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Deamon_Knight
Looks like to get my group to try SR, I'm going to have to run it. That's cool, I just don't have a whole lot of experience, so I'm turning to the Dumpshock experts for advice. What pitfalls should a new GM watch out for when running a Shadowrun campaign?

I'm going to run foodfight, then the rest of first run, so I think I have enough material to get my players introduced and see if they like the setting/system. I just don't want my inexperience to sour them on Shadowrun.

Rereading the rules I've got a few specific questions I'm trying to figure out.

SINs? Who has them, and why? More specifically, its implied in the Big Ds prez campaign that he had to get special dispensation from Congress to get a SIN and the accompanying full citizenship so he could run; and that the Awakened Races (Elves, Orcs, Dwarfs, and Trolls) don't get SINs without the same congressional approval (and Dunkelzahn's case is the only approval), they are just probationary citizens. Does this mean that there should be NO professional Orcs/Trolls/Elves/Dwarfs, because they can't get IDs, Licenses, Education, or any official status? This doesn't sound right to me but I can't seem to clear it up.

Looks like the cyber versions of Thermovision and Lowlight are the same price, but Thermo has the fewest vision penalties across the board, why doesn't everyone take thermovision cyberware instead of Lowlight?

More questions as I think of them, thanks!
Critias
SINS - think social security numbers. If you've got one, well, okay: you're a legal citizen, and the system can track you. That's a minus. On the plus side, you can vote (how much do Shadowrunner's care?), you can legally register a firearm, and the police aren't supposed to beat up on you quite as much. It's a toss-up, really. Most GMs assume the players haven't got SINs, and use fake ID's all the time -- that's the easy way to do it. Metahumans can get SINs just fine, it's always been my understanding that Dunkie's laws made it possible for OTHER intelligent metacreatures (Like Dunkie himself, or Sasquatches, or...unicorns? Or whatever) capable of being legal citizens. Elves, dwarves, etc, have pretty much always been capable of it.

Thermo/Lowlight -- just get both. You can use both at once, you pick the better of the two modifiers whenever using both at once, and you're a happy monkey. smile.gif Generally I think people lean towards Low-light for purely OOC reasons; realistically, you can see detail better with Low-light (than with reading heat signatures), you can read with Low-light, for instance, see facial features, hand motions, whatever. There's no hard and fast rules for it that I'm aware of, but which just sounds easier for a human brain to adapt to -- needing less light to see, or seeing everything in heat colors?
Oracle
The SIN (System Identification Number) is the unique ID a country (or, for that matter, a corporation) assigns to each of its (official) citizens. I always compare it to the primary key in a database table named "citizen", which is linked to various other tables. But if one does not work with databases that is possibly not of much help. There is a special kind of SIN known as a Criminal SIN, which is automatically assigned to imprisoned criminals. This one is really a no-good, because everyone checking your SIN will treat you accordingly.

If you have no SIN you do not exist for the system. No social security at all, nearly no civil rights, many areas of a city are a no go for the SINless. Every SIN check a potential danger, and they do happen quite regularly to you, if you do not look right. But of course there is also a bright side. It is much harder for the system, especially for law enforcement, to track someone who is not a SINner. This is why nearly all Shadowrunners are SINless. They try to be ghosts in the systems, living in the shadows, responsible only to themselves and not to Big Brother. It gives them freedom, which is possibly only an illusion.
SL James
Thermographic vision doesn't beat out Low-Light in all fields, and with the Eyelight mod in Man & Machine Low-Light is better than non-natural themal vision at everything, and equals the natural thermo mod for full darkness. Plus, like Critias said, there is a RL distinction that isn't really acknowledged in the core book that you can do some thing using Low-Light (night-vision enhancers) such as reading text or looking through glass (glass is opaque in the IR part of the spectrum) that you can't do with IR sensor (which is what thermographic vision is) even though FLIR cameras can relay some pretty impressive physical details and you can see residual heat impressions, but both have their pluses and minuses. Likewise, some things are reflective low-light that aren't in IR, and some things are IR reflective but aren't in the visual spectrum (There's a whole discussion about the security applications of this little tidbit in State of the Art: 2063).

Dunk was a special exception because he was a non-metahuman sentient. Metas can have SINs, but there are a disproportionate number of them who do not, usually because they were born and raised in the Barrens or equivalent.
Crusher Bob
Also, he was neither born in the US nor resident when the constitution was adopted, making it difficult for him to run for president.
Oracle
I think his place of birth was no problem. President Schwarzenegger was born in Austria...
Crusher Bob
In addition, you need a SIN for anything you would sign a contract for today: renting or buying anything large, getting your utilities hooked up, opening a bank account, and so on.

Of course you can use fake IDs to do all this stuff or get someone with a real SIN (or just another fake ID) to 'front' many things for you..
SL James
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Nov 17 2005, 01:27 AM)
Also, he was neither born in the US nor resident when the constitution was adopted, making it difficult for him to run for president.

He emerged from the earth in Colorado in 2014. I'm sure some lawyer could argue that counts as being born in the U.S.
Oracle
Dunki could simply tell that he is born in the USA. Who would dare to call a great dragon a liar? wink.gif
tisoz
QUOTE (Oracle @ Nov 17 2005, 01:38 AM)
I think his place of birth was no problem. President Schwarzenegger was born in Austria...

Governor Schwarzenegger, not president. And the requirements for governor are not as restrictive as president, usually requiring only residence.

[edit] Senator Schwarzenegger, not President. (Maybe he'll go for the senate in the future just to coincide with SR. smile.gif ) Actually I was thinking senator before. And the requirements for senator are not as restrictive as president, usually requiring only residence. [/edit]
Oracle
I am not talking about the real world. I am pretty sure that in some older sourcebook there was a list of UCAS and US presidents up to 205x. And his name was in it.
Crusher Bob
Think he's described as a senator, not president.
Oracle
Is he? I am not able to find it at the moment.
Crusher Bob
Paranormal Animals Of North America, iirc
fistandantilus4.0
A few laws for being US pres, they have to be born in the US, and they can only serve two terms. If memory serves me, neither of those apply in the UCAS. Could be wrong though.
Crusher Bob
QUOTE

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.

RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Nov 17 2005, 04:45 AM)
Paranormal Animals Of North America, iirc

Also in NAN, Vol. 1, I belive.


Oh, and Crusher Bob, that's all well and good, except for the fact that the United States of America doesn't exist in Shadowrun's time.
tisoz
The story with Big D was the government was wanting to get their hooks into the dragons hoard and income. Dunkie played the IRS, getting a legal SIN out of the deal. When what was left of the USA and Canada merged to form the UCAS, they adopted a clause similar to the one Crusher Bob cited about being a citizen at the time of the formation.

It just so happened Dunkelzahn now qualified for the presidency.

(And due to the rich having the best tax advisers and strategies, the IRS got piddly squat.)
SL James
Well, the grandfather clause is a little more open than that given the fact that Nadja Daviar isn't a natural born UCAS citizen, nor was a resident of either country when they merged.
Critias
You're forgetting sub-clause 943.5, addendum XVII -- Nipples, Dark Brown.
tisoz
QUOTE (SL James)
Well, the grandfather clause is a little more open than that given the fact that Nadja Daviar isn't a natural born UCAS citizen, nor was a resident of either country when they merged.

I won't argue the extent of whatever clause they adopted, I said similar and I don't know what was adopted anyway. But I thought Nadja came out of nowhere with no background cared about beyond her dark, brown nipples.
nick012000
And I'm sure that Ryan Mercury would love to know that you lot are talking about the color of his lady's nipples. wink.gif
Ed_209a
I doubt he will care, since he won't be born for about 15 years.
Clyde
I've never played that Metahumans couldn't have SINs. Even if your elf or ork can't have a UCAS SIN they could still have one issued by the corporation they work for, Cascade Ork Tribe (which would probably sell them for a small fee, or offer it with parking validation) or Tir Tairngire (which wouldn't, but they like elves).

Also, check out criminal SINs.

As for thermographic, it works great. Until you need to read a street sign or that "emergency exit this way" sign or whatever. Low light's got its uses. Depending upon how you run it, Thermo wouldn't be much good for telling one person from another at any kind of distance either. All of which matters little when you're stomping corporate goons or whatever. Besides, picking out the "best" gear is part of the fun of SR - why shouldn't your players get to enjoy that? smile.gif
ShadowDragon8685
Dark brown nipples, mmmm?

*licks lips.* Dark brown, always fine.... smile.gif (Where did you come upon this information, Tisoz?)
tisoz
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Dark brown nipples, mmmm?

*licks lips.* Dark brown, always fine.... smile.gif (Where did you come upon this information, Tisoz?)

On Big D or nipples?
QUOTE (Critias)
You're forgetting sub-clause 943.5, addendum XVII -- Nipples, Dark Brown.

smile.gif Ok, check out the Dragonheart trilogy. I'm pretty sure it goes into a bit of description there.
Deamon_Knight
Thanks for the responses guys, I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking something.

More questions I've been mulling over:

Are modifiers, like vision modifiers, strictly additive?

Example. Johnny the Human gunbunny is firing his smartlinked Ares Predator at a target in short range. It complete darkness, (and for simplicity those are all the factors I'll bring into play) thats base TN 4, minus 2 for the smartlink, plus 8 for complete darkness = 10. So does that then mean that Johnny can spend 8 simple take aim actions and have the TN back down to 2? Or are some modifiers resolved in a specific order?

What Cyberware can you turn on and Off? Bone lacing obviously not, and the text states clearly that Cyber Thermo, ect., can with a free action. The existence of the reflex trigger is pretty clear evidence that wired can't, but how about the VCR?Or the Balance Augmenter? And what is the determining factor?

On the SIN question, any clear reason so many people don't have one? Is everyone born in UCAS territory entitled to one, but only get into the system if they are born in a UCAS hospital?. Obviously Shadowrunners don't want one, so If you were born into upstanding circumstances but fell into the shadows, are you trying to get yours erased, or just hope to wear a ski mask all the time. And why don't paranoid runners simply wear ski masks all the time, on runs? (doesn't fit the Trogs horns maybe?)

For a characters overflow, is it based on natural or augmented body? The way I'm reading it, it does seem to be based on the augmented body attribute, but that feels a bit off somehow.

How do runners get their cred off that one registered credstick the johnson gave them and onto several smaller, more manageable ones they can spread around?

If you have a spell library in data form, what form is it in? Do you have to pay for the library with (rating squared x 1000 nuyen.gif ) then buy (rating squared x 100 megapulses) worth of some memory medium (Optical Memory Chips maybe a .5 nuyen.gif per mp?) or does it come on some form for the original price? If the the Decker is trying to rip a spell formula off the Matrix for his Mage buddy, whats the multiplier on spell formulae? If you place a magical thesis in data form on a knowsoft, is it the chip, then, that is astrally linked to the originating mage? What if the data is transferred to a different medium, or in an act of incomprehensible stupidity, uploaded to the matrix and made opensource?

and Yes, I have to be prepared for these and like questions from my circle of bitter, pedantic friends, who can't just suspend disbelief and enjoy a game! grinbig.gif
Deamon_Knight
QUOTE (Clyde)
Besides, picking out the "best" gear is part of the fun of SR - why shouldn't your players get to enjoy that?  smile.gif



Because between the 5 possible players, we have two shadowrun Rulebooks. We almost got a game going earlier under another friend's GMing, but after 4 weeks of the books migrating around trying to get characters built, I couldn't keep their enthusiasm up, and that game fell through. I'm now trying to put together a dozen or so competent characters of the main archetypes so my players can pick one. Then I can get them to ACTUALLY TRY THE SR SYSTEM, and see if they like it. If not, we can move one; if they do like it I'll have them flesh out the background as they like, and then develop as they like. And if the get cacked right out the gate, I have a backup or two to keep things moving.
Critias
QUOTE
Example. Johnny the Human gunbunny is firing his smartlinked Ares Predator at a target in short range. It complete darkness, (and for simplicity those are all the factors I'll bring into play) thats base TN 4, minus 2 for the smartlink, plus 8 for complete darkness = 10. So does that then mean that Johnny can spend 8 simple take aim actions and have the TN back down to 2? Or are some modifiers resolved in a specific order?


Take Aim actions are limited by a character's related skill, with a cap of 1/2 that skill's worth of Take Aim actions (Pistols of 6, can aim for at most 3 actions, and a -3 tn mod). So, I mean, if Johnny had a Pistols skill (or even an appropriate Predator specialization) of 16, he could aim 'till he was blue in the face (but would need to quite a bit less).

QUOTE
What Cyberware can you turn on and Off? Bone lacing obviously not, and the text states clearly that Cyber Thermo, ect., can with a free action. The existence of the reflex trigger is pretty clear evidence that wired can't, but how about the VCR?Or the Balance Augmenter? And what is the determining factor?


Common sense. VCR? Just don't plug it in -- it doesn't automatically send out a wireless signal to every car within a few feet of you, does it? Balance Augmenter, I'd say is always on (otherwise the penalty, requiring a Will roll to fall down on purpose, would be largely meaningless). Most of these are just common sense based -- if it actively does something, it can probably be told not to do that something. If it has a drawback, odds are good, though, it can't be turned off at a whim.

Just read over the descriptions, they'll normally make it pretty clear, or at least give you a good idea.

QUOTE
On the SIN question, any clear reason so many people don't have one? Is everyone born in UCAS territory entitled to one, but only get into the system if they are born in a UCAS hospital?. Obviously Shadowrunners don't want one, so If you were born into upstanding circumstances but fell into the shadows, are you trying to get yours erased, or just hope to wear a ski mask all the time. And why don't paranoid runners simply wear ski masks all the time, on runs? (doesn't fit the Trogs horns maybe?)


SINs are a hairy issue, and there are benefits and drawbacks to having/not having one. It can go either way, and often does, even within a small group of 'Runners. Don't sweat it too much, just keep track, as GM, of who wants to have a legit one and who doesn't.

And, well, yes. Many Shadowrunners do wear ski masks, on the job.

QUOTE
For a characters overflow, is it based on natural or augmented body? The way I'm reading it, it does seem to be based on the augmented body attribute, but that feels a bit off somehow.


I beleive it's augmented Body rating -- but remember that a lot of cyberware, etc, only adds to Body for damage soaking, specifically (even a Troll's dermal plating, for instance), so it's not as bad as you thought.

QUOTE
How do runners get their cred off that one registered credstick the johnson gave them and onto several smaller, more manageable ones they can spread around?


Credstick readers, maybe, or just credstick to credstick interfaces -- much like pocket secretary's, it's hard to pin down exactly what a credstick can and can't do. It makes sense for the magical electronic credit card/IDs to be able to interface with one another and transfer money over, right? So why not just say it's possible (it might even be, by canon, I don't remember).

QUOTE
If you have a spell library in data form, what form is it in? Do you have to pay for the library with (rating squared x 1000  ) then buy (rating squared x 100 megapulses) worth of some memory medium (Optical Memory Chips maybe a .5  per mp?) or does it come on some form for the original price? If the the Decker is trying to rip a spell formula off the Matrix for his Mage buddy, whats the multiplier on spell formulae? If you place a magical thesis in data form on a knowsoft, is it the chip, then, that is astrally linked to the originating mage? What if the data is transferred to a different medium, or in an act of incomprehensible stupidity, uploaded to the matrix and made opensource?


And....this one I'm leaving to someone else. Sorry. I got nothin'.
Deamon_Knight
Thanks Critas, but I do have to wonder if you aren't running the matrix over my shoulder. You have been the first to respond to both parts of this post even though its midnight where I am. Get some sleep man! =)

Aside, that does remind me to note I am using SR 3 rules. What do you mean Cyber Bod mods only add to the damage resistance test? I know they specifically don't apply for the rolls to avoid being maimed by deadly wounds, where else don't these mods apply?
tisoz
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
For a characters overflow, is it based on natural or augmented body? The way I'm reading it, it does seem to be based on the augmented body attribute, but that feels a bit off somehow.

When designing a character it says use the augmented rating unless otherwise noted. When determining overflow boxes, no exception is noted, so go with augmented.

QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
How do runners get their cred off that one registered credstick the johnson gave them and onto several smaller, more manageable ones they can spread around?


The decker can have a credstick reader added to his cyberdeck, or the Johnson could bring multiple credsticks, after all, how does he know exactly how much he is going to have to fork over until forkin' over time rolls around?

QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
If you have a spell library in data form, what form is it in? Do you have to pay for the library with (rating squared x 1000 nuyen.gif ) then buy (rating squared x 100 megapulses) worth of some memory medium (Optical Memory Chips maybe a .5  nuyen.gif per mp?) or does it come on some form for the original price?


Data form is up to the character, and I include the form in the library cost, not extra. But that's just me. If you buy a skillsoft, you don't pay for the soft then a chip worth "x" Mp.

QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
If the the Decker is trying to rip a spell formula off the Matrix for his Mage buddy, whats the multiplier on spell formulae?


Who knows? A fudged & kludged together way would be determine the value of the spell formula from the gear section, then go to Matrix page 50 and decide what type system they are swiping it from and roll based on the table until you have data worth the same or more. Then see how much memory it took up.

QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
If you place a magical thesis in data form on a knowsoft, is it the chip, then, that is astrally linked to the originating mage? What if the data is transferred to a different medium, or in an act of incomprehensible stupidity, uploaded to the matrix and made opensource?


Yes, both, all.
TheNarrator
Cybernetic mods to the Body score (i.e. bone lacing, dermal plating/sheath) don't apply to Body tests to resist toxins or disease, to Body-based skills (like Athletics, Parachuting, etc.), and I would presume test to resist fatigue. They only count for the tests to soak damage.

EDIT: A bioware mod to body (from the superthyroid gland) would count towards all those things. It's considered a change to the character's "natural" attribute score.
Critias
QUOTE
Thanks Critas, but I do have to wonder if you aren't running the matrix over my shoulder. You have been the first to respond to both parts of this post even though its midnight where I am. Get some sleep man! =)


I get up about 11pm and go to work around 12:30. Third shift, for me -- hitting a few forums and such is how I wake up and get re-acclimated to looking at a computer screen, before heading to my cubicle. No loss of sleep, here, just weird hours.

QUOTE
Aside, that does remind me to note I am using SR 3 rules. What do you mean Cyber Bod mods only add to the damage resistance test? I know they specifically don't apply for the rolls to avoid being maimed by deadly wounds, where else don't these mods apply?


And SOME cyber mods might apply -- but there are many that don't. A lot of body-influencing cyberware (dermal plating, bone lacing, that sort of thing) is just sort of "armor for your body." If you've got some kevlar plates grafted to your pecs, great; it'll help against incoming bullets, right? But how's that gonna help you when someone slips a roofie into your drink, or sticks a syringe into the side of your neck?

Some stuff only helps with soaking damage, and it'll normally be stated pretty clearly in the write-up for that piece of gear (IE, it'll state "+2 body for damage soaking purposes only") or it will be noted under the write-up for the Body test itself (IE, when it discusses rolling Body to heal wounds, or something like that, it will specify "unaugmented Body score," or similar).

Pay special attention to any bioware that augments Body -- much more commonly than with cyberware, bioware counts as "natural" Body, for a lot of tests. Likewise, magical augmentations (Adepts, for instance) will normally count as "natural," so would help in situations that having metal bones isn't a big bonus.
Fortune
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
If you place a magical thesis in data form on a knowsoft, is it the chip, then, that is astrally linked to the originating mage? What if the data is transferred to a different medium, or in an act of incomprehensible stupidity, uploaded to the matrix and made opensource?


Yes, both, all.

Note that technically it wouldn't actually be a Knowsoft, as they are 'skill chips'. It would be a Datasoft, as it contains raw data, but no actual ability to use it.
Deamon_Knight
QUOTE (Fortune)

Note that technically it wouldn't actually be a Knowsoft, as they are 'skill chips'. It would be a Datasoft, as it contains raw data, but no actual ability to use it.


Thanks Fortune, I was thinking of a thesis in a form like a scuplture, with a simsense model so you could touch it, although that still isn't a "knowsoft" so I'm just nuts.


On knockdown tests, do wound modifiers apply? How about stun modifiers from a stun baton or similar weapons? How about the same to the wound test, to see if a wound will heal without medical attention?


I'll have to pay closer attention to the discriptions of cyberware, but let me ask this: When a directed combat spel,l like powerbolt, targets the body attribute, I assume that includes cyberbonuses, correct?


Any advice on what are really good published SR adventures that I should look at letting my runners try?
Hoondatha
Well, there's always Harlequin's Back...

Hehehe.
Velocity
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
Any advice on what are really good published SR adventures that I should look at letting my runners try?

Dreamchipper's a classic and offers a good mix of old-fashioned investigation and a variety of interesting fights.

Eyewitness is well-written and asks PCs to solve a mystery. It went over really well with my group and allowed me to introduce some interesting recurring NPCs. There's also a couple of ethical dilemmas which create good roleplaying possibilities.

Finally, Silver Angel--an oldie but goodie--is a nice, clean, straighforward datasteal. Ideal for rookie gaming groups; I've run it three times with three different groups and it's never failed.
Dog
Make sure you familiarize yourself with as many of the sourcebooks as you can. It's the richness of the sixth world that makes SR really good.

For starters, I recommend New Seattle. There are also a bunch of not-yet-fleshed-out adventure scenarios in there.
Maybe not Harlequin's ("Screw it, you're dead.") Back, but the first Harlequin campaign, despite its production flaws, would make good intro runs.

BTW It would be interesting to create a thesis in the form of a knowsoft (or for that matter, a skillsoft) wouldn't it?

About SINs. I don't think they ever really nailed down the specifics of how SINs work, although there are a few decent overviews published. Don't get too tangled up in the legal stuff. Or make up your own rules. indifferent.gif
Deamon_Knight
Now for the real mindtwisters, questions about Astral interaction?
QUOTE (SR3 p.173)

Speech and other sounds are as easy to hear from the astral plane as they are in the physical world.


So, two projecting mages can talk to each other, and a manifested mage can talk and be heard on the physical plane, but does the quoted rule also mean an unmanifested mage can overhear the conversation between two mundanes on physical plane? (if so, that seems mighty useful)

Say an Astrally perceiving Character and and An Astrally Projecting Character square off in Astral combat. If the Astrally Perceiving (Dual Natured) Character is unarmed, He uses he Unarmed Combat skill against a TN 4, and he deals (Str) M Stun to the Astrally Projecting Character. If the Astrally Perceiving Character had a Stun Baton instead, can he use his Clubs skill in the same way and deal 6S Stun, or a Sword and (Str+2) M, to the Astrally Projecting Character?

Using the Astral Attributes for the Projecting Character, he would resist this damage with Willpower + any astral pool dice, and he obviously has no armor to reduce the TN.

OTOH, the Astrally Projecting character can use and armed combat skill or sorcery to deal Charisma M Stun, or if he has a weapon focus, Charisma + weapon Damage. So the real question becomes, how does the Astrally perceiving character resist this damage?

SR3 says worn armor does not apply, ok, straightforward. It then goes on to say that natural armor (like a trolls) does apply..... OK, so what happens if my troll adept has Aluminium bone lacing and a second level of Dermal Armor? does he resist with BOD+1 For his dermal plating, or does he get the benefit of his second level of dermal plating and the aluminium bone lacing and/or does he get any bonus from the additional armor?

I think this rule is meant to apply to creatures like Trolls, or paracritters who have cyber-like bonuses that aren't cyber, it just throws me that this is referred to as "Armor" here, and that worn armor is specifically excluded, but not cyber.

How does this fight end? If either character takes deadly damage, thats all she wrote. If the Projecting character takes Deadly Stun he is disrupted, slams back to his meatbod unconscious, and has to check for magic loss. What happens if the perceiving character takes deadly stun? Is he also disrupted and has to check for magic loss?

If you cast a mana spell, say manabolt, at an astral object like a focus and deal Deadly Damage, the enchantment is destroyed, but is the physical component of focus affected? If not, could you cast a physical spell at the focus and destroy both the enchantment and the physical component?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
SR3 says worn armor does not apply, ok, straightforward. It then goes on to say that natural armor (like a trolls) does apply..... OK, so what happens if my troll adept has Aluminium bone lacing and a second level of Dermal Armor? does he resist with BOD+1 For his dermal plating, or does he get the benefit of his second level of dermal plating and the aluminium bone lacing and/or does he get any bonus from the additional armor?

I think this rule is meant to apply to creatures like Trolls, or paracritters who have cyber-like bonuses that aren't cyber, it just throws me that this is referred to as "Armor" here, and that worn armor is specifically excluded, but not cyber.

I think the stock disclaimer about implants that someone's paid essence for counting as part of their body would apply here too.
Deamon_Knight
So you think the Implanted impact armor would count as well?
tisoz
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight @ Nov 19 2005, 09:47 PM)
Now for the real mindtwisters, questions about Astral interaction?
QUOTE (SR3 p.173)

Speech and other sounds are as easy to hear from the astral plane as they are in the physical world.


So, two projecting mages can talk to each other, and a manifested mage can talk and be heard on the physical plane, but does the quoted rule also mean an unmanifested mage can overhear the conversation between two mundanes on physical plane? (if so, that seems mighty useful)

Correct.

QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
Say an Astrally perceiving Character and and An Astrally Projecting Character square off in Astral combat. If the Astrally Perceiving (Dual Natured) Character is unarmed, He uses he Unarmed Combat skill against a TN 4, and he deals (Str) M Stun to the Astrally Projecting Character. If the Astrally Perceiving Character had a Stun Baton instead, can he use his Clubs skill in the same way and deal 6S Stun, or a Sword and (Str+2) M, to the Astrally Projecting Character?

No, the stun baton or the sword has no astral presence.

QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
Using the Astral Attributes for the Projecting Character, he would resist this damage with Willpower + any astral pool dice, and he obviously has no armor to reduce the TN.

He could have an Astral Armor Spell, mystic armor, or natural armor.

QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
OTOH, the Astrally Projecting character can use an armed combat skill or sorcery to deal Charisma M Stun, or if he has a weapon focus, Charisma + weapon Damage. So the real question becomes, how does the Astrally perceiving character resist this damage?

As normal with Body and pool dice. Astrally perceiving doesn't change your attributes.

QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
SR3 says worn armor does not apply, ok, straightforward. It then goes on to say that natural armor (like a trolls) does apply..... OK, so what happens if my troll adept has Aluminium bone lacing and a second level of Dermal Armor? does he resist with BOD+1 For his dermal plating, or does he get the benefit of his second level of dermal plating and the aluminium bone lacing and/or does he get any bonus from the additional armor?

QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
I think the stock disclaimer about implants that someone's paid essence for counting as part of their body would apply here too.


QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
How does this fight end? If either character takes deadly damage, thats all she wrote. If the Projecting character takes Deadly Stun he is disrupted, slams back to his meatbod unconscious, and has to check for magic loss. What happens if the perceiving character takes deadly stun? Is he also disrupted and has to check for magic loss?

The perceiving character is not projecting so is not subject to disruption, they are subject to the rules of the physical plane.

QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
If you cast a mana spell, say manabolt, at an astral object like a focus and deal Deadly Damage, the enchantment is destroyed, but is the physical component of focus affected?

Mana spells can affect magical targets, the focus itself is magical, so yes.

QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
If not, could you cast a physical spell at the focus and destroy both the enchantment and the physical component?

You can not cast physical spells while astrally projecting.
mmu1
QUOTE (Critias)
And SOME cyber mods might apply -- but there are many that don't. A lot of body-influencing cyberware (dermal plating, bone lacing, that sort of thing) is just sort of "armor for your body." If you've got some kevlar plates grafted to your pecs, great; it'll help against incoming bullets, right? But how's that gonna help you when someone slips a roofie into your drink, or sticks a syringe into the side of your neck?

I've actually always felt that - logically speaking - things like dermal sheathing actually ought to apply to Body tests to stage down toxins that use certain delivery systems (basically, anything that has its power reduced by 1/2 impact armor, like darts, capsules, splash weapons) - and that perhaps at least some of the bone lacings should apply to any of these toxin delivery systems that use darts or needles. If the toxin is affected by an armor jacket you're wearing, it also ought to be affected by armor you have grafted onto your skin - and a dart that might inject a toxin could glance off or break on a bone that had been coated in armor.

Though inconsistently designed rules, like dermal plating/sheathing and orthoskin being very similar conceptually but completely different mechanically, or some bone lacing actually providing armor mods that technically apply to anything - even stuff that simply needs to break the skin - don't help the matters any.

RunnerPaul
QUOTE (mmu1)
I've actually always felt that - logically speaking - things like dermal sheathing actually ought to apply to Body tests to stage down toxins that use certain delivery systems (basically, anything that has its power reduced by 1/2 impact armor, like darts, capsules, splash weapons) - and that perhaps at least some of the bone lacings should apply to any of these toxin delivery systems that use darts or needles. If the toxin is affected by an armor jacket you're wearing, it also ought to be affected by armor you have grafted onto your skin - and a dart that might inject a toxin could glance off or break on a bone that had been coated in armor.

Though inconsistently designed rules, like dermal plating/sheathing and orthoskin being very similar conceptually but completely different mechanically, or some bone lacing actually providing armor mods that technically apply to anything - even stuff that simply needs to break the skin - don't help the matters any.

By the time the needle glances off or breaks on bone, it's already inside your body. Unless you're keeping your bonelaced bones on the outside for some strange reason.

As soon as the needle hits the body and starts to decelerate, the toxin that it is supposed to deliver is carried down the needle into the body by its own inertia. Even if the tip of the needle were to ricochet on a bonelaced bone, and bounce straight back out of the body, the inertia of the toxin means that it's still wanting to travel forward and will remain in the body even as the needle around the toxin is backing out of the body.
mmu1
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Nov 21 2005, 04:19 PM)
By the time the needle glances off or breaks on bone, it's already inside your body. Unless you're keeping your bonelaced bones on the outside for some strange reason.

As soon as the needle hits the body and starts to decelerate, the toxin that it is supposed to deliver is carried down the needle into the body by its own inertia. Even if the tip of the needle were to ricochet on a bonelaced bone, and bounce straight back out of the body, the inertia of the toxin means that it's still wanting to travel forward and will remain in the body even as the needle around the toxin is backing out of the body.

Well, I guess most characters with titanium lacing do keep it on the outside, then, since it provides a bonus to ballistic and impact armor ratings?

And if all you need for the drug to have a full effect is for the needle to enter the body, then why do the rules specifically let impact armor reduce the power of certain toxins by 1/2 of its rating?

Clearly, the provisions for varying the effect of toxins based on whether something was present to interfere with the delivery already exist... and a needle prevented from penetrating as deeply as it normally would by dermal sheathing, or one breaking on synthetic bone lacing would not deliver the dose in an optimal way.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (mmu1)
Well, I guess most characters with titanium lacing do keep it on the outside, then, since it provides a bonus to ballistic and impact armor ratings?

Bullets are asumed to do damage by massive trauma to the body's tissues, including bone tissues. Bones covered in a titanium mesh are better at resisting this damage.


QUOTE
And if all you need for the drug to have a full effect is for the needle to enter the body, then why do the rules specifically let impact armor reduce the power of certain toxins by 1/2 of its rating?

Clearly, the provisions for varying the effect of toxins based on whether something was present to interfere with the delivery already exist... and a needle prevented from penetrating as deeply as it normally would by dermal sheathing, or one breaking on synthetic bone lacing would not deliver the dose in an optimal way.


External impact armor slows the needle down before the tip has pierced the skin, causing the dart to deliver a portion of it's dose outside of the body, hence the reduced power.

By the time dermal sheathing or bonelacing get to affect the needle, the needle is entering or has entered the body already.
mmu1
Um... Dermal sheathing is on the inside of the skin, now? Does that include the kind with built in scanners and ruthenium?

Second, a needle getting stopped or deformed by bone lacing might be inside the body, but arguing that this has no effect is kind of like arguing that a dart from a tranquilizer gun that hit your cheek and broke on a molar or got stuck in the jawbone would have the same effect as if it hit an inch or two lower, right next to the various blood vessels in the neck - because it entered the body already.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (mmu1)
Um... Dermal sheathing is on the inside of the skin, now?

No, it is the skin.
mmu1
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
QUOTE (mmu1 @ Nov 21 2005, 04:17 PM)
Um... Dermal sheathing is on the inside of the skin, now?

No, it is the skin.

It's a less bulky and obvious version of Dermal Plating, with some ability to repair itself. It's not Orthoskin.
RunnerPaul
Still, by the time it's interacting with the dart, it's too late.
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