i was playing around designing a riger today, and i thought about how he could build a mech.
I cybered out a horse for a ride once, but this is a bit more complicated. anyone ever tackled building a mech in sr3 before?

As opposite to coolness, Mechs are not really usefull and it's kind of a silly idea.

Why building a biped unstable mech when you can drive a really stable tank/hovercraft?

The mechs are only cool in anime. They are not really practical weapon platforms. They tend to be really fragile because of their limbs. They have too much vulnerable points.

I do seem to vaguely recall people might have been trying to do this once or twice.

I would try and find all the threads discussing about mecha or powered suits and such. But, I really don't feel like bothering. (plus, when searching for mecha, it gets confused with mechanics, ugh.)

It can be done with regards to power-assisted armor, but I've never tried for anything over troll-sized.
Why?

Well, like it's been said... Powered armor, pretty useful. True mech? Pretty not.

I sketched out a Dreadnought a while back (R3R rules), a large anthro-form drone with a rigger inside it, a high-strength arm and an autocannon (or maybe it was a mini-gun, I can't remember). Sort of the same thing, but on a slightly smaller scale. It probably would have ended up just about the height of a tall troll, but much broader.

from a corperate perspective, a mech would get killer ratings in desert wars, if it worked. and someone would have a mech-vs-mech arena combat trid show. demographics would be a cross between battlebots and monster trucks.

humanoid mechs may have problems, but if you go with multiple (6 or legs, you can get a lot more stability.

For anyone too lazy to search the old threads, one good starting point would be the hard-shelled JIM-suit exoskeletons described in the various sourcebooks that have rules for SCUBA diving.

Actually, smaller mecha could be usefull for law enforcement. The superior mobility allows it to go places that patrol cars can't and unless you come up against criminals using anti-vehicular weapons the armor should hold.

Also, compare the excessive property destruction caused by Patlabor's Special Vehicle Units to the excessive property damage caused by Dominion's Tank Police.
From a purely economical point of view, the mecha are better than tanks since they'll produce fewer unwinnable lawsuits.

Their use in law enforcement is marginal. Situations where law enforcement need genuine heavy armor or even the light, mobile, urban armor are incredibly rare.

Military applications, however, are immense. They won't replace tanks, certainly, because that platform is much more efficient at supporting an armored gun platform— on open terrain, at least. However, over uneven terrain or in urban combat environments, there is substantial impetus to modify the traditional design of the tank to something more agile. Moreover, smaller, bipedal armor offers substantial advantages in urban warfare in supporting squads, carrying heavy antiarmor or suppression weapons. For examples of the potential of both, see GitS, which remains basically the only intelligently thought out cyberpunk out there.

I don't see how this isn't feasible.Iin fact i can't believe they haven't detailed construction exoskeletons, powered space suits, and rescue suits. Many of the designing problems gyrobalancing a bipedal robot are pointless if the rigger has to be inside. What better to balance a unit then the human ear? Weapon system wise a mecha suit would be barely capable against vehicles, but wreak havoc on infantry. With electric motors the speed will be bearable and load low enough players won't go nuts.

BTW the best thing about mecha armor is that it can do one thing tanks can't. Pick up weapons and use them.

Or, alternately, you could just suck it up and play another game.

And, truthfully, some folks are wanting to market the powered armor stuff to fire departments. Allow the firemen to walk into a burning building without worrying about that pesky oxygen or heat thing.

Powered armor is, unquestionably, the way of the future. It allows troops to carry more weight and more gear, plus pack in more safety and comm equipment, so on and so forth. If one power suit costs as much as one normal troop (hence, a troop in a power suit costs as much as two normal troops), it will still likely be economical for most shock troops.

Mechs, however, not so much. The basic problem is just having legs is less efficient power-wise, less stable, more difficult to repair and maintain, more likely to cause catastrophic damage in a crash, pricier and more vulnerable to attack than your standard tank. There ARE certain very specific uses for a mech that tanks and helicopters won't be able to fill as well, such as long range, semi-permanent firing platform meant to get to difficult positions. In general though, four or six legs will be much better than two, and you certainly won't have something quite like mechwarrior (again, a tank, helicopter or jet for the same price could devestate a mech.)

The problems with helicoptors, though, can be easily fixed with T-birds and hover-drones. (Both vector-thrust and rotor-powered hover-drones.)

Actually, i think 6, legs would be the bare minimum, unless your 4 legged model is atleast tripple jointed for variable angles to push off with, i think is the bare minimum. a doulbe joint (hip and knee setup) just isn't enough for dealing with LARGE piles of rubble.

They are also useful in rescue opperations where it would be dificult or impossible to bring in more standard equipment. Mechs with lifting arms could be used to move debris from a collapsed building, for example.

In 2060's, we have got VTOL vehicules... So debris pile are not really an issue...

A mecha to look at are the ones from the Heavy Gear game. They top off around 10-15 feet. They have legs, and also secondary movement systems that allow them to move faster on roads and such.
That game also has tanks, multi-legged units, and other stuff. The advantage in the game for gears is the ability to bring heavier firewpower and ability to cross rough terrain. Even climbing up sheer surfaces, they have ones specialized for mountain combat. Anyway, they're not invinicible, there's even anti-gear rifles (something like the big .50 rifle).
Anyway, while that's nifty and fun, it's mainly power armour that I see being more feasible. aye, if you can package a soldier to carry more equipment, armour, and move faster than a normal soldier could. The advantage would be increased abilities in a small package.
The problem with a battlemech... how can you not see that thing and have everyone fire your rpg's at it. How many can it take before going down, and it costs how much to build one?!

Actually, RPGs pose very little threat to a Battlemech, even massed fire of them. The problem is that RPGs are also what the 'mechs load as missiles - go figure.

RPG fire is very little threat to a true armored unit today. It's jets and other armored units that are a threat.

And as for feasability, in SR, the tech to make a reasonably working Power suit or mech is the same tech used to make decently working cybernetic limbs. If they can make a replacement cyberleg that works as good or better than the origional, then making legs for vehicles is feasable as well. The only question is not is it possible, but Why do it? Its a mindset thing. In a world where people are willing to get their limbs cut off to get robotic replacements, the demand for power armor might be a bit lower. After all, it's bulky, it requires getting used to, you can't stay in it forever, and almost every benifit can be gained though implant technology. On a larger scale, mecha will always be outclassed by more specialized vehicles on a planet. The only place large scale mecha makes any sense is in space, where it serves basically as an oversized spacesuit. The arms would be hella useful, and no matter what shape your ship is it will use rockets for thrust. You'd have to really justify the legs, though, and the only way I could see it is for use in boarding ships/stations. So if you want your anime-ish mecha, look up top the gravity well.

Unless, of course, you discover a special material on Mars or something, that has the incredible properties of being able to store and release energy however it wishes. Then you get machines like this one, that perform the same in a gravity well or out of it, and that performance is universally "overwhelmingly awesome."

A good source for some smaller suits of course is Heavy Gear but there's also some great old school stuff in Bubblegum Crisis, the Animatrix, and many many many others. Cyberpunk 2020 Maximum Metal had a nice system for full conversion Borgs as well as Powerarmor. The idea being you want to be small enough to hide and evade choppers and other vehicles. Big enough to stop small arms fire so you can take out tanks and infanry implacements quickly and cleanly. If you run out of ammo, being able to pry open the turret hatch is also a good way to disable a tank. It's a cool idea if you can meet the power concerns. For lighter armored suits I would look at Starship troopers desktop minis game. They have light armormed suits that can jump and hop. Power armor is a great way to utilize space assets. Having armor in a vaccum is a great idea incase some nasty little particle or bit decides to impact your suit. At least with armor you have a chance. With a modern space suit your spam in a can depending on the size of the particle.

I'm guessing they're going to be different classes of armor.
Class A: Powered Moble Armor, no extra lifting power, but you don't have penalties for armor.
Class B: Industrial Powered suits for Heavy lifting and constuction. Essentially large powered exoskeletons.
Class C: Powered Armored Exoskeltons. Used in a variety of tonnages from light, medium to heavy for recon, armored assualt, and anti-infantry duties. Powered suits where the pilot is encased in armor and has access to large scale firearms, advanced sensor arrays, and increased mobility and speed. Light armored versions may have jump jet capabilities or attachable turbofan props for air dropped placement.

I remember as a kid watching Transformers that Megatron would magically shrink into a gun and Star Scream would fire him with an enourmous amount of energy......Thus Megatron = "DA MAN"!

I always thought Sound wave was the coolest of all the Transformers.....

Don't forget the Mech's worst enemy is a powered armrored Elemental....IE Mechs can be boarded.

The Mech's most feared enemy from days of old: Galleon 5 ton hover tank....Take 100 tons in those (20 tanks) and you've got an unstopable wave of tanks. 20 Medium Lasers can really ruin a mech's day, especially when it's from the rear.

I think you have the wrong name for the 5 ton hovertank.
Off the top of my mind, isn't the Galleon a tracked tank?

You're thinking of the Savannah Master.

edit: And just for y'all to understand, I'm not bashing battletech, hell, I memorized my battlemechs. I memorized their ID numbers, their weight, speed, and various weapons configuration for their variants. I also know of a lot of the tanks. What I didn't memorize was the fighters or warships. And yes, I even played the 3056 MUSH. So, I'm not some guy who doesn't know his battletech stuff.

second edit: Bah, Elementals and Clan (Clammers). I'm more for the Inner Sphere, old school when possible. Free Rasalhague Republic, All the Way!

NO NO NO. Time for the engineering lesson.

Simply put, designs with less moving parts are better. They are simpler. They have less that can go wrong. Every moving part multiplies the amount of ways a device can break. So the simplest machine will, in the end, be themost reliable. This applies to maintainence as well as damage.

It doesn't matter how awesome a machine is when it works, if it spends 90% of the time not working.

Any material advance that would make giant robo possible, is also applicable to other areas. There is nothing saying the technology that makes your 'orbital frames" or whatever can only be applied to a vehicle with a humaniod shape. you could just as easily make a Tank out of the same technology, and it would be a better war machine because it is a simpler design with less moving parts.

And the idea that kenetic energy from a sword is somehow different from the kenetic energy from a projectile is just plain wrong.

Platonic Pimp, time for your Anime Engineering Lesson.

Lesson 1:
Nothing ever breaks unless it's plot-important, or it's taken enough damage to blow it to shit.

Colliary to #1: Orbital Frames of second-generation and beyond are equipped with "Self-Supporting Armor." Essentially, this is a mobile nanoplant that repairs them on-the-fly. Essentially, OFs have Regeneration that they can employ as-needed (though it takes thier attention to do, and thus they must slow down and cannot attack while doing it.)

Lesson 2:
Despite moving and being shaped like a human, Orbital Frames' internal construction is very light on the moving parts. As in, you have more moving parts in a tank made out of the same material than you do in a frame.

Lesson 3:
A tank made out of Metatron would be an inferoir war machine. It's only real ability to damage a real Orbital Frame would be from ramming the Frame, as a tank will lack a melee weapon. To counter this, all the Frame needs to do is grab the tank as it charges, and summarily fling it into a wall, or prepare a ready strike with it's own melee weapon to knock the frame away.

Lesson 4:
It is when the kinetic energy from the sword is because the SWORD ITSELF is made out of Metatron. Metatron is such a rare material that using it as a projectile - an inherantly disposable object - is financial suicide.

To put that in perspective, imagine the cost of a naval missile. 250,000 . Now make it out of pure orichilum. The price just jumped to about 80,000,000 .
So, are you going to make an 80,000,000 sword, or 5,000 80,000,000 projectiles? Remember, any shot that misses is a wasted shot, and that Orbital Frames have a multitudinal of ways to prevent themselves from being hit - they can employ their shields which make them nigh-invunerable at the expense of (in most cases) being unable to attack while shielded. They can dodge (something they are incredibly capable of doing.) They can parry.

I would argue that a tank equipped with a ZOE2 Homing Missile launcher and a power source equivalent Naked Jehuty's would be a great threat to an army of orbitial frames.

Homing missiles are apparently generated on the fly, so a mobile missile battery with Naked Jehuty's power supply would have effectively unlimited ammunition and homing missiles are devastating even against the most powerful orbital frames.

Riiiiight. See, I thougth we were talking about mecha is Shadowrun. Well, We'll play your game.

Lesson 1: Stuff breaking in a fight from damage is always plot important. Besides, if malfunction only occurs when plot required, why fight at all? you'll only actually succeed at anything if the plot requires it.

Colliary to #1: Tanks have the same nano-repair unit, but since tehy break less often, they are out of commision less.

Lesson 2: The Idea that a humaniod frame has less moving parts than a metal box on wheels is patently rediculous. What, do the arms and legs have no Joints? A antigrav tank has even less, since it has no wheels. Lets see, moving parts: turret, and.... the other turret?

Lesson 3: This really requires the answer to nuber 4, because your three is based onteh conclusionto your 4, that a melee weapon is superior. If it isn't then we have no problem.
Plus, don't discount ramming. Without any friction, our speed is limited only by our propellant and C. I'm sure we can speed at the unit with enough velocity they can't react in time to grab us.
And who says you need arms for a melee weapon? Front mounted buzzsaws, baybee.

Lesson 4: Well, assuming you can make the melee weapon strong enough to survive the impact, we could make a projecile strong enough to penatrate while retaining it's basic shape. After the battle, we salvage it. and cast more shells from the armor of our fallen enemies. and their melee weapons. Because, since we used projectiles capable of peircing heir armor, and they used melee weapons for some strange reason, we won the battle.

Now, I loves me the anime style giant robots. I even have run several campaigns with them. But you have to lie, lie LIE to justify them, because really, the are always outclassed by simpler machines or infantry.

I think this discussion needs a lot more smileys, so I don't accidentally think ShadowDragon8685 is being serious, and consequently go through a meltdown of the brain.

The engineer in me cringes whenever I read the stuff about the anime engineering physics. The law student in me cringes at a host of other issues... like going into space with anime-level weaponry that's on par with nuclear weaponry...

Humanoid mecha do have one advantage over tanks in outerspace, the ability to control their rotational velocity without burning propellant by exploiting Newton's Third Law of motion. By moving their limbs with precision, they can precisely maintain or change their rotational velocity, although their is a limit on the rotational acceleration that can be achieved without burning propellant this greatly cuts down on the fuel expenditure and thus allows the mech to operate for longer periods with the same propellant or to operate for the same period with less propellant.

I also play the game Jovian Chronicles. My fav unit is the Syreen, which dispenses with the legs but is of a humanoid design. Yes, I know about the rotational velocity and advantages. This game covers that between the 'linear frames' (mechs) and the space fighters.

Heavily, heavily influenced by Gundam.

Kryton - He's talking about meTatron, not meGatron. Metatron makes magical energy out of secret martian rock and therefore makes no sense and sucks. Megatron is clearly superior to any sort of tank because he turns into a big truck and therefore rocks.


In general, I think the rule is this:
If you think mechs have limited use but might exist, there are some rules thrown around here. Also feel free to look at the sources already named for inspiration. But keep in mind, they will be pricey and relatively useless in combat.

If you think mechs are super cool because they have swords and tanks don't, you're playing the wrong game. There are games that are much better suited for mech to mech combat.

Um, Megatron dosn't turn into a truck. The original G1 Megatron turned into a Walther P-38. Despite the fact that Megatron is an absurdly massive giant robot, a normal human can wield his pistol form. He also has a rifle form which is large enough for another Transformer to wield.

In later incarnations, Megatron was a tank or a jet. Beast Wars Megatron was first a tyranosaur and then a dragon. RiD Megatron had multiple forms including a race car, a jet, a dragon, a bat, and a giant claw.

Optimus Prime turned into a semi.

The two are very different. Optimus Prime is the leader of the Autobots, the so called good guys. Megatron is the leader of the Decepticons, the oft maligned bad guys.

What made Megatron cool is the location of his trigger. In the cartoon, Megatron's trigger isn't visible in robot mode. On the toy, however, there is no place to hide it. It just sticks out from his crotch. This, of course, leads to a great deal of unintentional sexual innuendo when he turns into a rifle and has Starscream pull his trigger.