Cannot be purchased using standard character creation because of it's availablity of 16, please tell me that's a freaking typo.

What's so wrong with that?

Considering that the cyber-skull basically takes essence and gives you nothing in return, the fact that you can't get it at character generation is just silly.

Do you think availabilities are oriented at the in-game value of items?

You could look at it this way... What sort of non-combat situations would require a full skull replacement? Any individual that would need a full head replacement would probably (in 99% of cases) probably need new gray matter inside it, too. The skull probably is hard to get because it's a very specialized bit of ware, not the sort of thing you get installed 'just because'. I mean, an arm or leg? You can lose those in factory accidents. A torso? Maybe a car accident or a bad fall makes you need to get a replacement - it's less common, but believable.

But what kind of accident makes you need to buy a new head, in all honesty? That's a pretty rare kind of accident.

Remember... availability only matters if you're buying an item illegally.

to some degree, but we're talking about prosthetic parts, not illegal cyber.

in the case of torso's and skulls it's not even a real prosthetic, but mainly replacing area's with a shell.

Any cyber is illegal to buy if you buy it from an unlicensed vendor or a vendor who sells it for purposes not covered by his licence - which is precisely what any SINless will be doing. I think in this case availability is a balance for both game reasons and the fact that there just aren't very many cyberskulls produced every day.

And remember... availability only matters as much as your GM makes it. If he says sure, what does it matter?

it matters if you want to play a cyberskulled troll for a upcoming convention =p

regardless of how common or not, I wouldn't think a cyberskull would warrant the same availablity of a cortex bomb... even if it's got a f tacked onto the availability.

Just prep your argument early - just because your character is SINless now doesn't mean he was when he had the replacement.

Which is open to miles and miles of abuse, however for one or two pieces of silly gear that isn't horribly abusive and you feel adds to the character, go for it.

-Siege

Well, like, if someone ripped your jaw off... your grey matter is just fine.. .and the trauma to the body is probably on par with losing your other 4 limbs... (meaning, if treated right away, you might not bleed to death, or go into shock) and with awesome medical coverage, the technology exists to give you a new one (note: no partial head replacements - so you'd have to get yourself a nice legal/available cyberskull)...

So, I could sort of see a good reason to have one legally... if a very rich person is horribly mauled in the face... and can no longer function... its better to drop the big money on a new head than to die... or live without a lower jaw.

The reason why cyberskulls have high availability is succinctly explained in this thread http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=ghost+rider .

Yeah, really. I mean, I can do that with normal skulls and those things are a dime a dozen.

Wait: Standard ammo costs 2 nuyen per shot. So I guess they're 24 nuyen a dozen (plus labor).

But imagine if the Halloweeners got ahold of some.

in SR3, the advantage of a cyberskull was that it negated called shots to the head, AND reduced stress to headware by 2 (possibly by 3 with the right upgrade, making the headware stress-proof). in SR4, all it does is add one to the physical track, and provide a small amount of capacity. the capacity is too low to justify the skull by itself.

so with the rules as is, the skull is mostly a thematic item. and then they go and make it unavilible for concept characters.

Exactly, hell the cyberskull was never exactly a point of uber munchkinism heh.

But a great point for loonies! We can recreate ghost rider! (and his horde of flaming skull drop bears who are riding segways behind him) Bwahahahaha!!!

Yeah, spread the word!

Heh, if I were the GM, and you wanted to have a flaming skull for a head, I'd give it to you for free

there IS a flaming skull in SR cannon. Go read the novel 'Tails you Lose'. theres a fixer named hothead, who has a fire come out the top of his cybered head.

in sr3, not sure about 4th, it was quite disconcerting, social mods, and very nice intimidation mods if you were going that route = )

The only real game advantage to the cyberskul is that it gives you 1 more box of damage on your physical damage track, like all cyberlimbs.

One thing we have decided in our game is that cyber-limb armor adds up just like dermal plating etc. Meaning you could concievably get 2 armor on your head and look like a freak, but at least add +2/2 to your armor rating. I know in Shadowrun 3 you divided it, but it says nothing about this in Sr4, just attributes. That might sweeten the deal.

That sounds like munchkninism to me; chucking common sense and reality out the window in order to take advantage of the poor literal wording of the rules.
Unless it's a called shot to the head, the full +2 would NOT apply in any of MY games.
Two points on the head is too low a bonus over too small an area to warrant any appreciable game-effect. +2 on the torso might be enough area to get +2 if I feel generous enough to assume most shots are aimed at the center-of-mass, and limbs would contribute 1/2 (at best) but.....

/me shakes head

*sigh* I know sounding like a knowitall bitch in my first post isn't a good way for a lurker to come onto the scene, but some things need to be corrected here.

1. At least two people said that 'the only' thing a cyberskull is good for is an extra damage box, fire resistance, whatever. Not quite. A cyberskull (obvious) has a Capacity of 4. That means you can put ANY applicable cybernetic device which takes Capacity up to that rating in, essence free. That includes cyberlimb armor, strength enhancements (headbutting) body enhancements (headshots), commlinks, smuggling compartments, etcetera. In fact, while this isn't specifically covered in the rules, I'd probably even allow sensors(if a 1-capacity sensor fits in an RFID tag, I think 4 can fit in a cyberskull) and cyberweapons (2 spurs on

2. Cyberlimbs are not just prosthetic replacements. For the shadowrunner on the go, they're better than the real thing. Same goes for a cyberskull. A runner's most valuable posession is his brainmeats - that's where the skills go(and the pleasure centers are). (s)He wants to protect that investment. Of course, for some, it may be more warranted than others.

3. Since this sort of modification has very military, illegal applications, and as was mentioned before, that it's unlikely that someone's gonna need a replacement HEAD who's really able to pay for it, make the availability of 16(no F) a little more palatable. After all, it's hard to find a doctor able (and willing) to cut all the skin off your head, peel back the top sections of bone, and replace large parts of the most complex and important section of your skeleton with plasteel.

And that's my rant. Nice to meetcha.

[EDIT] Almost forgot, but lookslike someone else noticed the helmet thing, too. Armor on your head kinda does stack with armor on your chest... it's in the rules.

The probem with that is how cyberlimb attributes and armor are handeled. A cyberskull can never be as good at preventing bullets from causing harm than a real skull is.

Very limited application. You don't gain much from an incredibly agile... neck. Might apply a modifier to Dodge tests on *called* head shots only (don't shoot cyberskull guy in the head) or Escape Artist tests to get your head out of a pipe. Not worth the money, is the general theme.

You really think there is a agility or strength stat for a part of your body that doesn't move on it's own?

Skull also has a nice advantage of allowing yourself to use the capacity and put in a commlink and datajack into the head (albiet you can do this with other pieces also)

I don't even understand where people are getting the idea that armor doesn't just stack up from limb to limb. The rules for averaging values fall under the writeup for Body, Strength, and Agility enhancements. Armor has a separate entry and its own rules that don't say a blessed thing about being divided by anything.

-Frank

Well, my interpretation of Skulls is this: They don't have stats. Simple as that, don't average them in or allow stat mods on them, it just dosen't make sense.

A person would get a skull for coolness factor, some armor, or slapping in gadgets and whatnot.....

This does bring up the question I've always wondered about with cyberlimbs. A cyberarm (for example) is made of plasteel, which I assume is a lighter, comparable strong version of construction-grade stainless. Its muscles are myomeric fibers, and its skin is most likely plasteel or aluminum plate. Is *your* skin strong as aircraft aluminum (which the cyberarm's better be, for 15 G's)? I know mine isn't. Bones as tough as steel? Nope. Muscles as strong as myomer bundles, the stuff they use to make BattleMechs (not canon, I know, but still FASA.)? Uh-uh. I understand Agility not being up to snuff, since the control software and hardware would have to be customized - in fact I'd say the average cyberlimb wouldn't even have Agility as high as 3. But even a tough-as-nails troll's skull isn't as hard as plasteel. I haven't run a character with a cyberlimb in a couple years, but I don't believe this 'starts at human average' thing has anything to do with realism.

Agreed. I'm cool with agility and strength adjustments, but body is wacky. It should start at 6 as far as im concerned, or be given a barrier rating type deal.

Heres my list of gripes with limbs as they stand.

1. Why don't limbs do Physical damage like bone density and bone lacing? They should in my opinion do the same as them. Game balance I guess, but I think a big metal fist will hurt as much as a flesh fist with titanium lacing in it?

2. Simply said, metahuman issues. I call houserule.

3. Not enough capacity in my mind. Opinion here I know.

4. I thought I had more but I guess not, man I must be tired or something.

Edit---

Knew I had more: Capacity issues like a commlink taking 2 capacity in an ear or a whole dang arm, dosen't make sense. Also, lower arms and hands/feet: In my mind attribute boosters should cost less for them as they are listed normally as 1 capcity for a whole arm. A hand has 4 capacity, why should a strenght enhancement for that little area take a whole point? Seems wrong to me.

Also, there is a hazy area for half-limbs anyway. If a person gets on and plays by the rules, he probably won't be able to get that lower arm to match up with his augmented bodys attributes, which makes no sense to me since they make a big deal about elecronics being minaturized and whatnot.

*nods.* In addition, you have the fact that Agility in a cyberlimb would most likely be governed by software at least as much by hardware - so does Agility take up less space? The entire ruleset for cyberlimbs is downright confusing, and likely to get moreso if it's houseruled to oblivion. Personally I plan on treating each cyberlimb that my characters (or more likely NPCs, since only 2 of my 6 current players AREN'T essence-dependent) have individually, with lots of realism-and balance-review.

I was merely stating my opinion. Maybe munchkinism was a bit strong, but I'll explain my reasoning a little better, and possibly have my mind changed if someone here can convince me otherwise.
The way I see it, helmets have the same construction as heavy armor, and yet only add a fraction of that armor's rating. Therefore, I assume that shields and helmets can probably take more abuse than their low ratings show, but their effective rating is reduced to account for their reduced coverage. If it truly stacked, then helmets would give double the rating of one's armor, but instead it only adds ~20-25%. Considering the odds of getting hit in the head on a random shot, that sounds about right to me.
However, considering the material bulk involved and the small capacity of cyberlimbs, I see cyberlimb armor is only 100% effective versus attacks on the limb it's mounted on. If you want enough cyberskull armor to warrant a +1 full-body bonus, you'll need at least +4 armor, probably +5, and that would make your head as big as a motorcycle helmet unless you want to hollow it out and use that space to mount the armor.

An understandable arguement. But compare it to a camoflage suit (made of much more flexible material and probably some liquid-gel type armor I guess) which is 8/6 (?). As I stated this armor is much thinner and weaker sounding than ballistic plates attached to a metal arm (In my opinion).

By your logic, (and I am not trying to be insulting here) if someoen called a shot to a spot on that armor, it would be able to resist with it's full armor rating (which is proabably the rules too, but follow me here).

I think it really gets it's armor rating by proving over-all body coverage, so apply that thinking of mine to a guy with four limbs and 2 points on each, and that gives him an 8 armor. Much more feasible to me than a thin armored jacket giving it.

the real secret, is to put the brains in the butt, no one makes a called shot to the butt but dennis the menace, and then it's only a bb gun!

Camo suits are flexible to an extent, but are not as flexible as, say, a t-shirt. Armor Clothing is 4/0 because of it's flexibilty. Impact armor requires a bit of bulk and while that bulk is minimal for clothing, it is quite substantial when you consider the bulk of the average Human or Elf.
Of course, this assumes that you give a care about looking at least semi-normal. And not all of it's bulk is the plating. The internals have to be beefed up a little too. It would suck if the impact from a bullet hit disconnected the power supply to the 'muscles'.
However, I do question two things about the armor. It seems to take up even more capacity than I care for, and it's limited to 4 levels. In my game, we halve the capacity (Rating x 1) and double the limit to 8 points. The plating and reinforcement are tough enough for their volume to allow for that.
Now, the problem is that the cyberarmor gets the same rating regardless of whether it's a called shot or not. It seemed easier to average the ratings as in previous editions than stack them, especially since I am used to it by now.

Not for a math g33k like me! It's easier for me to calculate the average (in my head) than to retrain my brain to do otherwise.

Yeah, if you are doubling your ability to get cyber armor, then good gawd don't let it stack with those rules. (8 on each limb would be horrendous).

But anyway, wouldn't doubling the armor equal out the same anyway? In example: Guy with the normal allowed 4 points gets 2 on each of his cyberarms (gotta leave room for toys) for a total stacked of 4.
Guy with your rules gets 4 on each arm and averages it between them and gets a total armor bonus of 4?

If you run Synthetic limbs, you won't have the capacity to run that much armor without sacricing other things, especially on the skull. And if you wander around with OBVIOUS heavy armor like Robocop, you will have other problems.

Besides, I go by each limb, head, front and rear torso. That is 7 locations, and 4 points on each arm is only 8 total. Eight armor divided by seven locations equals an average of 1.142857... that is only +1 armor overall