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Feshy
Even a practically untrained rigger seems capable of amazing feats of piloting, due to the bonuses available. Specifically:

Rigging via Hot-Sim (p. 229)
QUOTE

receive an
exceptional +2 dice pool bonus to all Matrix tests while in hot sim
mode, due to your hypersensitized state.

"Matrix tests" isn't defined; but drone and rigging actions are defined under the "Wireless World" section. Thus, the +2 dice likely applies.

+2 dice available for having a Control Rig (p. 331)

And, lastly, a -1 threshold modifier to all Vehicle Tests while in VR (p 159).

Toss the rigger in question behind the wheel of a sports car for an additional +3 dice to handling tests.

Thus, an "average joe" (Reaction 3) with "low insurance premiums" (Groundcraft 1)
Tosses out 11 dice, with a -1 threshold to Vehicle Tests. Statistically, that's like looking at 14 dice.

I guess I don't really have any complaints with this; after all technology that lets you be the car is bound to influence your abilities substantially. I was just surprised at how many "free" dice are available for rigging.
NightRain
Matrix actions are defined. They're in the table on page 219. You'll note vehicle tests are not on that list, so the +2 dice hot sim bonus does not apply. Control device is on that list, but that's only used when they aren't "jumped in", in which case the control rig doesn't apply. The extra initiative pass for hot sim does apply though

That means that a rigger has a -1 to thresholds and +2 dice if they have a control rig.

Lindt
The VCR was fairly compairable, with the control pool, bonus to all tests, init bonus, reduction of defaulting penelties...

Feshy
QUOTE (Lindt)
The VCR was fairly compairable, with the control pool, bonus to all tests, init bonus, reduction of defaulting penelties...

The original VCR was also considerably costlier essence-wise and resource-wise.

The VCR was so powerful in SR3, though, that anyone driving without one was just eaten alive by anyone with one. In SR4, many of the benefits of Virtual Reality control are provided to anyone with a commlink, hot-sim, and 'trodes -- which is to say, nearly every runner. This means that having a dedicated rigger character isn't an absolute necessity in SR4.
Eyeless Blond
Well it kinda is. But, just like a dedicated hacker in SR4, the rigger's skills are more important than his 'ware and gear (well to a certain extent). A rigger needs a nice loadout of vehicle skills, for instance, plus the drones and such that are the hallmark of his profession. He needs most of the Electronics skill group, should probably invest in a few good signal repeaters so he doesn't have to rely on the Matrix to run his drone network, etc etc.

Riggers still have their place; it's just a place that intersects alot more with the decker than before.
Rifleman
When you think about how the VR is designed to make the vehicle feel like an extention of yourself, it's bonuses are not quite so outrageous even if looking at it from the basic numerical perspective is somewhat scary.

On the other note, a proper rigger with all the skills and gear is without a doubt useful but not as nessesary as they were in previous editions due to the over runs elsewhere in the system.
Xeros
I'm still trying to figure out when you actually roll the command program.
Rifleman
QUOTE ( SR4 pg. 220)
At the gamemaster’s discretion, some control tasks may be simple enough that no test is necessary, such as opening a locked door. Some tasks may require an appropriate skill to be used—controlling a repair drone to remotely fix a car, for example, may call for a Mechanic + Command Test.Remotely controlling a drone would take a Command + vehicle skill Test, and so on.

Note that remotely controlling a drone in this matter is different from rigging a drone (requiring you to “jump into” the drone with full VR and “become” the drone) or issuing commands to a drone (in which case it acts on its own accord).


It's a page earlier than where they say to look for it.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Feshy)
The VCR was so powerful in SR3, though, that anyone driving without one was just eaten alive by anyone with one.  In SR4, many of the benefits of Virtual Reality control are provided to anyone with a commlink, hot-sim, and 'trodes -- which is to say, nearly every runner.  This means that having a dedicated rigger character isn't an absolute necessity in SR4.

Especially since in SR4 all the various Reaction Enhancements and the methods for getting extra init passes do still apply when in control of a vehicle. Under previous editions, if you weren't rigged, you didn't get the effect of your reaction/init boosts, so this is a big change and goes a long way to leveling the track.
Feshy
QUOTE
Remotely controlling a drone would take a Command + vehicle skill Test, and so on.


Does that mean you basically substitute reaction for your Command program rating if using Remote Control? That's kind of interesting, especially as you can use remote control from Hot-Sim VR, and get +2 dice to it (as it is on the list on page 219). You don't get the -1 threshold (about 3 dice worth) you get for being jumped in, but you also don't risk taking damage when the drone does. You also won't get the control rig bonus, if you actually have a control rig.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Feshy)
That's kind of interesting, especially as you can use remote control from Hot-Sim VR, and get +2 dice to it (as it is on the list on page 219). You don't get the -1 threshold (about 3 dice worth) you get for being jumped in, but you also don't risk taking damage when the drone does. You also won't get the control rig bonus, if you actually have a control rig.

Keep in mind that when using the command program to issue commands to your drone, the drone acts on its own, independent initative. If the drone gets a better init score than the rigger, and it doesn't currently have a command to act on, it'll have to delay its action until the rigger's phase, when the rigger can issue a new command. If the rigger gets a better init score than the drone, the rigger will issue a command on his phase, but then will have to wait for the drone's phase to see the command acted upon.

As an aside, you mention that a -1 threshold is worth about 3 dice. This is very true when looking at it from the law of averages, but there's another way of looking at it as well: If you're spending dice to buy automatic hits, -1 threshold is worth the 4 dice you'd have to spend to get 1 automatic hit.
Rotbart van Dainig
Not quite - Remote Control is different from Issuing Orders, too.

Remote Control is possible for any wifi-enabled device, and is always a complex action, happening on the initative of the controller - like piloting an RC Car.
Xeros
Ahhh....*that*'s what command is for. It's effectively your attribute when jumped in. No effect when just giving commands to a drone though....I think.
Gothic Rose
It only makes sense for Riggers to get bonuses from lots of places, because they're such skill whores.

I mean, HOW many vehicle skills are there? Plus you need a lot of the electronics group, and all the building skills, and gunnery, and so on so forth. They need the help.
Liper
You don't need a building skill at all, get a friend for life mechanic contact = )
SMDVogrin
QUOTE (Xeros)
Ahhh....*that*'s what command is for. It's effectively your attribute when jumped in. No effect when just giving commands to a drone though....I think.

No. You use your own attributes when "jumped in".

However, you can remotely control a vehicle without jumping in (using AR rather than Full VR). THEN you use Command + Skill.

Controlling Devices, pg 220.
Serbitar
Sothere are 3 control categories:

- VR jump in (reaction + skill, -1 treshold)
- AR control (command + skill)
- just telling the drone and letting it do the job (pilot + autosoft)
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Gothic Rose @ Nov 4 2005, 11:33 AM)
It only makes sense for Riggers to get bonuses from lots of places, because they're such skill whores.

I mean, HOW many vehicle skills are there?  Plus you need a lot of the electronics group, and all the building skills, and gunnery, and so on so forth.  They need the help.

Agreed, especially now that your VCR doesn't essentially let you default to (augmented) Reaction for free and throw more dice at a lower TN than meatspace drivers who *had* the right skill, like you did in SR3.
SMDVogrin
Another rigger question:
A device can not run more programs than it's system rating without taking a penalty to response. Do Autosofts count toward this limit? If I have a standard drone with Device rating 3, does running 4 autosofts on it cause it's response rating (and thus it's pilot rating) to drop?
RunnerPaul
If I had to take a stab at it, I'd say that autosofts are intended to be treated differently than programs (which is why they rate their own label). Autosofts don't count against the system rating of a drone any more than skillsofts loaded into your skillwires from where you've stored them on your implanted commlink count against your commlink's device rating.

Of course, I've already been wrong once in this thread, and I might be wrong again.
Rotbart van Dainig
Autosofts are programs indeed, but since Pilot is System, too, it would cause the recursive crash - just reduce response, thats already annoying, since initative and understanding orders depend on that, too.
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