Full Version: On a lame note, cyberskulls....
| QUOTE (jervinator) |
| If you run Synthetic limbs, you won't have the capacity to run that much armor without sacricing other things, especially on the skull. And if you wander around with OBVIOUS heavy armor like Robocop, you will have other problems. Besides, I go by each limb, head, front and rear torso. That is 7 locations, and 4 points on each arm is only 8 total. Eight armor divided by seven locations equals an average of 1.142857... that is only +1 armor overall |
Which is exactly why armor should be added, not divided.
Cyberlimbs already suck. Why make them even worse?
In my opinion averaging your cyber-armor like that is equivalnet of averaging your normal armor. Do it to a camo suit (8 ballistic) and you have only one point. Makes no sense, and I don't see why it should suddenly change when it concerns cyber-limbs, since to me, they should be much sturdier than flexible armors.
That's why I up the limit to 8 and reduce the bulk. It's still tricky/expensive to max out, but when you consider that, like Troll skin, it is in addition to any worn armor, it works out fairly well.
As for averaging normal armor, I was under the opinion that the armor ratings listed reflect both their sturdiness and their coverage; that's why helmets add the way they do.
While cyberarmor itself may be sturdier than 'normal' armor, I believe that it is possible to damage a cyberlimb even if the attack doesn't penatrate. I mean, if you wear a bulletproof vest and then take a few rounds from a big gun, you might still get some cracked ribs. Sure, metal is tough, but there are some delicate mechanisms in the limb. You don't need to put a big hole in it to damage it. Ever hear of HESH ammo?
If you add the armor ratings and play as-written, you will allow Armor 22 humans and if they got the nuyen for that, then another 12 for the Full Body Armor with Helmet.... why should Humans get 34 points of armor when the GMC Banshee only gets 18? And it doesn't take as much money as one would think either; 90K
for the cyber, plus 6,600 for cyber-armor, doubled for Alphaware to reduce the Essence loss from 6.25 to 5.0, plus 7K for the worn suit...202,200 . Considering the equipment costs other archetypes suffer, that ain't bad.
Under my rules, the absolute best you can get is Armor 8; 4 on the skull and 8 everywhere else = ( (8*6) + 4 ) = 52 /7 = 7.43, and I figure that, if they are willing to go to that extreme, then I'll give 'em that extra 0.07 points of armor before I round.
As for averaging normal armor, I was under the opinion that the armor ratings listed reflect both their sturdiness and their coverage; that's why helmets add the way they do.
While cyberarmor itself may be sturdier than 'normal' armor, I believe that it is possible to damage a cyberlimb even if the attack doesn't penatrate. I mean, if you wear a bulletproof vest and then take a few rounds from a big gun, you might still get some cracked ribs. Sure, metal is tough, but there are some delicate mechanisms in the limb. You don't need to put a big hole in it to damage it. Ever hear of HESH ammo?
If you add the armor ratings and play as-written, you will allow Armor 22 humans and if they got the nuyen for that, then another 12 for the Full Body Armor with Helmet.... why should Humans get 34 points of armor when the GMC Banshee only gets 18? And it doesn't take as much money as one would think either; 90K
for the cyber, plus 6,600 for cyber-armor, doubled for Alphaware to reduce the Essence loss from 6.25 to 5.0, plus 7K for the worn suit...202,200 . Considering the equipment costs other archetypes suffer, that ain't bad.Under my rules, the absolute best you can get is Armor 8; 4 on the skull and 8 everywhere else = ( (8*6) + 4 ) = 52 /7 = 7.43, and I figure that, if they are willing to go to that extreme, then I'll give 'em that extra 0.07 points of armor before I round.
Enchancments don't cost extra money, it's accesories = )
Yeah, you can get to some crazy armor ratings, I agree. But in order to get there you have to give up a lot of capacity, making you pretty much a one-trick pony since you won't be able to fit more in. Also, getting enough cyber-limbs to do so excludes you from most of the good bioware and wont allow you to get any inititive pass boosters. You can later of course, which massive upgrades to beta...but my point still stands, yes you can get a crazy high armor, but thats gonna be your thing...
You can replace 5 of your 6 limbs, and have enough essence free to get rt two synaptic accelerator...
| QUOTE (jervinator @ Nov 26 2005, 10:26 PM) |
| If you add the armor ratings and play as-written, you will allow Armor 22 humans and if they got the nuyen for that, then another 12 for the Full Body Armor with Helmet.... why should Humans get 34 points of armor when the GMC Banshee only gets 18? And it doesn't take as much money as one would think either; 90K for the cyber, plus 6,600 for cyber-armor, doubled for Alphaware to reduce the Essence loss from 6.25 to 5.0, plus 7K for the worn suit...202,200 . Considering the equipment costs other archetypes suffer, that ain't bad. |
And you just sold how much of your soul to the Machine Gods? Lessee here...full limbs, torso, skull... 6.25 Essence Loss
So you MUST go alphaware with some of the limbs, which means all that armor cost in nuyen is DOUBLED along with EVERYTHING ELSE in the limb.
So actually, it's REALLY fuggin' expensive to get that huge armor. You're selling all of your essence for it. And you know what?
You're not invincible.
34 armor vs. Panther Assault Cannon. Panther has 5 AP, so your armor becomes 29. 29/3 is 9.666. Round up to 10. Panther's damage value is 10.
So, assuming someone barely nicks you, statistically, you can take a panther round.
If the person shooting the panther is at all competent, you're going to take damage.
And the person with the Panther has more Initiative Passes than you do, because HE didn't sink all of his essence into his vatjob body. You did. He's also going to be better at almost everything, except passive defense.
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| You can replace 5 of your 6 limbs, and have enough essence free to get rt two synaptic accelerator... |
But you cant afford them....
| QUOTE (Gothic Rose) | ||
And you just sold how much of your soul to the Machine Gods? Lessee here...full limbs, torso, skull... 6.25 Essence Loss So you MUST go alphaware with some of the limbs, which means all that armor cost in nuyen is DOUBLED along with EVERYTHING ELSE in the limb. So actually, it's REALLY fuggin' expensive to get that huge armor. You're selling all of your essence for it. And you know what? You're not invincible. 34 armor vs. Panther Assault Cannon. Panther has 5 AP, so your armor becomes 29. 29/3 is 9.666. Round up to 10. Panther's damage value is 10. So, assuming someone barely nicks you, statistically, you can take a panther round. If the person shooting the panther is at all competent, you're going to take damage. And the person with the Panther has more Initiative Passes than you do, because HE didn't sink all of his essence into his vatjob body. You did. He's also going to be better at almost everything, except passive defense. |
In addition, you are an "armored pedestrian" -- The limbs are full of armor, so they get no stat upgrades. As your whole body is cyber limbs, that means your physical stats are all 3.
If you average all the limbs, there is no reason EVER to get armor -- just get body upgrades. They cost less and take up half as much capacity. The only time armor *might* come into play is if the maximum of +7 body isn't enough for you for some reason.
| QUOTE (Feshy) |
| [QUOTE=Gothic Rose,Nov 27 2005, 02:01 AM] If you average all the limbs, there is no reason EVER to get armor -- just get body upgrades. They cost less and take up half as much capacity. The only time armor *might* come into play is if the maximum of +7 body isn't enough for you for some reason. |
Except that body is averaged too, so that's not obviously the way around things.
And as to why armor takes up more room, it's my opinion that armor rating is better than body rating. Armor rating is used to figure out if a round does physical or stun damage. Armor in your cyberlimbs stacks with worn armor, so you can get good armor and decent limb armor, with orthoskin on your un-cyber limbs, and you are taking panther assault cannon shots and only taking stun.
Also, when the limb itself gets hit, it uses it's own armor rating and body rating. (called shots, that's all that's visible, gamemaster says it falls on your arm, whatever.) Also, I'd say that in the case that the limb itself is hit, and the armor makes it stun, there is no effect. (How do you stun metal, after all?)
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Nov 28 2005, 03:02 PM) |
| Also, I'd say that in the case that the limb itself is hit, and the armor makes it stun, there is no effect. (How do you stun metal, after all?) |
Actually, I've been thinking about that lately. I presumed that nonliving objects are simply immune to stun; if you take a tazer to a rock, it doesn't care.
However, bare fists do stun damage. I can punch a block of styrofoam and do damage to it very easily. Trolls need to be able to bash down doors (it's in the job description) without having to pick up a pocketknife to do it.
Of course, the flipside is that I can cast Stunbolt at a tree and somehow eventually blow it up (or make it terminally drowsy, or something).
GR - I am aware of the essence costs, and I also mentioned that it needs to be Alphaware to reduce the Essence Loss to below 6.
Feshy - In my game, Armor takes up half the capacity of the printed, official rules, so you can have your cake and eat it too.
PP - The way I see it, you can 'stun' metal because Stun damage comes in two basic forms.
1) Blunt impact over a wide area - This may dent/bend things slightly or knock stuff around inside the limb. While it doesn't have the same EXACT effect as hitting meat, I feel that for game purposes, the effects are similar enough especially since cyberlimbs have a sense of touch and therefore can feel pain which can lead to physiological shock.
2) Electricity - Zapping anything containg electronic components with electricity is bad, whether that circuitry is technological (cyber) or biological (nervous system).
Azralon - I think that that's why GMs sometimes gotta make their own rules
Feshy - In my game, Armor takes up half the capacity of the printed, official rules, so you can have your cake and eat it too.
PP - The way I see it, you can 'stun' metal because Stun damage comes in two basic forms.
1) Blunt impact over a wide area - This may dent/bend things slightly or knock stuff around inside the limb. While it doesn't have the same EXACT effect as hitting meat, I feel that for game purposes, the effects are similar enough especially since cyberlimbs have a sense of touch and therefore can feel pain which can lead to physiological shock.
2) Electricity - Zapping anything containg electronic components with electricity is bad, whether that circuitry is technological (cyber) or biological (nervous system).
Azralon - I think that that's why GMs sometimes gotta make their own rules
| QUOTE (jervinator) |
| Azralon - I think that that's why GMs sometimes gotta make their own rules |
h++
... And it makes me wonder why I spent the money.
Electricity already has it's own rules for effecting cybernectics.
Actually, the h++ has mostly to do with issues I had going from SR3 to SR4. I saw no reason why one of my players should go from the equivalent of Medium Security Armor to more armor than a Great Dragon (I know, cyberarmor ain't hardened, but still...).
Hopefully, as SR4 supplements get released, it'll go h++ -->h+ --> h, which is where we played in SR3, and one of those (hopefully few) house rules would be allowing certain types of stun attacks to break things. Until then, I gotta patch some holes until the professionals can make actual repairs.
Hopefully, as SR4 supplements get released, it'll go h++ -->h+ --> h, which is where we played in SR3, and one of those (hopefully few) house rules would be allowing certain types of stun attacks to break things. Until then, I gotta patch some holes until the professionals can make actual repairs.
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