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jervinator
One thing I don't get is why all cyberlimbs have Body, Strength, and Agility stats of 3 and require a cybertorso to exceed 6.
Okay, Agility I can see staying at a base of 3 because all use about the same control software and everything. Metahumans are similar enough in their central nervous systems that a company could standardize somewhat and equip all cyberlimbs with the same feedback and sophistication to function the same as a person with Agility 3 though some may argue that Elves should be allowed to get 4 points of Agility enhancement.
My beef is that the average Troll has a Strength and Body of 7. That means that a troll that loses an arm will either have to get a cybertorso or settle for a weak arm. Either way, it'll cost a lot of money to enhance the arm all the way to be equal with the natural arm it is replacing; more if you require the cybertorso.

I feel that different metatypes should have different base stats for their cyberlimbs, though they should cost a little more too.

Dwarf : Body 4, Strength 5, Agility 3 - it's thicker and has more room for "muscles"; +770 nuyen.gif
Elf : Body 3, Strength 3, Agility 4 - more advanced "nerves" to accomodate the superior Elven agility; +300 nuyen.gif
Ork : Body 6, Strength 5, Agility 3 - As a Dwarf, only more so; +1200 nuyen.gif
Troll : Body 7, Strength 7, Agility 2 - It's big, has lots of material, and much room for "muscles". However, it is also a bit heavier and, of course, bigger so fine motor control is an issue.; +1700 nuyen.gif

If you do it this way, you can keep the maximum enhancement without a cybertorso at 3 points without unduly penalizing the metahumans. The nuyen cost reflects both the added cost of the stat boosts inherent to the limbs plus a little extra for game balance.
Xeros
It makes sense to me. Evo specializes in a lot of products that metahuman customized, it would surprise me that limbs are not made more race specific. The limit of 6 without a torso may still be more universal however. You are looking at issues of the tissue where the limb meets the body hitting unusual strain. The strength of the limb is not the issue, but the pressure applied to the join.
BlackHat
What stops a human from ordering an elven cyberarm under these rules?
It might look a little disproportionate, but their arms are roughly the same size - and there isn't enough of a difference in their anatomy to argue that you can't wire one to the other (After all, standard cyberarms can be put onto eitehr race).

Sure, they have to pay nuyen.gif 300 more to have it, but the agility cap is effectivly raised by one.
Teulisch
well, having more powerfull troll arms is a must. those things are huge. and a human-scale arm can only reach troll unaugmented max of 10. you need a base of 8 body/strength in order to reach the augmented max, so a base 7 would be quite reasonable.

elves do not need better cyberlimbs, as the standard variety can match the augmented max of an elf (unless he has exceptional agility). the same goes for a dwarfs body.

Orks do need something a little stronger, and they are bigger than a human.

Now a human could get an ork arm, but its going to be oversized on most (may fit a body 6 human), which would cause problems. nobody but a troll can get a troll arm, due to size.

in SR3, cyberlimbs did not have a seperate body (instead they gave +body). you had 4 strength for humans/elves, 6 for orks/dwarves, and 8 for trolls. the limbs were above average. Now in SR4, we see SR 3 capacities made to hold 50% more atribute upgrades. and everyone gets a base 3, weaker than before. If anything, i would say cyberlimbs got WORSE as technology advanced.
Xeros
QUOTE (BlackHat)
What stops a human from ordering an elven cyberarm under these rules?

Nothing...might make sense for an elf poser.

Heck, a human could mount a troll arm, though there should be rules for what it does to your balance, and the reinforcement it would need.
jervinator
Xeros - Are you telling me that a Strength 9 Troll with a Strength 7 cyberarm is placing more pressure on his joints with that cyberarm than with the meat limb?

And yes, Blackhat, you are right. Realistically, you could becuase Real Life has no play balance. For SR purposes though, it doesn't quite wash.
My intent was to allow the cyber to match the meat without requiring a cybertorso under the assumption that the rest of the body could handle the stress of a high Str/Agi limb, so there is no good reason why it could not handle the stress of an equivalent cyber-replacement. It was either that, or require a cybertorso for any limb that had any rating that exceeded the natural body's stats.
However, making a matching arm for metahumans still requires a little bit of special attention. Of course, considering that equipment has no weight other than what the GM feels it should weigh, I suppose the issue is kind of moot.

In case you forgot (or never really read previous editions), elven muscles are flatter and thus a little strong than their bulk suggests. That is why they have a Strength of 3 despite their leaner physique. I think it safe to extrapolate that there are enough other subtle physiological differences that you couldn't do that and have it work as the players intend.
Any agility bonus in that case would be negated by the human brain's inability to adjust THAT far out of it's range. If you disagree, then you are allowing for humans to have a strength of 17.
Veggiesama
Curious, has anyone ever made (and presumably posted) alternative rules for cyberlimbs? The whole "average your stats/armor together" idea really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I was wondering if anyone have (perhaps) simpler ways of dealing with cyberlimbs.
Hell Hound
Here is one idea I have toyed with, but never had a chance to playtest;

It is assumed that the metal can outperform the meat (that's the whole premise behind getting cyberware in the first place), so cyberlimbs are calibrated to operate at the characters current attribute levels so that they do not exceed the capacity of the rest of the body (a person with two legs hitting the ground at different speeds and/or different amounts of force would have a lot of trouble being able to run without falling over).

When you raise your natural attribute, or install some strength/agility enhancing cyberware in the meat parts of your body, you pop into a local street doc and get the limbs recalibrated, custom grade cyberlimbs self calibrate so you don't need to visit a street doc. If a character goes ahead and replaces all four limbs their natural attributes are no longer a concern and their augmented attributes are considered to be at racial maximum.

A cybertorso is required for a cyberlimb to exceed racial maximums under any circumstances, and beyond racial maximum each point must be purchased as per the standard rules.

For the Body attribute cyberlimbs are considered to start at Racial Maximum, again the metal/synthetic polymer/whatever should be more durable than typical flesh and blood.
Feshy
QUOTE
What stops a human from ordering an elven cyberarm under these rules?
It might look a little disproportionate, but their arms are roughly the same size - and there isn't enough of a difference in their anatomy to argue that you can't wire one to the other (After all, standard cyberarms can be put onto eitehr race).


I'd allow it. Of course, I'd also state that "slightly disproportionate" translates to a -1 agility loss. So you get no real benefit to looking like a freak. Still, it'd make for good fluff: "I got patched up in this field hospital in the Congo, and all they had left where Elf cyberarms. You know how hard it is to buy a jacket with one sleeve longer than the other?"

The real problem comes in with Ork or Dwarf cyberlimbs and players wanting to install them. It's reasonable to rule that they can't properly apply the extra strength (due to the wrong size shoulder socket), but it's hard to come up with an excuse to reduce the limb's "body" attribute.

The EXTRA huge problem comes in the form of full 'borg mods. A human could, "reasonably," get the Troll Legs, Torso, and Arms, and perch his puny head atop it. This would be, in addition to unbalancing, quite ridiculous.

So I'd only go with these rules if you don't mind an Iron GM Fiat: You only get limbs of your type; or at the very least you forfeit any advantages for other metatypes if you don't. No matter how much "sense" such reductions make.
Liper
one time we were creating a superman (think niche) for our runners to go against, or at least encounter...

Anyhow, a physical adept, geasa, and then a full replacment of skull, torso, limbs, eyes, ears, then tactical computer built into a limb...

And still a positive essence, so for the added stats, made it a dwarf and rulled all the limbs were troll limbs, hell a troll torso and skull cage.

Voila, bamf! powerful, and still retained adept powers which were the reflexes.
Squinky
This is why I hope they throw away that whole geasa idea....or at least modify it some, because it was too hard to resist cheesy shit like this...
HappyDaze
I will simply rule that a cyberlimb isn't bulk built but is instead custom made for the recipient (and, much like culturted bioware, this doesn't change what grades it comes in).

This allows for a base rating by race (ex: Troll limbs have higher base Body and Strength with a lower base Reaction) and then increased costs for higher than average stats while at the same time prohibiting cross-metatype limbs.

Jay
Liper
other then putting things into a cyber limb, there's not much reason to ever get one for a regular player.

snowRaven
Why not use the rules for 'using unadapted gear', pg.301?

An ork, human, or elf using a dwarf or troll cyberlimb looses 2 dice to tests made with it. A troll using a dwarf limb or vice versa looses 4 dice. (This can be halved when the limb is involved in a test but isn't the sole limb used, and ignored for tests that ionvolve the entire body - calculated in the same way as for what attribute to use for a test when they differ).

For argument's sake, a human or elf using an ork limb loose 1 die.

Leave Agility at 3 for all limbs, regardless of race.

Body at 3 for dwarves, humans and elves. 6 for orks and 8 for trolls.

Strength at 4 for humans and elves, 6 for oreks and dwarves, and 8 for trolls. (to bring them back to the augmented SR3 levels)

More than 3 points of enhancement requires a cybertorso (alternatively extensive restructuring of shoulder/chest or hip/lower spine in the style of SR3, maybe costing .2 essence per extra point or something).
jervinator
The problem is, there is no real way to formally, through hard and fast rules, stop true munchkinism such as that demonstrated in various entries in this thread. That is where the GM must law down the law.
If you allow your players to get Troll arms on a non-Troll, then either:
A) You are so liberal that the rules don't matter at all anyways, or
B) You let your players run rough-shod over you that, well, the rules don't matter at all anyways.
If you, as a GM, believe that putting Troll arms on for the increased strength is possible, you're a little sketchy. If you believe it's possible without any drawbacks, you have a limited sense of balance. If the player WANTED a Troll, they should have GENERATED a Troll!
And if you allow your players to get away with that sort of abuse, either toss the rules out anyways, or hand your GM screen to someone who will stand up to the players. It is possible to keep them in their place without being unfair or abusive, and my players actually enjoy the challenge of coming up with ways to munch out subtly instead of overtly.
Liper
QUOTE
The problem is, there is no real way to formally, through hard and fast rules, stop true munchkinism such as that demonstrated in various entries in this thread.


you do realise in 3rd edition, you can't use a troll limb on a dwarf, or any other racial limb on a different race.

QUOTE
If the player WANTED a Troll, they should have GENERATED a Troll!


in sr3, who wants the -2 int?

or -1 quick, hehe.

not sure about the others, but for me it was a special npc.

Adarael
QUOTE
If you, as a GM, believe that putting Troll arms on for the increased strength is possible, you're a little sketchy. If you believe it's possible without any drawbacks, you have a limited sense of balance. If the player WANTED a Troll, they should have GENERATED a Troll!


Or, as they say, 'make them get something custom-made.' There's nothing that says they can't get a custom shoulder mount with torso reinforcement, and need to take some time learning to use their huge, metal arm. Of course, that costs in time, essence, and money.

Haven't you ever wanted a character with some sort of signature 'thing', like an oversize Soviet arm used for heavy industry work? Or spinal reinforcement? Or some kind of skull rebuild?

QUOTE
And if you allow your players to get away with that sort of abuse, either toss the rules out anyways, or hand your GM screen to someone who will stand up to the players. It is possible to keep them in their place without being unfair or abusive, and my players actually enjoy the challenge of coming up with ways to munch out subtly instead of overtly.


Way to perpetuate the idea of Players-Versus-GM rather than Players-With-GM.
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (jervinator)
The problem is, there is no real way to formally, through hard and fast rules, stop true munchkinism such as that demonstrated in various entries in this thread. That is where the GM must law down the law.
If you allow your players to get Troll arms on a non-Troll, then either:
A) You are so liberal that the rules don't matter at all anyways, or
B) You let your players run rough-shod over you that, well, the rules don't matter at all anyways.
If you, as a GM, believe that putting Troll arms on for the increased strength is possible, you're a little sketchy. If you believe it's possible without any drawbacks, you have a limited sense of balance. If the player WANTED a Troll, they should have GENERATED a Troll!
And if you allow your players to get away with that sort of abuse, either toss the rules out anyways, or hand your GM screen to someone who will stand up to the players. It is possible to keep them in their place without being unfair or abusive, and my players actually enjoy the challenge of coming up with ways to munch out subtly instead of overtly.

Good God, man. You're wrong on so many levels that it's not even funny.

It's not such a horrible thing to work with your players so that they have characters that they like, and that are special in some way.

F'rex, in an upcoming SR4 game, I'm playing a Gun-Fu adept who wears a mask. I wanted a voice modulator, and talked to my GM about it, and he allowed me to build the VMod into the helmet at an increased cost.

Stuff like that is cool! It doesn't break the game in any way, either.

So the human street sam has a HONKING big arm? Think of the PENALTIES! Not just the normal cyber-social modifiers, that thing's gonna make it impossible to get into some places!

Now, that's not saying I'd allow cross-species cyberlimbs - I probably wouldn't, or I'd apply the mentioned penalty for non-adapted gear.

It's not wrong to be open to new and special things. It is wrong to be close minded.
Serbitar
You cant give Dwarfs +2 (5) strength cyberarms and leave humans with +0 (3) cyberarms. Dwarf cyberarms are actually smaller than human cyberarms. How can they be stronger with the same technology?

Dwarfs profit from their "denser muscular structure". But when they switch to cyberarms, this advantage is gone and they will, for all logic reasoning, even get worse strength cyberarms than humans (if you trust in the bigger = stronger relation).
Squinky
Thats the problem with cyber-arms right there. They should be able to surpass meta-human ability. I don't think they should go off of this human max attribute, or even a house ruled one that lets metas get their advantage....They should just have their own norms and maxes, regardless of race....but it should be much higher in my mind.

Body should just be a barrier rating or something that can be upgraded...Strength should be the bread and butter of cyber-limbs, I would think they should follow the troll Strength rate right off the bat, start at 7 got till 10 without a torso, then allow up to 15...It would make for some strong bastards, but then again, they are chopping off their arm, paying a load of essence and losing the ability to effectively use much of the good ware. I would go with the standard agility rates for all, Elves would be a bit screwed here, but too bad.
Serbitar
What about:

Cyberlim description STR/BOD/AG/REA
Standard size (Human, Elf) 6/6/4/5
Ork size 8/8/4/5
Troll size 10/10/4/4
Dwarf size 6/5/4/5

Torso needed for increasing over max racial attribute

-2 agility (all tests) for ech level of wrong size category (dwarf, human/elf, ork, troll) (-6 for a Dwarf with Troll arms)
jervinator
Adarael - I never intended to come across that way. You are correct that it should never be "Players-Versus-GM rather than Players-With-GM". I NEVER punish my players for coming up with creative, workable, realistic ideas. If they can provide a suitable justification, I allow quite a bit of leeway. GMs aren't there to punish players, merely to interpret and enforce the rules and disallow anything that is either overly unbalancing or just unrealistic given their understanding of how the world works.

Aside from the first sentence, I wholeheartedly agree with Gothic Rose. I would also allow that voice modulator, at increased cost to account for the helmet customization. And if someone wants an oversized arm for style, I would make the player pay more for custom clothing and gear to match that arm.
It's not that I am closed-minded. It's just that some things DO unbalance games, and I believe that allowing a character to effectively change metatypes is stretching things a little bit too far.
Of course, if SR medical science really is at the point where they can replace the ENTIRE body, and the PC is willing to pay the hefty nuyen for a matching set (custom torso and all), I'd allow it. But as the rules state that the cybertorso is more of a shell than a full replacement, for the moment I am disallowing it, unless the PC wants to place themselves at the risk inherent to all experimental surgeries (full brain transplant).

Serbitar - I am operating under the assumption that the 'muscles' do not fill the entire limb. There is empty space in the limb in order to both allow for accessories/upgrades (cyberweaponry etcetera) and to maintain a normal, realistically proportional size/shape. I also assume that, since raising the stats raises manufacturing cost, stock cyberlimbs are made for the average person off the street, with average stats, and increased stats cost extra.
I justify raising the costs the company has to offset their cost of researching all the differences between humans and metahumans whereas they have much more experience with normal human prosthetics. (Or they are just Capitalists wink.gif )
Besides, it's really +0 (5) strength for a stock dwarf cyberarm. If you wish to alter the capacity of cyberlimbs to acccount for different metatypes, then by all means. Or you could just fudge that for simplicity, like Fanpro did with equipment weight wink.gif
Serbitar
You did not get my point. The bigger an arm is, the stronger you can make it by default. A dwarf arm is by default smaller than a human arm, so it is weaker.

Of corse, the arm is not "filled" thats why capacity is still left. Of course you can renormalize all the cyberlimts to have 3/3/3/3 stats, but then you will have to change the capacity by race. And thats where everybody will see that drwaf arms will not have that much strength as humans, because they are smaller and thus can not have the same ammount of strength upgrades installed and still have the same ammount of capacity left.

As a futher note I think: Reaction and agility upgrades should not cost capacity. A small arm can be just as agile as a big one, but it can not be as strong or offer as much resistance.
Squinky
Cyber-limbs don't have their own reaction attribute. They only have Body, Strength, and Agillity.
Liper
I think it's that arms are built to suit the average user from the factory for each race.

I always thought default stats for arms were just too weak.

Unless you're making a average stat character and craming a ton of things into the limb, you were always better off just going for other cyber =/
Squinky
See, thats a big beef with me and cyber-limbs, capacity. You can put a smartlink system in your contact lens, but getting attribute enhancements cost a ton in a cyber-arm...That and the limiting-ness of them...

But I am always so tempted to play a guy with an arm for the cool-factor, but I just can't do it, the munchkin number cruncher on my shoulder would'nt allow it...
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Squinky)
Thats the problem with cyber-arms right there. They should be able to surpass meta-human ability.

No doubt they could. I image, with the right internals, you could design a cyberarm that could generate enough force to lift a small bus off the ground. The problem comes in when that force ends up ripping the arm from it's flesh & blood moorings before the first bus tire leaves the earth.

Though you could always go for the full borg conversions.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Serbitar)
You cant give Dwarfs +2 (5) strength cyberarms and leave humans with +0 (3) cyberarms. Dwarf cyberarms are actually smaller than human cyberarms. How can they be stronger with the same technology?

Dwarfs profit from their "denser muscular structure". But when they switch to cyberarms, this advantage is gone and they will, for all logic reasoning, even get worse strength cyberarms than humans (if you trust in the bigger = stronger relation).

True...

But you have to consider the body the arm is put on as well - dwarves being proportionally broader and with different muscles, could conceivably be said to be able to support a stronger arm without modification to their remaining meat.

(We're already making so many leaps of logic (and faith) in SR rules as is - one more in the name of game balance surely won't matter much...)
Demon_Bob
Considering the various sizes and str on the various robot today in industry, I do not see why the cyberlimbs would not come factory made according to the average physical stats of the race that they were bought for.
Dwarfs and Trolls would have to pay more for their limbs because of non-standard sizes due to increased material usage or micronization.
A short air cylinder hooked up to 120 psi will crush things just as easily as a longer one hooked up to the same air pressure. The only difference is that a larger mechanism would have a longer reach and could therefore conceavably crush a larger object.
Squinky
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
QUOTE (Squinky @ Nov 9 2005, 10:21 AM)
Thats the problem with cyber-arms right there. They should be able to surpass meta-human ability.

No doubt they could. I image, with the right internals, you could design a cyberarm that could generate enough force to lift a small bus off the ground. The problem comes in when that force ends up ripping the arm from it's flesh & blood moorings before the first bus tire leaves the earth.

Though you could always go for the full borg conversions.

I totally agree, that is why there is the requirement to buy a cyber-torso when you reach 6, and I dig that.

It's after that, the arms are now firmly attached to a cyber-torso built to withstand a lot more than a persons body....
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Squinky)
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Nov 9 2005, 02:46 PM)
Though you could always go for the full borg conversions.

I totally agree, that is why there is the requirement to buy a cyber-torso when you reach 6, and I dig that.

It's after that, the arms are now firmly attached to a cyber-torso built to withstand a lot more than a persons body....

I'm half tempted to say that it should be cybertorso and cyberlegs, after all, a firm mounting between cyberarm and cybertorso does no good if meat knees dislocate trying to withstand the force.
Liper
it would just depend on the situation, applying your strength like argent does to say open a door doesn't mean anything to your legs.

Trying to life a bus on the other hands comes mainly from the legs.

Liper
omfg, I really read the cyber limb rules, they totally rock now.

Let's look at a pair of arms.

arm 15k
making it str +3 750
agi +3 750

gee, max for your race (whatever race it is) 16.5k.

1 essence.

Hell limbs just got alot more cooler now that I read it.

human with two arms that way

str 6, agi 6, bod3 on the arms for 23k.

not to mention you can save alot of essence by throwing in commlink in a arm, datajack, etc.

Liper
oooo, just got a picture of the sniper from the ghost in the shell series

the eye with the smartlink mod, put a torso and max agility into the arm and the recoil adjusting thing.

RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Liper)
it would just depend on the situation, applying your strength like argent does to say open a door doesn't mean anything to your legs.

The leverage you're applying to the door has to come from somewhere, like having your feet firmly planted on the floor.
PlatonicPimp
In my house rules, cyberlimbs can perform at your racial augmented maximum out of the box. However, when you get them installed, the cyberdoc adds safeties to reduce it's performace to what your meat body is capable of withstanding. Addtionally, limbs are made to match your existing body structure. For this reason when you get a cyberarm, it's stats are exactly equal to your own stats.

It is possible to set the limb to perform better than your meat bod, but in order to do so you must add safety features to the cyberware to insure that it does not damage you or itself during operation. These cost money and take up space. The costs fro stat increases in the book are the same, as is the rule that you cannot increase a stat by more than 3 without a cybertorso.

I also have rules for overiding the safeties and maxing your limb output, side effects be damned, but those are pretty complex to implement. I'll post them if anyone is interested. "Redlining" like this is suicidal anyway, as the implant will literally rip itself from your body.
Liper
QUOTE
The leverage you're applying to the door has to come from somewhere, like having your feet firmly planted on the floor.


I was talking about van doors, elevator doors etc, where the pull is between your torso and each arm.


Teulisch
something to add- in SR 3, a cyberskull or torso did not have its own strength or quickness (agility/reaction) attribute. The limbs attribute is only counted when you use the limb. So, you skull/torso (where most people will be shooting at) do not need strength/agility, just body+armor.

getting only a cybertorso, and maxing out its body and armor. 1.5 essence (1.2 if alpha), 5 or 10 capacity, at chargen you could at most have body +4, armor +2.

Body 7, armor +2/+2, and 2 capacity for a commlink, for a mere $21,400 and 1.5 essence. Its cheaper, more availible, and more effective than titanium bone lacing(which is also 1.5 essence), and its legal (R instead of F). A very good deal for someone with a natural body of 4 or less, if they have essence to burn.

Unless we get some errata for metahuman cyberlimbs, its a bad deal for orks and trolls, but its great for humans.
Squinky
My understanding is this:

You have a body 4 character with a body 6 torso, in order to find his body for dmg resistance you average the two (more if you have limbs with different body attributes) and it comes to 5 in this case, okay, not a horrible deal really....but not the same as getting a body bonus straight off from other body beefing ware....

Also, and I'm not sure about this, but your example of armor isn't how I understood it. I thought you averaged armor also, so your armor of 2 on your torso will be divided among the 5 normal armor locations, which will turn out to be nothing unless you round up to 1...I'm just going off of Sr3 rules and the vagues Sr4 rule about averaging limbs....so I may be wrong on that....

Personally, if armor did work the way you say, I might actaully make a cyber-limbed human sammy. It would make sense to pay 2 whole capacity for it then...

I have tried to make a full borg sammy, and even with house rules it usaully can be far outdone by using other bio and cyber....
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (Squinky)
Also, and I'm not sure about this, but your example of armor isn't how I understood it. I thought you averaged armor also, so your armor of 2 on your torso will be divided among the 5 normal armor locations, which will turn out to be nothing unless you round up to 1...I'm just going off of Sr3 rules and the vagues Sr4 rule about averaging limbs....so I may be wrong on that....

The rules are fairly explicit. They mention averaging the abilities. They mention nothing about averaging armor.
Liper
in sr3, you averages the armour of all limbs unless the shot was a specific location.
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (Liper)
in sr3, you averages the armour of all limbs unless the shot was a specific location.

I don't care about SR3, because the game is SR4. New rules-set, new rules.
Liper
if there isn't a rule present in sr4, you could assume whatever you have from 3rd would likely apply.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Squinky)
My understanding is this:

You have a body 4 character with a body 6 torso, in order to find his body for dmg resistance you average the two (more if you have limbs with different body attributes) and it comes to 5 in this case, okay, not a horrible deal really....but not the same as getting a body bonus straight off from other body beefing ware....

you have a char with:

right arm 4
left arm 4
right leg 4
left leg 4
torso 6

= (4+4+4+4+6)/5 = 22/5 = 4.4 = 4

This is NOT 5.
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (Gothic Rose)

The rules are fairly explicit. They mention averaging the abilities. They mention nothing about averaging armor.

Yeah, the rules in SR4 are completely explicit. They always make sure to mention important details and never contradict themselves. Take skill caps for example. THe rules are never, ever unclear on what applies and what doesn't. sarcastic.gif
Knarfy
Dig it yo nyahnyah.gif

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...opic=10019&st=0
Squinky
QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (Squinky @ Nov 10 2005, 09:20 PM)
My understanding is this:

You have a body 4 character with a body 6 torso, in order to find his body for dmg resistance you average the two (more if you have limbs with different body attributes) and it comes to 5 in this case, okay, not a horrible deal really....but not the same as getting a body bonus straight off from other body beefing ware....

you have a char with:

right arm 4
left arm 4
right leg 4
left leg 4
torso 6

= (4+4+4+4+6)/5 = 22/5 = 4.4 = 4

This is NOT 5.

Well, it isn't in your way of doing the math. Obviously.

According to the description in the book, you average the normal body and any cyber limbs, not every spot on the body, that would be dumb.

So a guy with a cyber torso and a cyber right arm would average natural body+Torso body+R arm body....I see no reason or example of having to do it your (sucky) way...

BlackHat
QUOTE (Squinky)
I see no reason or example of having to do it your (sucky) way...

That was just how it was done in SR3, so I'm sure that's where he was coming from.
Squinky
Well, since there was no body attribute on limbs in SR3, there is really no point in this. There are specific rules pertaining to strength and agility, each different and suited to that attribute. But most of the time the averaging rule still worked the way I pointed out, averaging the natural bodys abilitys with the cyber abilitys, not breaking the body up into sections if there was no cyber there.
PlatonicPimp
No, I'm pretty sure it always worked out so that your body came in 6 sections. I really wish there was a "Body slot" or "Paper doll" system for cyberware. something like "retractable claws take up your hand location" or somesuch. A sort of "How much capacity does a natural body part have" system. Ah well, until then common sense mst prevail.
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