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Zengou
Alright my GM just got Rigger 3 and we were having a ball with all the fun junk in there. Espcially when we found the Rail Guns. But we noticed that there was only info on Medium and Heavy Rail guns. So we were left wondering what the stats on a light rail gun would be. Could any body help us out with this?
GunnerJ
What'cha talkin' about? There's light railguns. The Aztechnology Xicohtencatl is a Light Railgun with a damage code of 6 LN. It's on page 91 of Rigger3.
Ed_209a
Light is a relative term for anything with a naval damage code. smile.gif

I prefer "Not quite so overwhelmingly massive".
Tzeentch
I'm always amazed how many people like those things wink.gif
MotorPsyko
Mmmm... Eraser...
Abstruse
mmmmm Quake 2...

The Abstruse One
Kagetenshi
Mmm railguns...

~J
Fygg Nuuton
mmm pie...
Kagetenshi
Is the pie also evil?

Railpie!

~J
Fygg Nuuton
evilrailpie! > anything
Birdy
In a hurry (having a date with DORA on the Crimean)

mmmmh - Anzio Annie


I like my woman biiig and explosive

Birdy




Jonah
rail guns = rock'n
eraser = not a rail gun (an aluminum round?? anyone tried picking up an aluminium slug with a magnet lately??)

Beware the munchkin with the Man Portable Rail Gun

**welch**

if you look in CP or Aliens sources it has to be shoulder mounted MINIMUM and even then it is nasty (and FORGET naval damage buddy smile.gif
Stonecougar
Ah, rail guns. The only time a 'runner PC should ever see one is in a magazine or on trid.

Which is not to say my rigger hasn't tried.
Cray74
QUOTE (Jonah)
rail guns = rock'n
eraser = not a rail gun (an aluminum round?? anyone tried picking up an aluminium slug with a magnet lately??)

Actually, Jonah, railguns frequently use aluminum projectiles in real life.

There are many different ways to magnetically accelerate projectiles.

Coil guns use a series of electromagnetic "donuts" around the barrel to successively yank a projectile down the barrel. The projectile has to be responsive to magnetic fields - the easiest way to do this is to make it out of iron or some other ferromagnetic alloy. Aluminum won't work, as you noted.

I'd like to make a point about coil guns, though: their electromagnetic coils are probably not made of a magnetic material. They probably use aluminum or copper windings, neither metal being magnetic. They're turned into magnets by running electricity through them. (Basic fact of electromagnetism: where electric current flows, there is a magnetic field.) Did you ever do that in science class or at home? Take some copper wire, wind it around a pencil, and apply a 9-volt battery, then lift a nail or some other piece of iron?

This brings us to rail guns. Railguns don't give a wet fart about how the projectile material responds to electric fields. The important part is that the projectile is CONDUCTIVE. See, railguns actually generate a magnetic field in their projectile by running an electric current through it. The current from capacitors is run up one rail, across the projectile, and down the other rail to complete the circuit. Because the projectile's electrical current is at right angles to the electrical currents in the rails, it's repelled by the magnetic fields in both rails. Aluminum makes a great material for the railgun prototypes because it's very electrically conductive and easy to shape.

(Note: aluminum is a good material for railgun prototypes, but it sucks for actual weapon applications. It has abysmal properties for a penetrator.)

Here's some links to real life rail guns that use aluminum projectiles. There seems to be a whole rail gun hobby culture out there:

Copper, Aluminum, and Graphite Projectiles

Aluminum Projectiles and Railgun Theory

Blog of Railgun Construction, with Aluminum Projectiles (Called "Armatures." Also some railgun theory.)

University Class Discussion of Railguns, with Aluminum and Graphite Projectiles

Lilt
Hey: give your munchkins man-portable railguns with the same stats as the laser weapons in CC, except that they're not as quiet, they need to be loaded with slugs (good luck getting hold of good quality ones on the streets) and they suffer recoil penalties as normal (maybe extra?) but can't take most RC mods. They are also resisted with ballistic armor rather than 1/2 impact.

I'd rather the munchkin got their hands on one of them than the laser weapon it's based on.
Cray74
QUOTE (Lilt)
Hey: give your munchkins man-portable railguns with the same stats as the laser weapons in CC, except that they're not as quiet, they need to be loaded with slugs (good luck getting hold of good quality ones on the streets) and they suffer recoil penalties as normal (maybe extra?) but can't take most RC mods. They are also resisted with ballistic armor rather than 1/2 impact.

That's an excellent suggestion. I like the idea. The players get their rail guns and the GM only has to deal with a slightly weakened version of an existing weapon.
Lilt
Actually I think there'd be positive aspects too (after re-reading the laser weapon rules).

There would be no reduction in power based on range (normally -2 per range category above short) or smoke/fog (-1 per 2 meters). Chuck a bit more recoil at them and it'll be fine.
Shockwave_IIc
How about (for the munkins out there) you get yourself a large anthomorthic(sp?) drone beef it up, and put on it a light railgun on each shoulder.

You could call it dunno XV88 battledrone or something.biggrin.gif
ialdabaoth
And promptly knock yourself flat on your ass when you try to fire it.
Req
...and load it with WOOD for huntin' vampires!

Three cheers for Rifts, the brokenest game around.
Wonazer
QUOTE (Req)
...and load it with WOOD for huntin' vampires!

Three cheers for Rifts, the brokenest game around.

Rifts?
/shudders
Palladium Game's products in general!!
i.e. Robotech, TMNT, Ninjas and Superspies, Heroes Unlimited, etc...
El_Machinae
Rifts? Railguns? Vampires? Hmmmn, gives me an idea biggrin.gif

There's another game out there called "Alternity" (which I'm currently playing) and they have weapon that uses rail technology to fire a rocket out the chamber, and THEN the rocket ignites. It's kinda like a rail-boltgun. Or a rail gyrojet if you will.

In a game I'll be running, there's a robot built that looks like a Mac II - with the four cannons on top. Except, those cannons are actually magnetic-field generating devices. A round is popped up into the middle of the rails and they're turned on. Can you imagine the energy a vehicle the size of a Mac II could generate?

Sadly, I still can't get something up to relativistic speed. Ares would have a bonanza if they could "field test" their weapon by making craters on the moon! eek.gif
Kagetenshi
"What are we going to do, throw rocks at them?"
"Exactly."

~J
Siege
Isn't that how most people describe orbital bombardments?

-Siege
Kagetenshi
Ever read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress?

~J
Cray74
QUOTE (Siege)
Isn't that how most people describe orbital bombardments?

Yeah, they do...but actual rock (or the just silly "balls of garbage" described in T:WL) is a poor choice for orbital bombardment. Plain silicate rocks smaller than a hundred meters or so in diameter just don't survive re-entry, not intact. They fracture and break-up.

Metals are a good choice. Iron's a good, cheap, common material for lunar mass drivers to sling at Earth. A large slug (10+ tons) of solid aluminum would work, if you're willing to accept some mass loss.

If you're talking proper, purpose-built orbital bombardment weapons (a real Thor), you just need to get fancy with ceramic or ablative heat shields, careful aerodynamics, etc.
Buzzed
The Sirus corporation in Eraser was retarded. They didn't need to make portable rail guns to become multi-trillionaires, that scope alone was enough to do that, and last I looked, x-ray night vision gun scopes with auto-heart targeting were not illegal anywhere. If I was going deer hunting with one of those, I would never miss!

On another note, the smoke trail created by the rail gun slugs seemed reasonable, implicating that they designed the slugs to deteriate in order to reduce friction. This makes sense. If a projectile is causing resistance, the logical thing to do is to not resist by letting it fall apart. So the rail gun used in Eraser is a limited range weapon. Notice it was never fired from a distance of no more then 200 meters. A soft metal like aluminum would be able to break down easily in mid flight to reduce friction.

Actually, It would be possible to be able to fire any material out of a rail gun. Instead of using the metal slug as the projectile, use the slug as a propellent mass. Place an airodynamic round in front of the slug. When you fire, the magnetic force pushes the slug out the barrel, the slug pushes the round. Most likely, this design would require a "shock-spring net" on the end of the barrel to catch the slug after each shot, so it would be a SS weapon due to the need to pull it back into position by re-cocking.
Req
So you want to "catch" a metal mass moving in excess of several kilometers per second? No thanks.
Buzzed
QUOTE (Req @ Oct 28 2003, 06:45 PM)
So you want to "catch" a metal mass moving in excess of several kilometers per second?  No thanks.

That is what shock obsorbtion is for.
Siege
Interesting.

Take the flechette concept and upgrade it to an orbital platform with warheads or even just high-impact fragments.

Assuming you don't really want to crater the target and the subsequent evironmental consequences.

-Siege
Cray74
QUOTE (Siege)
Interesting.

Take the flechette concept and upgrade it to an orbital platform with warheads or even just high-impact fragments.

Assuming you don't really want to crater the target and the subsequent evironmental consequences.

Orbital flechettes: Thor as portrayed in Niven and Pournelle's "Footfall."

There won't be a lot of environmental consequences out of any impactor less than a few thousand tons, and even then they'll be local "small quake and lots of dirt raining on everything" effects.

You need to get up to objects a hundred meters across (1-3 megatons of rock) to have regional consequences from the impacts.
Siege
Dirt raining on people -- like the air contamination after the 9/11 attacks.

-Siege

Edit: Otherwise, any local flora and fauna will suffer but you're right -- it won't be mass extinction by any means.
Cray74
QUOTE (Siege)
Dirt raining on people -- like the air contamination after the 9/11 attacks.

That air contamination involved all sorts of fun, early 1970s building materials, plastics, asbestos (fire protection on the lower floors), etc. that wouldn't necessarily be found in normal soil.

Of course, if the orbital shots are hitting urban areas in Shadowrun, areas that make the 1970s look like models of environmental protectionism...and, gee, the good SR targets are all in urban areas, right?
Siege
Well, yeah...why waste a perfectly good orbital shot on anything not heavily developed? (Read: Urban sprawls) grinbig.gif

How does that saying go? Weapons engineers build weapons, civil engineers build targets?

-Siege
El_Machinae
Babies make tax payers.
Orbital weapons create the "won't get bombed today" tax
Req
QUOTE (Buzzed)
QUOTE (Req @ Oct 28 2003, 06:45 PM)
So you want to "catch" a metal mass moving in excess of several kilometers per second?  No thanks.

That is what shock obsorbtion is for.

So I'd have to pull a bunch of numbers outta my ass to really argue this, but - just what sort of shock absorbtion are you talking about? Even a quite light object moving at those speeds - say, the weight of a 7.62mm rifle round, about 10 grams, and let's say 2km/sec - that's, what, around 14,000 foot-pounds?

I would like to mention here that the numbers above are arbitrary. The point I'm making is that just about anything carries a tremendous amount of energy as velocity picks up. Remember that KE = .5 * m * v^2, and that squared part pays off.

Note - please, someone tell me if I'm on crack. I've done the math but I don't actually know that much about my starting assertions, and they may be utterly irrelevant.
Siege
I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that Buzzed was trying to be funny.

Maybe. I could be wrong.

-Siege
mfb
railguns--or, rather, the naval weapons rules--highlight an... oddity, for lack of a better word, in the rules. let's say i hit a building with a shell from a heavy railgun. in non-naval damage, that's a 75DDD+6 (75 power, 36 boxes of damage) explosion that decreases in power by -1 per meter.

so, Joe Unlucky is standing 74 meters away; his best friend, Joe Lucky, i standing a meter behind him. Joe Unlucky, the poor unlucky bastard, gets hit with 1DDD+6 damage--that is, power 1 / 36 boxes. he dies. Joe Lucky, however, doesn't get hit with anything besides the puree'd remains of Joe Unlucky.

next, on ripley's believe it or not...
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
Wellllllllll, you could always just remove one of those Ds every time you hit zero. So everyone within about 900 feet would be monster mashed, and then outside of that they would be severely injured, the moderately, than light and what have you.
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Ever read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress?

~J

heinlein ++

an excellent book!
Kanada Ten
I thought you subtracted from the Naval Damage side and then converted when it hits a soft target. Am I off here?
mfb
hm. possibly, possibly not. doesn't matter, really; just place Joe Unlucky and Joe Lucky at 14 and 15 meters, respectively.
Kanada Ten
That oddity exists with everything in SR (shotguns being the next example). I've thought about reducing the Damage Level by 1 for every -3 to the Power (like burst staging in reverse) but it's never been an issue in game to be honest.
John Campbell
It's not really a problem with normal-scale weapons, though, because their damage is in the stagable range. When you're talking a guy taking an M, maybe staging it down, and the guy next to him taking nothing, well, that's not a big deal. Naval damage, though, even at low power, is basically unstageable. A troll brick might be able to scrounge up the successes to stage 1MN down to something that just puts him deep into overdamage rather than killing him instantly. And that 11-year-old otaku girl with the 1 Body standing a meter further away will be completely unscathed. There's no fringe where people can be just wounded by naval-scale weapons; there is with normal area-effect weapons.
Hero
Hmmm, a Tau Broadside Battle Suit with twin linked rail gun love, now only if I had the option of firing the sub munitions thats available to the Hammerhead Tank. Oh, a bit off subject but the Tau have a new weapons in there arsenal now, the Rail Rifle, it is the Taus answer to there lack of a standard infantry sniper rifle. The Rail Rifle has a tendency to get very hot so it is prone to the effects similar to a standard plasma weapon from Warhammer 40k. I think a man portable rail gun should have a fairly long range, maybe sport or sniper rifle, and have a damage code of 12-15 moderate or serious which ever sounds reasonable. I figure that a man portable rail gun would would start to heat up after say 5 shots, as for the effects from heating up would either reduce the effectiveness of the Rail Gun or it would get to hot to handle. Both of which are easily remedied by having thermal resistant pads for all contact points where human to weapon touch.
El_Machinae
Wouldn't the capacitor be the main obstacle? You need a LOT of electric power (E=1/2mv^2), and you need it fast. It wouldn't be the size of the battery that would matter, it would be the jolt available.

Hmmmmn, railguns.

PS: there's nothing intrinsic about a railgun that makes it a superior weapon. I just like the sci-fi aspect. Another HUGE favorite of mine would be the 40k meltagun. It basically fires a burst of infrared at a target - yep, a heat ray.
Lilt
There is something similar to the meltagun developed by the US army as a non-lethal deterrant. It produces a beam of millimeter-wave radiation (between the IR and Microwave bands) that can get through clothes then make the skin's surface feel extremely hot. Do a search on millimeter wave on these forums, there was a discussion about millimeter wave stuff a while ago.
El_Machinae
Yeah, I've seen that. It's a 'pain device' right?

I just like the image of a multi-melta. You'd fire it, and there'd be a hum. Witnesses would see waves of heat. And vap! your opponent would combust.
Hero
Melta and Multi-Melta love, the amount of damage a melta weapon would do is scary and vehicle armor has next to no protection from them too. Damage I could see in the 18-20D range, count as AV, and soft armor would have no protection against it while vehicle armor only applies have its rating to damage resistance test. I would have normal melta guns use shotgun range while the multi-melta uses either heavy pistol or SMG range. Weight would be a bit difficult to figure out but I would just use the weight noted in Warhammer 40k, but I have as yet found a Codex that has the weight of the weapons.

I have been working on Warhammer 40k setting using all the SR rules and added one to the set. When you manifest or other cast a spell you have a chance of being attacked by warp entities or spirits to use SR term. I been working alot on the 40k races, and equipment like the Bolter, and Space Marine armor.
Cray74
QUOTE (Hero)
Melta and Multi-Melta love, the amount of damage a melta weapon would do is scary and vehicle armor has next to no protection from them too.

Is the Melta a microwave weapon as suggested above? (<--Question from someone who's played WH40K once.) If so, vehicle armor should stop it easily, as should any conductive body armor.
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