I liked the old initiative system (2nd and 3rd editions). I liked the way a random initiative roll gave you your initiative and the number of actions you got that turn.

It made sense to me that really fast characters could go once or three times before other characters got to go at all in 2nd edition. When they changed it in 3rd edition, I was funny, but I understood the annoyance of having slow character (magicians) waiting around until all the adepts and sams finished all their actions first.

They unified it even more in 4th edition by giving all characters a fixed number of "initiative passes" each round. I'm a little funny on this one too, but I'm gonna give it a try.

So, on to my point: there seems to be only a couple ways of getting more than one initiative pass:

1) Cyberware (i.e. Wired Reflexes)
2) Adept power (i.e. Improved reflexes)
3) Go VR
4) Astrally project
5) Have the Increase Reflexes spell cast on you.

Do you think it would be fair to allow a more mundane way to get another initiative pass? Here's an idea I've been playing with:

Allow the purchase of a quality - call it "Natural Reflexes" - that gives you an additional initiative pass. Wired reflexes 1 costs 10,000 , which comes out to 2 BP, so I think 5 BP is fair for this quality. I'm thinking of only allowing it for characters who meet a prerequisite Reaction rating.

What do you think?

Dread Polack

Make it a 10 or 15... an extra pass is rather amazing for simple natural ability. I'm unsure about it personally though...

One thing to note is that two of the book's mundane animals (great cat and wolf, I think) inexplicably have two IP's, with no special qualities or anything mentioned.

The nuyen cost for an extra initiative pass is low because all cyberware tends to be extremely low. To get an extra initiative pass as a magic character has a heavier cost:

- 3 BP for a caster to learn it, then required to sustain it (or purchase a foci) which can be painful on their other actions
- To get one extra IP as an Adept costs an entire 2 power points, or 20 bp worth of Magic attribute.

Not to mention the cost of taking the qualities to gain Magic.

So yeah, I'd lean more towards 10 or 15 BP as the cost for Natural Reflexes, but I do think it should be possible. A lot of qualities are kinda cruddy as is, and this would make sense to add.

I say bad idea. 2 probs for me:

1. Cybered/magicked/whatever characters PAY a decent amount for that extra pass, It would be unfair to make a normal guy as good as augmented characters...Thats why normal folk become augmented...

2. Everywhere you looked would be Street Shamans with this new fancy quality. Also you would get a lot of Street Sams that would get it to save essence and the even more valuable starting cash (used on other ware) Same deal with adepts...Thats 2 magic points saved...Yikes....

This idea is kinda like a a character wanting to make a new Heavy Pistol that fires burst and has teh ruger damage codes, everbody would get it....

No, but you could build such thing perfectly with the CC rules.

Who hasn't?

*rising a hand* Me!

Noob!

Of course, you could just develop a nasty addiction to any of whole range of great combat drugs! That'd be worth the extra passes, surely

Okay, so I use combat drugs and get addicted. Then I pay twice the Negative Quality's value in karma and get the Quality removed. I keep using the drugs, though. Repeat.

So I'm just fueling my extra IPs with karma. Yay!

GM Discretion.

Which means at some point a wise GM might smack you down for exploiting him/her.

Allowing a Quality that gives you an extra IP should cost a minimum of 20 BP, and preferrably 25 or maybe even 30 BPs. That extra IP should NOT be compatible with any magical or technological IP enhancing stuff - you simply get the higher bonus.

Not stacking with 'ware or Magical IP bonuses is probably the best way to allow it from a gaming perspective, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense since it is "natural".

I would NOT increase the cost above 20BP because that would preclude some character types from having it. At 25BP Magicians could no longer take it, at 30BP Mystic Adepts cannot.

Good points, all around. I'm not sure if it's still a good idea, but here's a revised version, ready to be picked apart:

"Natural Reflexes" -15 points
Prerequisite: Reaction 6 (or higher, or perhaps an Initiative minimum of 12 or so)
This gives the character an extra initiative in normal combat. This extra pass does not stack with extra initiative passes gained from other means.

This quality would be meant for characters who want to go "natural" and aren't awakened. They're simply naturally gifted individuals or dedicated martial artists.

Dread Polack

You know, I really dig that truthfully...Since it requires a lot in the first place...Can't really knock it...

Yep i like that as well. The sammies and adepts arent going to get too bent out of shape over a mundane having one extra pass... not sure how if it could be abused by mages/shaman though.

Or the poor bastards who have to convert an SR3 character to SR4.

@Dread Polack

I'm not crazy about having a "Prerequisite". Prerequisites are few in the Positive Qualities, and none of them hing on a fixed attribute value. They are centered around awakened/techno status and and a few on race. For example First Impression does NOT have a Charisma prerequisite, and can co-exist with social Negatives.

I'm especially leary of setting it at Rea (6), which actually precludes a Dwarf w/o Improved Attribute (Reaction) from taking it, or Init(12) which precludes the Dwarfs and also Trolls w/o Improved Attribute (Intuition).

How could a low Init or Rea character have an extra IP? They are the Tortoise, slow and steady they win the race. They aren't first off the mark, they don't have the twitch factor or particular obvious grace. But their smooth, methodical technique allows them an extra IP.

I thought the core rules (and its philosophy) didn't allow to have more than 1 ip except with unatural modifiers or edge ...

I have nothing to add ...
If a quality 1 bp cheaper than synaptic booster (and without the loss of .5 essence) doesn't seems obviously unbalanced to you (and your dm if you are not him) - then go for it !

To make it a bit more balanced, simply say the quality does not stack with other means of increased initiative passes. Allows mundane characters to go with a bit more omf (to make up for being screwed without cyber,bio, magic, or powers.) Keep it at 15 so that it costs more than most 1st level enhancements.

And remember folks that the quality does not even boost reaction; that is a factor almost as powerful as the extra pass itself.

In addition, perhaps allow a negative quality to characters with improved initiative pass boosts to have a similar initiative check threshold or they lose one of their extra passes. Makes things more interesting. Perhaps a 5 or 10 bp flaw and make the two qualities uncompatible.

Wow- looks like people are at least finding it an interesting debate

The original idea was simply to give non-cybered, mundane characters a way to get more than one initiative pass. I pictured highly trained characters able to move almost as fast someone with cybernetic or supernatural speed. It would be meant for characters who are unable to, or never plan to gain extra initiative passes any other way. I still think that adepts and cybered characters should be able to go faster than normals (and with this option they can). That's why I would attach the stipulation that it does not stack with other means of gaining initiative passes.

I don't know if it'll ever come up in my campaign, but if anyone tries it, let me know.

Dread Polack

I personally think it is a good idea. Some of the combat drugs allow an extra IP, so that is a way of saying that a normal persons body is capable of it, without magic or bio/cyber, and therefore so some highly trained mundanes should be able to purchase the ability.