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Aku
ok, so the question came up to me about the ammo capacity of a internal magazine (the remington 950 to be exact) and wether or not the internal magzine holds 5+ a chambered round, or if that 5 includes a round for a clear chamber (in effect, a reload with a clip chambered being 4 rounds). But i'm not sure.
Arethusa
I always assumed the "clip" sizes referred only to the magazine, not including the chamber.

Of course, strictly speaking, I rather doubt anyone who's ever had anything to do with developing SR's weapons or technical details could tell you what a magazine or a chamber is, so if you're into pure canon, don't worry about any of this to begin with.
dog_xinu
Generally speaking it means X+1, or in this case 5+1. Most people dont run around with a round in the chamber in a shotgun (or atleast none of the people I know). But we would chamber the round prior to entering combat situation.

I always say whatever the book says is the clip/magazine but we dont load any more than that. Ie clip size + 1 for the chamber.

To each his own.
Ed_209a
Yeah I would agree. If the gunbunny is willing to carry a few loose rounds to top up his mag after charging the weapon. and willing to tell me each time, X+1 ammo is no problem
Solstice
QUOTE (dog_xinu)
Most people dont run around with a round in the chamber in a shotgun (or atleast none of the people I know).


I do. What's the point of having it on hand it your not ready? wink.gif
Arethusa
There's plenty of point, actually.

Keep a shotgun loaded down one or two with a sidesaddle or some loose rounds. You load the shotgun with buck, bird, or slugs depending on what you think is most likely to give you cause to use it and you load the spare rounds in case something else comes along.

For that matter, there's plenty of reason to keep a rifle loaded down one just for safety. Negligent discharges aren't fun, and you can't depend on the safety. There's arguably little need to top off long arms, as any situation in which you'll need one and be able to get to one, you'll have time to rack/charge/chamber it as well. Only weapons that should generally have a round chambered are defensive weapons (ie pistols).
otomik
It doesn't always occur to players but when it does it's not really something you can argue against. Whats more tricky is ancillary things like does the pistol fire with the magazine removed (most do except S&W autos), it would be a pretty cool dramatic scene to let players know they can keep an extra in the pipe if you showed someone hand over their magazine then shoot them right in the face with the forgotten chambered bullet.
brohopcp
QUOTE (otomik)
"it would be a pretty cool dramatic scene to let players know they can keep an extra in the pipe if you showed someone hand over their magazine then shoot them right in the face with the forgotten chambered bullet."

I guess it could work with people who know nothing about guns, but then why would they be having you remove the magazine?

Anyway, SR isn't RL and even RL isn't RL sometimes, so good luck.
otomik
QUOTE (brohopcp @ Nov 21 2005, 12:36 PM)
Anyway, SR isn't RL and even RL isn't RL sometimes, so good luck.

there's really no reason to think about mag capacities since it won't come up in game, combat reloads are very rare in SR. I never saw enough differences in individual weapons, they could have all been generic for the entire class of weapons with maybe some flavor text describing popular brands and their reputation, mottos, etc.
Aku
ok, so next question, the same player also asked what action it would be to manually load a single into the chamber. He said a former GM made it a simple...
Critias
Check under the rules for Revolvers. I think the rule is something like (Quickness x Rounds) for one Simple Action.
Austere Emancipator
A Simple Action is probably a good idea. Consider it a kind of "Ready Weapon" action (sr3.107).

Critias: I think he means working the slide to load a single cartridge into the chamber of a pistol. (Nevermind, it's the Remington 950.)
Aku
Critas, i'm guessing you're thinking of ther ammo table in the gear section, in which it's a complex action for anything other than a clip fed weapon.
Critias
Wow, yeah. Just looked it up. (Quickness) rounds for a Complex Action. Huh. I guess I'd say you could pop in a single round, for a Simple Action (assuming a Quickness of 2 or higher).
Edward
Doesn’t it say you can manage fully ˝ quickness as a simple action
Raygun
If you mean cycling a manually-operated repeating firearm (i.e. a bolt action, pump action, lever action, single action revolvers, etc...) to load a cartridge into the chamber from the magazine, my rule has always been a Simple Action to operate the action, then another to fire. This is what I consider "SS mode" to mean.

If you mean loading a magazine (repeating bolt/pump/lever actions, double action revolvers, etc...), that would be Quickness*Rounds per Complex Action.
RunnerPaul
Huh. And here I always thought to put the round in the chamber of a clip fed weapon you'd have to put the clip into the gun, and chamber the round. You then take the clip back out, top it off with a round so the clip's full again, and put it back in.
ShadowDragon8685
You CAN do that. You can also pull the slide back with a clip out, insert a round, and let the slide go forward again. Depending on the make and model of the gun, this may be easy, difficult, fook-fook difficult, liable to clamp a finger in the mechanisms, or downright impossible. Usually possible, though.

It's easier just to chamber a round and then perform a tactical reload. or if you're preparing for a fight and you have plenty of time, yes, chamber it from the clip, top the magazine off, and put the mag back in.
otomik
one of the things open slide Berettas are designed for (other than flawless ejection, forever) is that I can chamber a round directly, hit slide stop, slap in mag. voila 18 round capacity wink.gif

QUOTE
You CAN do that. You can also pull the slide back with a clip out, insert a round, and let the slide go forward again. Depending on the make and model of the gun, this may be easy, difficult, fook-fook difficult, liable to clamp a finger in the mechanisms, or downright impossible. Usually possible, though.
yes, usually difficult and annoying as well as totally unadvised by the maker and experts.
Arethusa
Just what Beretta are you talking about? Even the largest of the open slide Berettas (92) only has a 15 round mag. 15 + 1 != 18. If you want 17 + 1, it's going to have to be a Px4.
Solstice
QUOTE (otomik)
yes, usually difficult and annoying as well as totally unadvised by the maker and experts.

what? I do it all the time. If your familiar with the gun it's not a problem and the +1 can make all difference. Practice.
Raygun
QUOTE (otomik @ Nov 21 2005, 10:56 PM)
one of the things open slide Berettas are designed for (other than flawless ejection, forever) is that I can chamber a round directly, hit slide stop, slap in mag. voila 18 round capacity  wink.gif

Not real difficult to pull off with a 1911, either. Only you get a max of 8-9 rounds (15 if it's a full-size double stack).

QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
Huh. And here I always thought to put the round in the chamber of a clip fed weapon you'd have to put the clip into the gun, and chamber the round. You then take the clip back out, top it off with a round so the clip's full again, and put it back in.

For the record, I was talking about firearms with internal (read: non-detachable) magazines, such as the aformentioned Remington 950.
otomik
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Just what Beretta are you talking about? Even the largest of the open slide Berettas (92) only has a 15 round mag. 15 + 1 != 18. If you want 17 + 1, it's going to have to be a Px4.

the patent for a magazine with follower that gives about +2 rounds
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...57&RS=5,386,657

The company Mec-Gar of Gardone Val Trompia, Italy (same town as Beretta HQ, go figure!)
http://www.mec-gar.it/index.htm

The 17 rounders are flush fit for the fullsize, sticks out a half an inch in my 92SB Compact. Mecgar is about the only mag company i trust other than OEM, keep up with the Joneses, get yours today talker.gif
Critias
"Keep one in the pipe for the jackers and the dope fiends," says a cop's sig line on another forum.

"Keep one in the pipe for the trogs and the beetle-heads," says one of my characters, in an SR version of the same sound advice.
Arethusa
QUOTE (otomik)
The 17 rounders are flush fit for the fullsize, sticks out a half an inch in my 92SB Compact. Mecgar is about the only mag company i trust other than OEM, keep up with the Joneses, get yours today talker.gif

I stand corrected. I was not aware of those. Almost makes the brick size weapon seem sensible.
otomik
QUOTE (Arethusa)
I stand corrected.  I was not aware of those.  Almost makes the brick size weapon seem sensible.

say what? that's a pretty bold statement when you consider it's the same size as a 1911, perhaps you're thinking of Ruger Autos.

here's a pick of a Beretta 92SB Compact
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/beretta92sb-c.jpg

Arethusa
I'm mostly just joking. The 92 has a reputation for being oversized, especially around the grip, and the 92 compact has a reputation for being an oxymoron.
otomik
92 is 8.5'' in length, same as 1911
92 Compact/Centurian is 7.8'' in length, same as a Browning Hi-Power

Maybe you've held a Browning Hi-Power, I think that size is about the largest you'd want in a 9mm. Though 9mm also comes in +P and +P+ and there's always the mod 96 in .40S&W. Berettas are a little bit thicker than 1911s and BHPs, I chose those examples because they are common and considered well-designed classics. I've been sanding down my grips in certain areas, but all double stacks are less than ideal in this area (possible exception of the Browning BDM).

this photo compares all the different sizes of 92s
http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/privat...e/guns/f143.jpg

It looks like the new Beretta 90TWO will feature a lighter more skeletonized frame and adjustable grip (I love rounded trigger guards!)
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/age...anger/cid_X.jpg
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (otomik)
Maybe you've held a Browning Hi-Power, I think that size is about the largest you'd want in a 9mm.

My perception is probably clouded by not ever having to bother with concealing a handgun and having mostly dealt with airsoft USPs and Desert Eagles and the like, but the HP felt almost too small for me to take seriously -- that's when I was firing it, mind you; I'd take any gun aimed at me very seriously.
Snow_Fox
size is relative. Graves' browning hi-power is plenty big neough for me. My fav is my S&W .357 which is also pretty big.

I only recently got a carry permit and find my fear's about concealing it in SR are true in RL. women's clothing is not designed to allow that sort of space. Snug fitting suit jackets look great but there is a noticable bulk ruining the line of the jacket. The best I've found is if I wear a boyfriend jacket and a shoulder holster. It's the advantage of a bust, guys tend not to notice the hollow under my arm, that's fine for casual burt business or black tie asin't happening. I may look great in my lbd but there is NO room to hide even my barreta .380
otomik
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
size is relative. Graves' browning hi-power is plenty big neough for me. My fav is my S&W .357 which is also pretty big.

I only recently got a carry permit and find my fear's about concealing it in SR are true in RL. women's clothing is not designed to allow that sort of space. Snug fitting suit jackets look great but there is a noticable bulk ruining the line of the jacket. The best I've found is if I wear a boyfriend jacket and a shoulder holster. It's the advantage of a bust, guys tend not to notice the hollow under my arm, that's fine for casual burt business or black tie asin't happening. I may look great in my lbd but there is NO room to hide even my barreta .380

how tall are you?
what make and model .380? it's possible you could find something slimmer
what type of shoulder holster are you using? it's possible a vertical shoulder holster might serve you better, there's also different fabrics if the holster itself is too bulky
what part of the gun is "printing" or "printing" the worst?

it might be more difficult, yeah people tend to notice women's curves more, all the more reason to carry.

non-gun bunnies always say "S&W .357, Beretta .380, Colt .45, etc." and leave us wondering what they're talking about. The S&W might be tricky to indentify, sometimes you have to swing out the cylinder and it's on the portion in front that was concealed by the cylinder (not a huge revolver guy, bear with me).
jrm549
QUOTE (Raygun)

For the record, I was talking about firearms with internal (read: non-detachable) magazines, such as the aformentioned Remington 950.

I've never liked this idea of "non-detachable" magazines in the sport rifles. They are almost non-existent now, as they are not really practical, and also more costly to repair if necessary, and of course they don't allow for extra loaded clips.

In all reality, the M(agazine) designation is probably only used to suggest that they take longer to load (due to covers, caps, hatches, whatever) than assault rifles and others with clips that just drop out.

Of course, the underbarrel tubes on shotguns are internal and would have to be loaded round by round (unless you had removable tubes), but I don't think magazines in sport rifles should be like that.

Now for the point: Both magazine-fed sport rifles and magazine fed shotguns could have an extra round chambered (but you'd be depending on a safetey then) with a full load in the magazine.
In the case of the magazine fed rifles, it's because the magazine in reality is probably still removable out the bottom, and in tube-format magazine rifles (the old Winchesters and such) and shotguns, you would insert an extra round through the side/bottom (depending) after the round has been chambered. (again, you'd have to depend on a potentially unsafe safety)

Raygun
QUOTE (jrm549)
QUOTE (Raygun)

For the record, I was talking about firearms with internal (read: non-detachable) magazines, such as the aformentioned Remington 950.

I've never liked this idea of "non-detachable" magazines in the sport rifles. They are almost non-existent now, as they are not really practical, and also more costly to repair if necessary, and of course they don't allow for extra loaded clips.

Unfortunately I don't have my book with me at the moment and I'm not sure about SR4, but SR3 states specifically that magazines (m) are internal (read: non-detachable). According to the rules, the Remington 950 uses this type of device for storing cartridges.

Aside from that, I have to wonder where you're getting the information you have about internal magazines and how you're classifying it. The vast majority of rifles marketed for sporting use these days include non-detachable magazines, particularly bolt action (internal box magazine) and lever action (tubular magzine) rifles. Internal magazines are extremely practical for what they're designed to do. They generally hold an acceptable number of rounds (generally 2-7, depending on the cartridge) are also not anywhere near as prone to being damaged as detachable magazines being internal parts of the rifle, and they're not terribly costly to repair, consisting generally of a stamped sheet steel box, a leaf spring and a follower. There's absolutely nothing odd about having a non-detachable magazine on a sport/hunting rifle.

QUOTE
In all reality, the M(agazine) designation is probably only used to suggest that they take longer to load (due to covers, caps, hatches, whatever) than assault rifles and others with clips that just drop out.

You can read about exactly what "magazine" means in relation to Shadowrun in the main book of whichever edition you're using. Again, I don't have a book with me to give page references, though I'm thinking it will be somewhere around page 270 in SR3. I'm sure someone else here can provide the exact page number for you.

QUOTE
Of course, the underbarrel tubes on shotguns are internal and would have to be loaded round by round (unless you had removable tubes), but I don't think magazines in sport rifles should be like that.

I think that would depend on the sport rifle in question. Many are going to use an internal, individually-loaded box magazines because they're A) simple, B) cheap, C) effective, and D) because it makes politicians happy. However, today, there are several semi-automatic hunting rifles that include detachable box magazines. Generally speaking, they represent a very small number of the types of rifles that are marketed for sport or hunting use.

QUOTE
Now for the point: Both magazine-fed sport rifles and magazine fed shotguns could have an extra round chambered (but you'd be depending on a safetey then) with a full load in the magazine.

True.

QUOTE
In the case of the magazine fed rifles, it's because the magazine in reality is probably still removable out the bottom,

You can very easily chamber an extra round in a rifle with an internal box magazine as well. I've done it from time to time with my Remington 700. You simply load the magazine to capacity (through the action, one round at a time, as usual), then drop a round on top of those that have been loaded into the magazine, press the uppermost round in the magazine down a bit so that the bolt cannot feed it, then push the bolt forward, chambering the free round. In my rifle that would be 4+1 capacity.

QUOTE
and in tube-format magazine rifles (the old Winchesters and such) and shotguns, you would insert an extra round through the side/bottom (depending) after the round has been chambered. (again, you'd have to depend on a potentially unsafe safety)

True.
blakkie
The only hunting "rifle" i ever used that had a built in magazine only was a .22 rim-fire semi auto that had a tubular underbarrel magazine. In many ways it was a PITA, and eventually it even had problems feeding into the semi-auto receiver. It wouldn't push up the round hard enough and the slug would get a severe gouge as the bolt tried to push it into place while it was still too low. This of course was a function of age/use, but it would require repair of the built in mechanism rather than just replacing a detachable box.

EDIT: I should say i have seen others that are built-in only, just not used them myself.

I have used and seen a number of bolt-action rifles that were set up to either use the built-in box or you could open up the built in box and remove the guts so you could you could use the detachable box.

Now keep in mind that a lot of the hunting i did was based from a vehicle (truck), and having the detachable box made it easy to empty all the rounds from the weapon to get back in the vehicle and then quickly have a fully reloaded weapon when you stepped back out.
Raygun
QUOTE (blakkie)
I have used and seen a number of bolt-action rifles that were set up to either use the built-in box or you could open up the built in box and remove the guts so you could you could use the detachable box.

Interesting. Which rifles would those be?

There are plenty of rifles, particularly bolt-actions, with internal box magazines that have hinged floorplates (including mine) which allow the user to open the magazine from the bottom in order to unload it quickly. However I don't recall having seen one that can also use a detachable magazine without considerable modification.
jrm549
QUOTE (Raygun)
I have to wonder where you're getting the information you have about internal magazines and how you're classifying it. The vast majority of rifles marketed for sporting use these days include non-detachable magazines, particularly bolt action (internal box magazine) and lever action (tubular magzine) rifles.

I agree with almost all of your points (and most of them didn't really disagree with mine, so much as point out that M and C are way simpler than reality, but work for the game), except I the tubular magazine thing still bugs me. There just aren't may high power rifles made like that anymore (a shame sortof, since I like the look and the lever action that often comes hand in hand is a lot of fun), so I don't think that they are likely what is being suggested in the SR books.
Regarding the internal non-detachable magazines, Browning especially, but many others have been designing them for years to come out the bottom and also be accessible through the top. It just makes far more sense. (They don't simply drop out the bottom though like clips, they swing out one a 'flap', and then unclip.)

Anyways, I'm sure we could go back and forth forever listing different guns that do different things and we'd both be right and could prove a lot of different points, but my main one is that this is the future, Shadowrunners want quick and efficient, and there's no reason to not have this option..... We also got way off track. Guns can almost always hold the book listed capacity +1. (excluding break action and cylinder obviously smile.gif )
Raygun
QUOTE (jrm549)
I agree with almost all of your points (and most of them didn't really disagree with mine, so much as point out that M and C are way simpler than reality, but work for the game),  except I the tubular magazine thing still bugs me.  There just aren't may high power rifles made like that anymore (a shame sortof, since I like the look and the lever action that often comes hand in hand is a lot of fun), so I don't think that they are likely what is being suggested in the SR books.

I think the tubular magazine is one of a few types of internal magazines they refer to on SR3.280. Tubular magazines may not be terribly common magazine types anymore, but there certainly are plenty of "sport rifles" made today that use them and in terms of Shadowrun, those rifles could quite correctly use the rules for magazines (m).

In the case of the Remington 950, which was the rifle in question originally, it is described as a bolt action rifle (SA mode notwithstanding), and it uses a magazine (m). Because bolt actions have historically utilized spitzer-shaped bullets (bad news in a tubular magazine), the 950 logically would use a box magazine, like pretty much every Remington bolt action rifle ever made. Remington currently makes bolt action rifles with three different kinds of magazines: a "blind" box magazine that can only be accessed through the action (or by disassembling the rifle), a hinged floorplate box magazine (as mentioned in my last post), and a detachable box magazine ("clip"). To take the rules as literally as possible, the 950 would use a blind box magazine.

That said, a rifle with that kind of magazine may not be the most logical choice for a shadowrunner, depending on the circumstances. But then, a sport rifle isn't likely be any shadowrunner's first choice anyway. (Though I think it would certainly be reasonable to allow any of the above magazine types as a house rule.)

QUOTE
Regarding the internal non-detachable magazines,  Browning especially, but many others have been designing them for years to come out the bottom and also be accessible through the top. It just makes far more sense. (They don't simply drop out the bottom though like clips, they swing out one a 'flap', and then unclip.)

True, Browning does make a kind of "semi-detachable" box magazine. Though I would say that the sense of it is questionable compared to other magazine types.

QUOTE
but my main one is that this is the future, Shadowrunners want quick and efficient, and there's no reason to not have this option.....

I agree. But they also have the option not to choose a sport rifle.

What I don't agree with are the assertions that internal non-detachable magazines are "almost non-existent", are "not really practical" and are "costly to repair if necessary". They're still very prevalent, very practical and inexpensive, on sport rifles.
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