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SHINJO STYLA
Ok i have a HUMAN mystic adept with magic 6 with 3 points in mystic and 3 in adept.
he has killing hands and critical strike(4) and mystic armor (2) and attribute boost.

He has taken the mystic spirit, wise warrior(+2 dice with all combat rolls). and specialized in combat spells with a 2 in socery for a total of 9 dice to cast spells.(usually 3-4 hits and spends edge to make it so)
all spells are combat oriented and he has focused his character on dealing stun, ie he dosent want to kill anyone if he dosent have to.

He also has Unarmed comabat (5) specializing in martial arts (7) with an unboosted agility of 5, but usually gets 2 hits with his boost taking him to 7agi.

HOw would you deal with him casting the spell Knock out which requires a touch to cast. He always casts it at 12 + the 3-4 hits = 15-16s. The drain goes to only 3 boxes which he usually only takes 1-0 stun from after the drain due to drain foci and a nice body and logic.

The spell takes a complex action so how can you touch some one in the same turn, so he pays 1 edge (of 6) to act in the 2nd turn. then unloads with a str 5/2 =3 plus crit strike 4 = 7 then rolls 7 unarmed+ 7 boosted att. + 2 from the spirit warrior for a 14 dice pool which he usually gets 5-6 hits for taking his damage to 12-13 stun from the punch being the touch part of the spell than the spell dose another 15-16s. Knocking almost anyone out. Not to mention he has a stelath of 4 with a int of 5. for 9 on a stealth roll. and if he is he suprises for 2 more dice.

How would you call the damage to be absorbed? two rolls one roll either way he is dealing 27-29s. before dodge and body rolls. Now I see the spell as possibly being dodged since it is touch, but the spell is mana based only giving the opponent will to absorb the spell,but how can you dodge the spell when it is touch and he is like martial arts boy rolling 16 dice to hit, so i can say they can dodge to lower the physical hit but they are screwed on the will power only roll due to the spell hitting on mana.

now to reall screw you up the spell is an instant spell, the spell casting is a full action so how can it be instant, does he have to sustain it till he touches some one?

obviously he has found a very powerful and devestating combo Help me?

Squinky
Are you saying that your mentor wise warrior adds to all combat rolls? If so, the main book states that it adds to combat spells, not combat in general....
SHINJO STYLA
well that helps alittle but still reduces him only 2 dice on the to hit and i still need help with the damage and how to figure out if all he is doing is possible, but by book interpretations he doesnt even have to wait anoter pass to perform the spell i just imposed that on him.
Lilt
Firstly, you can't cast the spell at force 12 as you only have a magic of 3 as far as magical skills are concerned. As spell force is limited to 2x magic, that limits you to force 6.

You get to attempt to deliver the knock out spell for free as part of the casting action. That doesn't allow you to make a proper unarmed attack as part of the action, only to attempt to make contact.

The wise warrior only adds dice to combat spells (and detection spells), not all combat rolls so he wouldn't get the bonus on the melee attack.

The opponent would get an attempt to dodge the attack (unless surprised). The average number of successes from 14 dice (12 given that Wise Warrior doesn't quite work how you thought it did) is 4 rather than 5-6. The enemy also gets a willpower test to attempt to resist the spell. The enemy is likely to have a mutch higher initiative than you unless they're an unaugmented human.

Even if it were possible to deliver the two attacks simultaneously, they would be resisted separately.

I'd expect anybody spending two edge per combat round to beat an opponent who spends none.
SHINJO STYLA
thanks, for the help so what would he rol to touch them? still un armed just not adding in the unarmed damage?
Lilt
QUOTE (SHINJO STYLA @ Nov 15 2005, 11:30 PM)
thanks, for the help so what would he rol to touch them? still un armed just not adding in the unarmed damage?

That seems to be what's implied.

Another flaw is that you seem to be applying attribute boost for a +2 to both strength and agility, yet you can only have paid for it once. Attribute boost needs to be taken once for each attribute it's applied to according to the power description.

Similarly to my first point of not being able to cast the spell at force 10, you only have a magic attribute of 3 as far as adept powers are concerned. You thus only have a magic attribute of 3 with respect to physical adept powers and thus would only be rolling 5 dice on the test which doesn't really guarantee 2 successes (3 dice giving 1+2/3 hits average).
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Lilt)
Firstly, you can't cast the spell at force 12 as you only have a magic of 3 as far as magical skills are concerned. As spell force is limited to 2x magic, that limits you to force 6.

No. He can cast at Force 12. His Magic is limited to 3 for all purposes of dice rolling. His magic actually is 6 for all other purposes.

And yeah, High Force Stun Bolts are really nasty. But they are much nastier when used by real magicians, who can roll more dice for less.

-Frank
Lilt
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
No. He can cast at Force 12. His Magic is limited to 3 for all purposes of dice rolling. His magic actually is 6 for all other purposes.

Well I can hardly argue with your superior knowledge of the SR4 magic system, but I can debait biggrin.gif

I had assumed that because a character only had magic 3 for the purposes of magical skills then when using sorcery (a magical skill) the character would be working on the same level as another character with sorcery and magic 3. Are there any rules to the contrary that I'm missing?
Squinky
I'm with Lilt here. I thought the rules specifically addressed this (In Lilt's favor).
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Squinky)
I thought the rules specifically addressed this (In Lilt's favor).

They did. In 3rd edition. In 4th edition, Mystic Adepts use their split attribute to buy powers or increase dice pools, but their full magic attribute to cap their spells and powers. A Mystic Adept actually can spend all of her adept power points on Mystic Armor, because her full Magic attribute counts for the cap.

QUOTE (SR4)
Her other 3 points of Magic are dedicated to Magic skills. When using her Magic-linked dice pools, such as Spellcasting or Summoning, she will be able to allocate 3 dice for Magic (since the other is tied up in her adept powers). For all other uses, her Magic attribute counts at its full value


This question is the example from page 187, so we don't really need to extrapolate. The 4th edition Mystic Adept is pretty explicitly able to cast spells and such with her full real magic attribute. Of course, she loses Astral Projection and Perception and a lot of dice, so I don't think it's worth it. But Mystic Adepts aren't nearly as underwhelming as Magician's Way Adepts were.

-Frank
Lilt
Fair enough, debait ended smile.gif
Squinky
My understanding of that example is that the characters magic is limited to 3 when casting and summoning.....What am I not seeing here?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Squinky)
My understanding of that example is that the characters magic is limited to 3 when casting and summoning.....What am I not seeing here?

That the limitation on Magic-related Dice Pools doesn't actually limit your maximum spell force. In fact, your spellcasting or summoning dice pools can end up very large or very small, regardless of what your actual magic attribute is.

As a Mystic Adept, you have three different Magic Attributes:

1. Your Real Magic Attribute. This is the number you actually write down on your character sheet.

2. The Magic Attribute you assigned to Adept Powers - this is how many Power Points you get.

3. The Magic Attribute you assigned to Sorcery and Conjuring - this is how large your dice pools start at when using those skills.

Any thing other than power points or dice pools that is done with your magic attribute uses the real value. So an Adept's powers are all capped at a rating equal to her Magic Attribute, not her Power Points, her magic attribute. Similarly, you suffer physical drain if your spell's force exceeds your Magic Attribute. Not your Magic Attribute's dice pool contribution, your actual Magic Attribute.

-Frank
Abschalten
Just passing some info along, a friend of mine emailed Rob Boyle himself to ask about the Force cap on spells for Mystic Adepts.

Rob said that however many points a Mystic Adept sets aside for Magic is their effective cap for casting spells. If you take 6 Magic points, and you put 3 into PPs and 3 into Magician skills, then you can cast up to Force 6 with your spells.

I think it's bullshit, myself, but this is from the man himself.
Aku
yu think it's bullshit that you are capped by the numbers that you choose? if an adept or caster chooses to take 3 points of magic loss, than they do are stuck with that rating of 3. the punishment of diversification is being spread out.
Siege
Bulldrek or not depends on where you apply the cap.

Obviously one side holds that only Power Points actually put into "Magic" count.

The other side believes that Power Points put into Magic, regardless of whether or not they've been spent on Adept Powers or not is irrelevant.

There is a basis for the second side because Adepts are considered to have an unaltered Magic rating, regardless of points spent. If, for example, an Adept with a Magic Rating of 4 spends her Power Points, she is still treated as having a Magic Rating of 4 for determining power ratings, initiation and so on.

-Siege
blakkie
QUOTE (Abschalten @ Nov 15 2005, 08:29 PM)
Just passing some info along, a friend of mine emailed Rob Boyle himself to ask about the Force cap on spells for Mystic Adepts.

Rob said that however many points a Mystic Adept sets aside for Magic is their effective cap for casting spells.† If you take 6 Magic points, and you put 3 into PPs and 3 into Magician skills, then you can cast up to Force 6 with your spells.

I think it's bullshit, myself, but this is from the man himself.

ARRRGGGG!!! Here i thought they had actually decided to ungimp the Mystic Adept to bring it up to at least the neighborhood of the other awakened. *sigh* Yes, it was marginally vague that it could be interpreted as capping Force too since it's still involved indirectly as a result of using of the skill. It's not like it made them hugely more powerful, just undid the shackles. They still had to fight off Drain, and when you use Edge (which is what you'd often need to do to hit the higher Force cap limit unless you were specialized with foci, or had taken limited Powers) your casting hits aren't limited by Force anyway.

QUOTE
For all other purposes, including the determination of
the maximum level for adept powers, the characterís full Magic
attribute is used.


So did the email actually list all the instances where Magic was applicable? For example would the example Mystic Adept roll 3 dice or 6 dice + Attribute Boost rating when using that power? It's not a Skill, so it would seem to fit there.
Abschalten
I will have to get the actual discourse from my friend. I was just given the summary of it.

Personally, I'm thinking about letting a Mystic Adept's full magic rating determine their maximum Force in my games. I've built a few Mystic Adepts, and I haven't found it to be game-breaking yet. To follow the rules as said by Rob himself, the Mystic Adept still sucks like the Magician's Way Adept in SR3.
Feshy
QUOTE (Abschalten)
Just passing some info along, a friend of mine emailed Rob Boyle himself to ask about the Force cap on spells for Mystic Adepts.

Rob said that however many points a Mystic Adept sets aside for Magic is their effective cap for casting spells. If you take 6 Magic points, and you put 3 into PPs and 3 into Magician skills, then you can cast up to Force 6 with your spells.

I think it's bullshit, myself, but this is from the man himself.

Ug. I hope your friend is wrong.

Magician's Way adepts where pretty pathetic in SR3. But with disgusting amounts of money (or maybe time) and some karma they could power-focus themselves up to starting-level magician status by late game. Of course, that wasn't very useful...

In SR4, there's NO HOPE for mystic adepts, if this is the new canon. Power foci no longer increase the force allowed by your spells.

Force being capped at the total magic rating is the only reason to play a mystic adept. Otherwise, play a mage with cyberware... it's cheaper and more effective, if both reduce the force of your spells. Plus you get full access to astral space.

Of course, I'd have to hear a lot better than a "friend of a friend" or the like to counter the RAW. smile.gif Even then, I'd be house ruling it in my games.
blakkie
QUOTE (Feshy)
In SR4, there's NO HOPE for mystic adepts, if this is the new canon. Power foci no longer increase the force allowed by your spells.

Is that an offical ruling on the Power Foci not affecting maximum Force of spell allowed? Because the wording is somewhat similar, though not exactly the same, as for the Mystic Adept. It does allow some room for interpretation since Magic is indirectly used to limit the hits AND provide dice to a Spellcasting Test.

QUOTE
A power focus adds its Force to all tests in which the magicianís
Magic is included.


It doesn't say it addes it's Force in dice to the pool. Yes that is kinda weenie picking apart of the words, and is a weaker interpretation IMO than saying it does not affect maximum Force of the spell/spirit. But then i'd also say the same thing of limited the Mystic Adept's spell/spirit Force by less than the full Magic Attribute. wobble.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (blakkie)
and when you use Edge (which is what you'd often need to do to hit the higher Force cap limit unless you were specialized with foci, or had taken limited Powers) your casting hits aren't limited by Force anyway.

Not that easy.

The only limit really removed by the use of Edge is the 2x Skill limit of the suggested rule modifications.

When casting spells, the limit of force still applies to the normal pool, only the extra hits of edge dice can exceed it.
Abschalten
Alright, talked to my friend, and here it is. As per request, I cut out some non-essential dialogue between them (nothing to do with rules) and posted only the pertinent information. The quoted text is the friend's question, and the non-quoted text is Rob's response.

--------------------------------------------------

"---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Shadowrun Info <info@shadowrunrpg.com>
Date: Nov 6, 2005 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Shadowrun 4th edition question
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.com

[cut out some introductory crap, on to the meat]

>question I have, though, is about Mystic adept in general - Since they can
>split their spell pool and everything things can get complicated. there is
>a paragraph on the second page of the mystic adept section that says that
>For All purposes, including the limits of Adept powers, the mystic adept
>counts as his max magic. so if he's spent 4 points on Adept abilities, and
>only 2 on casting, does that mean he can Force 6 spells without flinching?

[cut out more background info crap, non-essential]

I'm not sure what you mean about splitting the spell pool ...

Nope, basically the Magic he has allocated towards magician skills counts
for all aspects of those skills. So in your example, the max Force he can
cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain.


:: Rob Boyle ::
Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC
info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com"
Earthwalker
I couldnt find any thing in SR4 rules for touch spells. But I would work it similar to SR3. Where to cast a touch spell in combat you must be close enuff to touch your target and to cast the spell you make an unarmed attack, with +2 dice as you are only trying to get close enuff to mix your aura with theres. If the attack success you cast and take drain. If it fails then you take drain.

The only damage done is for the spell and not damage for unarmed combat.

Its strange rules but work for me.
blakkie
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Nov 16 2005, 05:58 AM)
and when you use Edge (which is what you'd often need to do to hit the higher Force cap limit unless you were specialized with foci, or had taken limited Powers) your casting hits aren't limited by Force anyway.

Not that easy.

The only limit really removed by the use of Edge is the 2x Skill limit of the suggested rule modifications.

When casting spells, the limit of force still applies to the normal pool, only the extra hits of edge dice can exceed it.

Doh, thanks. I should have looked that up when i saw someone mention it before. embarrassed.gif

So indeed it's worse yet. Blah.
Halabis
Also, in the unarmed combat section is has rules for trying to just touch some one. Basicly you get +2 dice to the test. It also says under touched ranged casting that you may attempt to touch the target (as per melee combat rules) as a free action when casting a touch range spell, as it is considered part of the casting. Now all you need is finglerless shock gloves and you have the makings of a true munchkin. =)
Feshy
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Feshy @ Nov 15 2005, 10:49 PM)
In SR4, there's NO HOPE for mystic adepts, if this is the new canon.  Power foci no longer increase the force allowed by your spells.

Is that an offical ruling on the Power Foci not affecting maximum Force of spell allowed? Because the wording is somewhat similar, though not exactly the same, as for the Mystic Adept. It does allow some room for interpretation since Magic is indirectly used to limit the hits AND provide dice to a Spellcasting Test.

QUOTE
A power focus adds its Force to all tests in which the magicianís
Magic is included.


It doesn't say it addes it's Force in dice to the pool. Yes that is kinda weenie picking apart of the words, and is a weaker interpretation IMO than saying it does not affect maximum Force of the spell/spirit. But then i'd also say the same thing of limited the Mystic Adept's spell/spirit Force by less than the full Magic Attribute. wobble.gif

Eh, in my opinion, they have to have one or the other -- either power foci or force capped by total magic. Otherwise, mystic adepts are pretty useless. I'd strongly recommend the later, because the same rules are going to apply to magicians. In a world where a magic 6 starting character can throw a force 11 stunbolt (almost guaranteed to lay someone out), resist only 4 DV stun (starting elf shaman can do that easy, and on the off chance he fails, he can heal himself that 1 or 2 DV)... giving an extra 2 magic rating at chargen through power focuses seems to make the situation that much worse. Force 8 spells, force 16 overcast, from a starting character? No thank you; too high a price for balanced mystic adepts.

However, judging from the mystic adept conversation with Mr. Boyle, power foci may indeed be meant to raise magic in those terms; and that is a scary, scary thought.

On a slightly related note, do the rules specify wether a touch attack is successful if the defender uses unarmed to parry? I can see situations where it should and should not -- blocking a stun baton by blocking the weilder's arm won't give you stun damage, whereas blocking the arm of the mage trying to land death touch on your sorry butt seems poorly advised. Is this codified anywhere?

And thanks for posting that, Abschalten. It's very disapointing, but I'll try not to kill the messenger. wink.gif At least not in front of so many witnesses...
Magus
IIRC in SR3 didn't the power foci goto towards you magic rating? So that you could effectivly cast over your magic rating without suffering physical drain? So if true I would expect that too would be ported over to SR4....???
Azralon
QUOTE (Abschalten)
Nope, basically the Magic he has allocated towards magician skills counts for all aspects of those skills. So in your example, the max Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain.

:: Rob Boyle ::
Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC
info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com"


Emphasis mine:

QUOTE (SR4 p186-187)
For every point of Magic invested in physical abilities, the character gets one Power Point that she can use to purchase adept powers. Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills. For all other purposes, including the determination of the maximum level for adept powers, the characterís full Magic attribute is used. Such a character will not have as many adept powers as most other adepts, nor will they be able to cast spells with the same skill as true magicians.


So what are these "other purposes" aside from the specific one listed?
Feshy
QUOTE
So what are these "other purposes" aside from the specific one listed?


Presumably not spell area of affect or the like, as that would seem to be covered as well. Not the time you can spend out of body, as mystical adepts can't astrally project.

Aha! Warding. It applies to warding.

Mystic Adepts, kings of warding. frown.gif
Abschalten
My thoughts on the touch-spells...

If you are in melee combat and want to get a touch-spell on somebody, you have to at least get a grazing hit on them (your Unarmed attack's hits tie with the defender's hits). Assuming you get that, you can cast the spell on them. The Unarmed attack is just a delivery mechanism for the actual spell itself. As for doing Unarmed damage AND spell damage (bear with me, I'm going to take some liberties with logic for a bit), I would consider that a no-go. An Unarmed attack is a Complex Action, as is casting a Spell. So obviously you can't do both in the same IP.

If you try to hurt somebody with your fists, then you're using a Complex Action to do that. If you're trying to hurt them with the spell, I suppose you ready it before you actually touch them to release it. I guess you can't focus on the spell and hit them with your fists at the same time.

I have a Mystic Adept who is based around Stealth spells and ONLY touch-based combat spells, with adept powers in Improved Ability Unarmed, among other things. He's pretty cool, though he's nearly useless with gimped magical abilities.

A Mystic Adept isn't broken by virtue of letting them cast at a Force of their FULL MAGIC x 2 simply because they already have fewer dice with which to cast. A Mystic Adept with 6 magic and 3 points into PPs still can only use 3 dice when adding Magic to his Spellcasting attempts. Not only are they less proficient at spellcasting, but they have a higher chance to glitch. I think that's more than fair.
blakkie
QUOTE (Feshy)
Force 8 spells, force 16 overcast, from a starting character? No thank you; too high a price for balanced mystic adepts.

Nothing is too high a cost. Ya hear me? NOTHING! mad.gif extinguish.gif

....except maybe that, and the even scarier IMO Summoning Force 8 spirits with only Stun Drain. *sigh*
Abschalten
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Feshy @ Nov 16 2005, 02:11 PM)
Force 8 spells, force 16 overcast, from a starting character?  No thank you; too high a price for balanced mystic adepts.

Nothing is too high a cost. Ya hear me? NOTHING! mad.gif extinguish.gif

....except maybe that, and the even scarier IMO Summoning Force 8 spirits with only Stun Drain. *sigh*

Well at least some good news in that department. I read over the German errata, and they made the "x's" for Reaction "+'s," and made their initiative not so retarded.

Anyway, that's off topic. Back to Mystic Adepts.
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