Well, we do have Hamburg - a city partially flooded by a storm tide in 2011. So far acceptable.
Problem: Contrary to popular belief Hamburg is not located on the North Sea coast but several kilometers up the Elbe river and large parts of the city are considerably above sea level.
Yet for some strange reason the water did not retreat after the flooding. Instead parts of the city stayed submerged. Among them areas that lie higher in elevation than un-flooded areas nearby...

But don't get me wrong - I like the "Venice of the North" Hamburg setting and am willing to suspend disbelief.
I generally like the AGS. Elements I don't like are Saxony (military dictatorship born in the EuroWars turned pseudo-monarchy, complete with racism, militarism and arrogant nobility), Westphalia (an arch-conservative catholic de facto-theocracy in an AFAIK today predominantly protestant area?) and the "Mini-Tír" Pomorya.

That's just it, though. We don't want recaps or shockwaves we learn about at a later time. We don't want to advance our storyline one direction only to recieve a new book down the line that shows what we missed, forcing us to retroactively change what our players thought was canon.

This 2 different canon crap is annoying, and has been since FASA. I owned the Germany SB and I rather enjoyed it because it kept me informed. However, since then there has been some sort of smokescreen on european information (up until SoE, of course). It just gives the american player the illusion that Fanpro D is trying to have its own canon.

Now that all publishing is under Fanpro and, as you said, both American and German developers/freelancers are working together; I would have thought this weird seperation of canon would have stopped.

Fanpro D has proved my hopes were wrong.

Have you actually ever approached one of the German writers? Have you ever talked to Christian Lonsing or the freelancers at a con? Judging by your post, I'd say no. I've only ever been to two events in Germany and the one thing I can say without a doubt is that the people involved in SR do care very much about the game.

And the fact that the setting and history remained unaltered should be telling. one thing is to change the core mechanics of the game, another entirely is to say "all the stuff you've been playing off and background information you've been integrating in your games for the past 10 years is retroactively different, sorry."

This is a false comparison - Schockwellen did not retroactively change the setting, quite to the contrary in fact. It took Proteus canon and ran with it. In truth at the end very little has actually changed at all. Anyone who hasn't read the campaign will end up using Proteus in exactly the same way as someone who has - and remain oblivious to the changes at the top. Plus ça change...

This isn't to say that it isn't possible to evolve the current setting, or even that it isn't desirable. I for one would like to see elements of the German setting changed (for the better) over the next few releases. What I am saying is that it shouldn't be done retroactively.

Okay then let me put it this way. When has this ever happened? When has FanPro US ever released a " new book down the line that shows what we missed, forcing us to retroactively change what our players thought was canon" regarding German material?

Even Schockwellen doesn't do that. Americans have been privy to glimpses of the events in Schockwellen which are fully integrated in the storyline though not the backplot (which would require retroactively explaining everything from the Sandmann files to what the hell is the story behind Nachtmeister and his FBV). To the writers' credit the end result of Shockwaves leaves Proteus apparently unchanged to the outside world - meaning it remains a mysterious corp with a hard to pin down powerbase and agenda.

How? By providing an expanded location description of Hamburg, as added value for buying the German version of the book rather than the English one? By catering to their fanbase by providing them with a full German Runner Haven locationwriteup rather than a condensed version? As someone who cooperated on, helped develop and edit the English version, all I can say is: bulldrek.

For German material? Can't recall that ever happening.

But the CFS has gone back and forth several times and is now a complete contradictory mess.

The PCC conquered Los Langeles.
But, the population of the PCC is only 9 million, slightly more than half the population of that city alone.

Tidal waves somehow turned LA into an island, despite the fact that the San Fernando Valley is a valley.

The headquarters of one of the AAA megacorps is in LA, in the CFS.
But, LA got let go because it was economically unimportant and is supposedly no longer in the CFS at all.

---

At this point, Los Angeles is such a mess that there's nothing you could do with it or say about it that wouldn't be contradicting canon somewhere. That strikes me as worse than any of the details the Deutchlanders are going on about.

-Frank

Uh, they are about to do it. Lets say I use material of the US version of Runner Havens and I choose to run in Hamburg. Anything I do as a GM is now subject to info that I am missing in the German version.

This is incorrect. What you won't get in the English version is district by district outlines, a breakdown of the local government, or the names of all the interesting local haunts, but you will get all the major plots, the major players and get enough of a district and location overviews to make the setting playable. All content has been developed by the same writer and the FanPro D material contains no hidden twists or German-only plots just local colour and minor details.

You could demolish the entire thing and build a giant parking lot. That would probably be an improvement.

Heh. But we already did that.

-Frank

I'd say the changes have already started:.
- The corps conquered Berlin leaving only a small part of the city in anarchy (Chrom & Dioxin, 1996).
- The troll king went missing (DidS2, 2001).
- SURGE brought chaos to Westphalia exposing a rift between hardliners and moderates within the German Catholic Church (DidS2) and now the leader of the hardline faction, Cardinal Heeremann, has died (Die 6. Welt, 2005).
- Marienbad left the AGS and joined the Czech Republic (SoE, 2004).

If further books bring change in Saxony (a revolution maybe or disastrous military action against Poland?) and Pomorya is somehow removed/reformed I'm totally satisfied.
That way change demanded offgame could be brought ingame, at the same time demonstrating a dynamic living game world.

I like how you mention it has to be German material, specifically, to qualify for this argument. Because, well, if you just said "regarding material" there, you'd be leaving yourself wide open for people to line up and spout off about how many settings and timelines have been retroactively changed, making us backpedal to explain inconsistencies.

*cough* Tir Fucking Tairngire *cough*

Maybe because I was specifically replying to Superbum's comments (as indicated by the fact that I quoted him) regarding FanPro D material and nothing else.

And if you read my post again you will find that even if I were to widen my reference your Tir crack doesn't stand up because in that case there is no canon to be retroactively changed.

Speaking of Pomorya, what exactly is up with the place? Any of the resident Germans care to shed some light on this demi-Tir since I don't have access to SoE currently, and well from the sounds of it the German language version is a lot more detailed? Thanks.

So I will not be getting any of the fluff that is core to supplying the correct feel to my players. Thanks.

That's not what I said, but feel free to interpret it whichever way you like.

The new location book format will focus and detail two major sprawls per book (note: FanPro D is expanding Hamburg exceptionally for this one to provide a core German setting. The German language chapter is unlikely to be ready for translating or even finished when Runner Havens goes to press). To round off the book and offer alternative settings and plots, several other sprawls are given a necessarily less detailed look. These other sprawls are meant to broaden horizons, offer alternative backdrops and open a greater spectrum of possibilities.

All I can say is that, if the Shadows of writeups for smaller countries weren't descriptive and atmospheric enough for you, then the backup sprawls chapter probably won't work for you either. If on the other hand, you liked Lisbon in SoE or Indonesia in SoA then you'll probably like this part of the book.

You got me wrong on that: i never wanted to change the past of the german setting. All i want is a change of the current setting. History is moving forward, so could the setting. We already had some changes in the setting (as M STIC mentioned), so why isn't it possible to overthrow the current setting and install a new one? I.e. a new revolution sponsored (indirectly) by Lofwyr which brings a new facist police-state to Germany. Maybe the northern half of the country resists that change and has a new governemt of its own. But please get rid of all the small countries, which give the ADL the impression of a would-be-north america.

Why another Tir-state? Why? Because America got its state and even those bloody irish, so why not Germany? Everything the USA has is cool. They have an elven state? We can as well!

It's an economic backwater, it's too small and it's ridicoulus.

And you got me wrong if you understood I was saying that there won't be change. We've been seeing gradual change and I'm sure it will continue.

Personally I've got a lot of faith in the current German crew, a lot of the changes I've seen have been for the better and the discussions I've had with them are promising. The reason I've been mentioning writing in or starting a petition, is that unless you make your voice heard (in a reasonable and constructive manner) change might not be in the direction you (meaning the fanbase unsatisfied with the current status quo) are looking for.

How does that not apply to Tir Na Nog?

It has 3.7 Million People. Total. That's smaller than such cities as New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, DC, San Jose, Philidelphia, Dallas, Boston, Detroit, Miami, Houston, Atlanta, Seattle, and Phoenix. It's slightly larger than Minneapolis, but only barely. The only reason anyone gives a crap what happens in Tir Na Nog is that it is apparently filled with Immortal Elves, so people who want to see Earthdawn easter eggs can pore through the Tir writeup looking for them. From any practical social, economic, or military standpoint it's completely irrelevent. Having the nation of Tir Na Nog angered at you would be substantially less of an inconvenience to a corporation or organization than being banned in Atlanta. Pepsi cares more about Coke's iron grip in Georgia than it does about what side Tir Na Nog takes in the cola wars.

So the Germans wanted an excuse to drop Earthdawn easter eggs in their own language. I don't care, that sounds pretty reasonable.

-Frank

That's only one part of the facts i dislike about Pom. Tir Na Nog is Ireland, and Ireland is somehow... more fitting to have a fairy-tale kingdom Not that it's the best-wrritten piece of canon, but it was nice. And it didn't appear just to be there because "the amis have one too!".

Ah, i see. It was just because you wrote of "retroactively" changings and that made me wonder.

Ok, i'll do so tomorrow. Maybe i even might get a reply... but i'm still having the opinion that the german crew needs to do a lot of work in personal PR. Actually a good part of the german players don't like their work too much. And the crappy translated last books don't help to change that opinion.

Now don't get me wrong - I don't really know what I'm talking about. I haven't read the German-only source material. But Grimm's Fairy Tales are actually from the modern-day BRD, so having a "fairy tale kingdom" somewhere in there seems pretty reasonable.

Did they put it in a dumb place? Wear white socks after Labor Day? What does the German-only stuff actually say about the Pom that's so angering?

As someone who hasn't seen this material, the argument needs to be framed a bit better before I can even see where different sides are coming from.

-Frank

My question is why do the German (speaking) consumers get three full blown settings in Runner Havens as opposed to only the two that the rest of us pay for? Why do the German speaking people need a bonus incentive that the rest of us don't? Why do they deserve bonus material more than the rest of us?

And I still see no real reason for Die 6 Welt (the Sixth World) to be a German-only release. Even if it does contain other German-only information ... in fact, especially because it contains such info.

As for the suggestion that I learn German, I don't believe there should be the need. Shadowrun is printed in both German and English, and the information should be available to those people that speak either language.

For me it is quite difficult to tell what is wrong with Pomorya. It does not have the right look and feel. The historical background of the other two dendelion-eater kingdoms is much more convinving concerning the metaplot and the Earthdawn-Shadowrun crossover. Pomorya leaves the impression, that the German authors simply saw Tir Tairngire and Tir Na Nog (and I don't give a frag on the correct spelling of those, never liked these fragging dandelion-eaters after all) and said "Uuuuuh! Pixypixies...me wanna too pixypixies!".

It is as unfitting to German all day reality as all those small feuding city states are. I would say 95% of all Germans see themselves as Germans first (well in fact nationality isn't veryimportant for most of us) and second as Saxons, Lower Saxons, Hamburgers ... Okay, the Bavarians are different. But who really cares? If you take a look at modern day Germany in my opinion there are two distinct possibilities. The first is the development of some kind of "economy-first" police state dominated by corporations. Our former secretary of the interior, Otto Schilly, paved the way for that by introducing lots of new laws cutting down important civil rights and by fighting out his personal feud with the press. The new conservative government will as sure as hell not be any better. The second possibility is, that over the next 50 years the neo-conservatives will put so much pressure onto the people, that the country explodes and the people start fighting back. That could lead to something a bit similar to the official SR background, but surely not to that crap.

EDIT: Germany, even medieval Germany has nothing to do with what is described in Grimm's Fairy Tails. Especially because the english translations are more than only bad.

The German SR community is indeed large - in Germany the status of SR is quite different from the USA.
As I understand it, in the US Shadowrun is one RPG among many, with D&D as the unmatched market leader.

In Germany, FanPro's The Dark Eye fantasy system has been the market leader for the last 20 years and it's likely to stay that way.
Next come D&D, SR and WoD, with the exact order changing every year.

Nearly every German RPG gamer has at one point tried SR or at least knows about the game, you will find SR games at every convention, SR books at every FLGS, SR novels* in most bookstores.

(*Aside from translated English novels ~20 original German SR novels have been published in the last years.)

The short answers (that others have already mentioned) are: a) because they have to wait several more months for the German version when the English version is already available to them; b) because the language barrier isn't as much of a problem for them as it is for Americans, and as such they deserve extra local focus material for buying German production rather than English version (FanPro D needs to make a living too); c) because they pay slightly more for their version of the book; and d) because every licensee is allowed to produce their own content (if the new French license goes ahead I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar add-ons there); e) finally (to quote MYSTIC) given that the Hamburg was picked for a 2000-word writeup in the English version it would be considered "barely enough to introduce someone not familiar with the older AGS books to the city and would be completely dissatisfying to someone whos already knows Germany".

Then there's relevance and mileage: is a 5$ (USD) hike in the price worth it to find out there's a bar called Empire in St. Pauli, a fence named Anya in the harbor district and the name of the Senator for Public Health - when the main plots, characters and forces about town will be in the shorter version anyway (a price increase should also take into account the context of buying 4 new core SR books in the next year and a couple of other sourcebooks).

There's also the issue of practicality: besides adding 5$ (USD) to the price tag, given writing and translation time the add-on would delay production up to 4-5 months (further).

I want to reiterate this, because it seems to be something people are missing: The German add-on is always written after the English drafts are finished. This makes it impossible to include them in an English book even were a translation worthwhile commercially. Then there is also the fact that until Christian Lonsing took over the line the material produced for Shadowrun D was often incompatible with canon (or just plain munchkin). Finally, there is the matter that even though canon is mostly integrated now, a lot of the German material is littered with local references, old characters and plot details (that date back to the FASA years, this is the case with Shockwaves, but also B:ADL/T:AGS and Die 6 Welt) that would be coming completely out of the blue - and are for the most part pretty useless without the context.

Going to the trouble of translating, properly editing the English, explaining such references or replacing them, weeding out "legacy"inconsistencies, explaining who many of the major German players mentioned are, providing the backstories required, etc, for a product that's an atypical unproven quantity (a 500+ page trade paperback format book), written specifically by German authors for a German audience, is not a feasible enterprise or an acceptable risk for a company with the size and manpower of FanPro US (particularly not when its currently completely geared towards churning out the new core books).

That's one of the possibilities I meant when I said:

Personally, I think this sort of add-on stuff on Holostreets would be perfect (same with the German-language chapter of System Failure), however, until Holostreets is up and running there's really no point in speculating about this possibility. Bear in mind there are other possibilities, though the terms of FanPro's license with Wizkids does limit us somewhat.

Note this would still not be feasible for other types of material like Die 6 Welt or the German Hot Spots books in the works for next year.

Why do you think that DS is not representative for the whole SR-community?

Why do you think it is?