like the ".22 bounces around in your skull/ribcage" thing.

QUOTE (SMDVogrin)
This does not strike me as a particularly high standard. smile.gif

That's because Astrolite is so volatile it can't really be compared to anything else. wink.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Foreigner)
Ever hear of Astrolite, folks?

Yes. Ever hear of what you need to do to make the stuff?

Astrolite's pretty stable, IIRC. That being after you get it mixed up, of course.

~J
Foreigner
A.E., Kagetenshi:

Thanks for the updated info.

I had a book about how to make that stuff once upon a time, but I threw it away. My brother was just about to start a government job, and we both agreed that my possession of such reading material could possibly be detrimental to his job prospects--even though the only reason that I'd bought it was that I thought the information might be useful in roleplaying games. biggrin.gif

Most of what I cited in my earlier post was from memory, and, as I've previously stated, my memory isn't very good.

I mentioned it only because I thought some of you might find the concept of the "liquid land mine" useful.

--Foreigner
John Campbell
I've set asphalt on fire using thermite. It smoldered for a little while before going out. Of course, it was pouring rain at the time... I'm not sure how well it would've burned if it had been dry.
Arethusa
When the government does background checks and investigations for high clearance positions, they do not break into your house and read your books.
Foreigner
QUOTE (Arethusa)
When the government does background checks and investigations for high clearance positions, they do not break into your house and read your books.

Arethusa:

I know that *NOW*, but I didn't *THEN*.

Besides, the arguments to the contrary presented by my parents and my brother were *QUITE* persuasive.

--Foreigner
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Oct 30 2005, 01:27 PM)
When the government does background checks and investigations for high clearance positions, they do not break into your house and read your books.

Exactly. They just get the records from your credit card companies, local book stores, and public libraries. It is far more efficient that way. Throwing the book away won't help because there will be a record of the purchase.

Of course, for real explosive fun you only need 9 million pounds of ammonium perchlorate sitting in open plastic containers. Add a spark and yould get at least one explosion that is equivilant to a 3.6 earthquake.
ShadowDragon8685
Excepting Aztechnology, who's that dumb as to leave nine million pounds of it just laying around somewhere dangerous?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Excepting Aztechnology, who's that dumb as to leave nine million pounds of it just laying around somewhere dangerous?
ShadowDragon8685
Ah, I see.


So, Aztechnology was formerly Pepcon? smile.gif
Kagetenshi
Sorry to disappoint you, but stupidity is rampant. Moreover, it is not something that Aztechnology engages in regularly—you don't become #2 in the world with such great PR that no one can make bad publicity stick to you by being stupid.

Based on their experiments with bugs, I'd peg that as more of an Ares stunt.

~J
Perssek
QUOTE (Ed 209a)
Think of nitroglycerine like soda. Anything happens that would make the soda go all fizzy, the nitro has a good chance of exploding.


Hey, Ed, my man, itīs practically a canon rule right now - my first player lost his hand dealing with nitro without taking the appropriate care.

To enforce that, I bought a soda bottle (small, 120ml, almost the size and shape of a grenade), and when the characters are dealing with nitro, the players are dealing with the soda bottle. They pass it around, hop a little carrying it, try to throw. If I open the bottle and it not only fizzles, but blows out - itīs boom time.

They kinda like it. Although there was some complaining about the characters being more agile and coordinate and careful then the players could ever be, we agreed on modifiers based on the degree of "fizziness" on the bottle. And we have usually 3 or 4 bottles, because it looses gas fast! (too small).
Velocity
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Of course, for real explosive fun you only need 9 million pounds of ammonium perchlorate sitting in open plastic containers. Add a spark and yould get at least one explosion that is equivilant to a 3.6 earthquake.

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Excepting Aztechnology, who's that dumb as to leave nine million pounds of it just laying around somewhere dangerous?

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
PEPCON

rotfl.gif That read like a skit...
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